30 Carbine equals 357 mag from lever gun?

[Radny97]

This has probably been addressed before, but I thought I would ask.
I was just shopping ammo online and I saw a deal for Remington's 30 Carbine load of a fmj round nose 110 grain bullet. The load data accompanying the listing indicates that it should do about 1990 fps.
That got me thinking that that is roughly equivalent to the fps you can expect from a regularly loaded (not exceptionally hot) 357 mag 125 grain bullet out of the 18 inch barrel of a lever gun. Checking ballistics by the inch seems to support that.
So . . . are 30 Carbine and 357 mag from a lever gun roughly equivalent?
And if that is the case, you would think someone might start producing a semi-automatic rifle in 357 mag? I know I would be interested. Thoughts?

[mavracer]

It's close as long as you stay with light bullets and stay out of the boutique ammo. Let the 357 breath a little so to speak and it'll do 2000 with a 158.

[COSteve]

Yep, I handload both my M1 Carbine and for both my 20" and 24" 357mag Rossi leverguns as well as my Uberti 7.5" SA Cav model pistol. Out of an 18" or longer barrel, the 357mag is superior to the 30 Carbine out of the M1 Carbine at every distance up to and including 300yds. Superior in accuracy, retained velocity, and muzzle energy.

30 Carbine in M1 Carbine:
. . . . Muzzle . . . . . . . . . . . . 100yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 200yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 300yds
2000fps/977ft/lbs . . . . 1566fps/599ft/lbs . . . . 1235fps/373ft/lbs . . . . 1035fps/262ft/lbs

357mag in 20" Carbine:
. . . . Muzzle . . . . . . . . . . . . 100yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 200yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 300yds
1789fps/1123ft/lbs . . . 1418fps/705ft/lbs . . . . 1151fps/465ft/lbs . . . . 999fps/350ft/lbs

357mag in 24" Rifle:
. . . . Muzzle . . . . . . . . . . . . 100yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 200yds . . . . . . . . . . . . 300yds
1822fps/1165ft/lbs . . . 1444fps/732ft/lbs . . . . 1168fps/479ft/lbs . . . . 1008fps/356ft/lbs

** With my hot 158grn loads pushing 2000fps or with 158grn Buffalo Bore Heavy 357mag loads pushing their advertised 2153fps out of an 18 carbine, the 357mag's advantage over the M1 Carbine is even greater. Bigger, heavier bullet traveling faster always wins.

Yep, a 158grn JSP, full power 357mag loaded with H110 powder out of a 24" levergun is surprisingly accurate at 300yds while the 110grn 30 Carbine is not. Yes, it can reach 300yds but no, it's not very accurate at all in either of my carbines.

However, while I have 2 Rossis and 2 M1 Carbines (as well as ARs and other weapons) my HD choice is the M1 Carbine because HD range is measured in feet, not yds.

[reddog81]

It would be possible, but I'm sure it would be expensive and there's probably not a ton of demand.

.357 out of a long barrel can surpass .30 carbine, but the 30 carbine was a purpose built round for a purpose built gun. The .357 has tons of bullet types, power levels, and wasn't designed to be fired in an auto loading firearm.

You can buy a lever action for $500. If you want a .357 rifle I'd find a decent lever action.

[COSteve]

As a close range brush gun, Ruger use to produce a semi-auto 44mag. Actually, it produced two different versions, the first was a the basis for the wildly successful 10/22 that came out a year or two later but was discontinued in the 1980s. The second version was a variant of the Mini-14. You can find them for sale on the interweb.



I've sent MIKE Ruger messages suggesting that he authorize production of the newer version in 357mag as long as they can come out with at least a 10rd detachable mag that feeds 357mag ammo reliably. So far no news.

I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Maybe two if one came blued and one in SS.

[jetinteriorguy]

I'm with you Steve, I'd love a semi auto .357 ten rounder. That second version looks sweet, this would round out my Henry, and my 627 S&W eight shooter. Next would be a .41 for the same trio.

[1stmar]

I'd buy one too. Rotary magazine would eliminate any feeding issues but you won't get 10rds in it. I knew about the deer slayer but have never seen the bottom rifle before.

[rightside]

ID

[rightside]

Ole' Bill ain't doing much talking these days.


(Let me know if you get a reply!)

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Kinda like the 35 Remington verses the 30-30.
Winchesters little cartridge does slightly better in the stats department in comparison of the two out to 500 yards. Where the two separate. 35 Remy is 5 calibers larger in mass. Which gives the bigger bullet of the two bragging rights for killing ability. "Larger the wound channel is. The quicker the animals demise"_ I think my theroy applies to the 30 carbine verses 357 Mag also. As the stats between the 30 carbine and 357 mag are quite similar.
I'm sure someone else has a different opinion. No problems here with that additional logic being commented.

[Guv]

So you are comparing a 30 Carbine 110FMJ to a 357Mag rifle with a 125gr SP or HP?
I don't think they are even in the same league.
Are there 125 gr .357 FMJ bullets?

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by costeve

I've sent Bill Ruger messages suggesting that he authorize production of the newer version in 357mag as long as they can come out with at least a 10rd detachable mag that feeds 357mag ammo reliably. So far no news.

How are you sending these messages, and how long are you willing to wait for an answer?

On Saturday, 6 July 2002, at age 86, after a period of failing health, Ruger died at home in Prescott, Arizona.

[Radny97]

Yes there are lots of 125 gn 357 bullets that are fmj.

[jmr40]

It depends on what you want to do. If you stay with lighter 357 bullets they are close. But 357 is available with 180-200 gr bullets that take it to another level 30 carbine can't touch.

[Scorch]

The 357 is no slouch, and bullets are available for big game hunting. 30 Carbine, on the other hand, is not overly well represented in hunting circles. Not that it won't kill deer, just not well liked. And a semi-auto magazine fed rimmed cartridge would be a pain to design and keep running.

I've sent Bill Ruger messages suggesting that he authorize production of the newer version in 357mag

Let me know if he answers. He's been dead lo these many years now (died in 2002). But I bet he would still not make them. He never really liked semi-auto rifles with detachable magazines.

[44 AMP]

If you stay with lighter 357 bullets they are close.

Not sure how you define "close".

The .30 with a 110gr strains but hits 2000fps with a warm load.
I've clocked 125grJHP handloads from my Marlin at 2200fps.

200fps with a bullet 10% heavier (125gr) to me isn't "close".

[James K]

There have been folks who thought the Army should have had the carbine made in .357. Aside from the problems of a rimmed case in a detachable box magazine, they probably never even thought of it. Winchester developed the rifle and based the cartridge on its existing .32 WSL, presenting the Army with a package that worked and met specifications. With Axis armies on the march, nobody was sitting around debating about velocity and energy figures.

Jim

[ThomasT]

