Is this the most Dangerous Remington Yet? - Page 2

bamaranger · June 2, 2010, 02:22 AM

I am willing to bet that if you take an 870, load and fire it, and VERY consciously
put heavy pressure forward on the forearm, resisting same by drawing the stock and pistol grip rearward into the shoulder, that the bolt will not move a bit.

I believe that in the instances noted, the shooter is drawing the gun rearward with BOTH hands. At the shot, when the action unlocks, the slide comes rearward resultant of the shooters muscle tension as much as anything else.

Scattergun Bob · June 2, 2010, 02:52 AM

I don’t often post in this forum anymore; I mostly read interesting threads and answer the many PM’s (personal messages) sent to me. I thought I would take the time to help you understand what is happening with your scattergun.

FIRST, the advice you received from Remington is absolutely correct. It is the for-end thru the action bars that control the locking and unlocking of the bolt assembly. The process is controlled by two parts the slide assembly that the actual breach bolt rides on (a flat looking piece that has a hump with some slots cut into it) and the action bar lock (you see part of this piece from the outside of the gun as a button to push up when you wish to open the action without pulling the trigger once the action has been cocked).

You can feel and hear how this works by a simple test, called stalling the slide. It is item #7 on the armorer’s check list when an 870 is returned for service/upgrade.

Stalling the slide

1st check to make sure that your scattergun is completely empty of live rounds.

2nd rack the action (this cocks the hammer and engages the action bar lock against the slide assembly).

3rd pull the fore-end to the rear apply rearward pressure.

4th maintaining rearward pressure with the fore-end pull the trigger, you will notice that the fore-end is stalled and will not unlock the bolt.

5th now release the rearward pressure and you will hear the action bar lock spring up, the fore-end will now move to the rear allowing the slide assembly to cam the locking bolt down and the entire bolt assembly will travel to the rear.

If your gun functions as described, then it is absolutely safe and is working as advertised. If it fails this check, then it needs to be sent to Remington for repair.
It is hard sometimes to know which is the problem the shooter or the gun. What you describe is a common issue and if you would like the fix, feel free to PM me and we will solve it.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Scattergun Bob · June 2, 2010, 03:01 AM

You are 100% correct in your observation and is one of the primary reasons for many of the malfunctions cataloged in this forum

. Knowing how to correctly operate the scattergun surprisingly fixes lots of faults in the gun.

OR as my daddy use to say, it's most likely the Indian not the arrow when the target is missed.

Good Luck & Stay Safe

zippy13 · June 2, 2010, 03:47 AM

Scattergun Bob, my friend, it's comforting to know you're still keeping a watchful eye on the shotgun forum. I was hoping this thread would merit your sage advice.
Cheers,
Pete

Hog Buster · June 2, 2010, 10:46 AM

300 magman

If the gun is locked up on firing I don’t think there’s any saftey problem with it. I would just like to know why the bolt is opening as much as it is after the shot. It seems to me that the uncocked hammer would restrict any excessive rearward movement of the bolt.

Try this. Pump the empty gun and place the barrel pointing up. Without touching the slide pull the trigger. Notice how much the slide and bolt move to the rear when it unlocks. Let me know what you observe.

Check it against your old 870s too......

theghostrider · June 2, 2010, 12:20 PM

I just checked my 870, and it works like it's supposed to. I've shot Ithaca, Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester. All except the Winchester will lock up untill the rearward pressure is released (I understand that Winchester Model 12's, and older Ithaca does not). My Winchester has a rotary bolt, and doesn't lock up like the Mossberg, or Remingtons. The Winchester and Benelli's are designed that way for faster pumping. The Winchester are sometimes refered to as Speedpump.

300magman · June 2, 2010, 12:23 PM

Hog Buster I just tried what you asked and with my old 870 absolutely no movement was detected. But with the slide unlocked after pulling the trigger I was able to get the old gun to open about 1/16th of an inch by picking it straight up about 3" and letting it fall on its recoil pad (my crude simulation of recoil)

The new 870 also did not have much of a reaction, opening perhaps 1/32 to 1/16 at Most upon trigger pull, but the same crude test opened the action to about the same point as seen in the first photo I put up.......the slide is slightly slicker and moves more freely than the old gun.

jaguarxk120 · June 2, 2010, 12:26 PM

I think the Winchester Model 12 does the samething, opens automaticly on firing.

I find it quite odd one poster is complaning about the action opening and a few posts down someone is complaning about ejection problems. I can't help but wonder because they are both 870's.

300magman · June 2, 2010, 12:32 PM

Scattergun Bob I just tried the test which you posted, with both my old 870 and the new 870 in question. There were drastically different results.

Without question the old gun passed the test, virtually Any pressure, my estimate would be under 1lb on the slide and the old gun stays locked up solid until I release my forward hand from the slide and let the pressure off.

I tried this test over a dozen times with the new gun and this was the result.
The new gun Always opens upon trigger pull with similar pressure, stepping up the pressure to a solid 8-10lbs (again my estimate of how hard I was pulling) and the new 870 will sometimes stay locked up but 90% of the time it still releases the lock and opens.
Now pulling with all the force I can muster, the new gun stays locked up about 80-90% of the time.

I am now back to thinking I likely have a problem.

Hog Buster · June 2, 2010, 06:57 PM

300magman

Interesting! Thanks I'll PM you later.

jaguarxk120 · June 2, 2010, 07:49 PM

300magman this may sound a little off the wall but could you try this. Place a long dowel rod down the barrel, long enough to stick out a few inches. Then with the action cocked and closed pull the trigger. Don't touch the forearm, just press aginst the breach bolt with the dowel rod and pull the trigger.

Please tell us what happens.

jmr40 · June 3, 2010, 02:03 PM

I doubt there is anything wrong with your gun. I've been shooting 870's as well as just about every other pump for years. They all do this to a degree. Some need more pressure kept on the foreend to keep it closed than others. Never had the first problem. I would consider it a desireable feature rather than a problem.

Maromero · June 3, 2010, 02:22 PM

Seems everyone wants to gang-up against Remington upon the slightest provocation.

June 2, 2010, 02:22 AM	#26
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	muscle tension I am willing to bet that if you take an 870, load and fire it, and VERY consciously put heavy pressure forward on the forearm, resisting same by drawing the stock and pistol grip rearward into the shoulder, that the bolt will not move a bit. I believe that in the instances noted, the shooter is drawing the gun rearward with BOTH hands. At the shot, when the action unlocks, the slide comes rearward resultant of the shooters muscle tension as much as anything else.

June 2, 2010, 02:52 AM	#27
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	I don’t often post in this forum anymore; I mostly read interesting threads and answer the many PM’s (personal messages) sent to me. I thought I would take the time to help you understand what is happening with your scattergun. FIRST, the advice you received from Remington is absolutely correct. It is the for-end thru the action bars that control the locking and unlocking of the bolt assembly. The process is controlled by two parts the slide assembly that the actual breach bolt rides on (a flat looking piece that has a hump with some slots cut into it) and the action bar lock (you see part of this piece from the outside of the gun as a button to push up when you wish to open the action without pulling the trigger once the action has been cocked). You can feel and hear how this works by a simple test, called stalling the slide. It is item #7 on the armorer’s check list when an 870 is returned for service/upgrade. Stalling the slide 1st check to make sure that your scattergun is completely empty of live rounds. 2nd rack the action (this cocks the hammer and engages the action bar lock against the slide assembly). 3rd pull the fore-end to the rear apply rearward pressure. 4th maintaining rearward pressure with the fore-end pull the trigger, you will notice that the fore-end is stalled and will not unlock the bolt. 5th now release the rearward pressure and you will hear the action bar lock spring up, the fore-end will now move to the rear allowing the slide assembly to cam the locking bolt down and the entire bolt assembly will travel to the rear. If your gun functions as described, then it is absolutely safe and is working as advertised. If it fails this check, then it needs to be sent to Remington for repair. It is hard sometimes to know which is the problem the shooter or the gun. What you describe is a common issue and if you would like the fix, feel free to PM me and we will solve it. Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

June 2, 2010, 03:01 AM	#28
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	bamaranger You are 100% correct in your observation and is one of the primary reasons for many of the malfunctions cataloged in this forum. Knowing how to correctly operate the scattergun surprisingly fixes lots of faults in the gun. OR as my daddy use to say, it's most likely the Indian not the arrow when the target is missed. Good Luck & Stay Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

June 2, 2010, 10:46 AM	#30
Hog Buster Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2009 Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana Posts: 772	300 magman If the gun is locked up on firing I don’t think there’s any saftey problem with it. I would just like to know why the bolt is opening as much as it is after the shot. It seems to me that the uncocked hammer would restrict any excessive rearward movement of the bolt. Try this. Pump the empty gun and place the barrel pointing up. Without touching the slide pull the trigger. Notice how much the slide and bolt move to the rear when it unlocks. Let me know what you observe. Check it against your old 870s too...... __________________ Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Hog Buster; June 2, 2010 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Addendum

June 2, 2010, 06:57 PM	#35
Hog Buster Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2009 Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana Posts: 772	300magman Interesting! Thanks I'll PM you later. __________________ Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson

June 2, 2010, 03:47 AM	#29
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Scattergun Bob, my friend, it's comforting to know you're still keeping a watchful eye on the shotgun forum. I was hoping this thread would merit your sage advice. Cheers, Pete

June 2, 2010, 12:20 PM	#31
theghostrider Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2008 Posts: 9	I just checked my 870, and it works like it's supposed to. I've shot Ithaca, Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester. All except the Winchester will lock up untill the rearward pressure is released (I understand that Winchester Model 12's, and older Ithaca does not). My Winchester has a rotary bolt, and doesn't lock up like the Mossberg, or Remingtons. The Winchester and Benelli's are designed that way for faster pumping. The Winchester are sometimes refered to as Speedpump.

June 2, 2010, 12:23 PM	#32
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Hog Buster I just tried what you asked and with my old 870 absolutely no movement was detected. But with the slide unlocked after pulling the trigger I was able to get the old gun to open about 1/16th of an inch by picking it straight up about 3" and letting it fall on its recoil pad (my crude simulation of recoil) The new 870 also did not have much of a reaction, opening perhaps 1/32 to 1/16 at Most upon trigger pull, but the same crude test opened the action to about the same point as seen in the first photo I put up.......the slide is slightly slicker and moves more freely than the old gun.

June 2, 2010, 12:26 PM	#33
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	I think the Winchester Model 12 does the samething, opens automaticly on firing. I find it quite odd one poster is complaning about the action opening and a few posts down someone is complaning about ejection problems. I can't help but wonder because they are both 870's.

June 2, 2010, 12:32 PM	#34
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Scattergun Bob I just tried the test which you posted, with both my old 870 and the new 870 in question. There were drastically different results. Without question the old gun passed the test, virtually Any pressure, my estimate would be under 1lb on the slide and the old gun stays locked up solid until I release my forward hand from the slide and let the pressure off. I tried this test over a dozen times with the new gun and this was the result. The new gun Always opens upon trigger pull with similar pressure, stepping up the pressure to a solid 8-10lbs (again my estimate of how hard I was pulling) and the new 870 will sometimes stay locked up but 90% of the time it still releases the lock and opens. Now pulling with all the force I can muster, the new gun stays locked up about 80-90% of the time. I am now back to thinking I likely have a problem.

June 2, 2010, 07:49 PM	#36
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	300magman this may sound a little off the wall but could you try this. Place a long dowel rod down the barrel, long enough to stick out a few inches. Then with the action cocked and closed pull the trigger. Don't touch the forearm, just press aginst the breach bolt with the dowel rod and pull the trigger. Please tell us what happens.

June 3, 2010, 02:03 PM	#37
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	I doubt there is anything wrong with your gun. I've been shooting 870's as well as just about every other pump for years. They all do this to a degree. Some need more pressure kept on the foreend to keep it closed than others. Never had the first problem. I would consider it a desireable feature rather than a problem.

June 3, 2010, 02:22 PM	#38
Maromero Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Outside the continental U Posts: 752	Seems everyone wants to gang-up against Remington upon the slightest provocation.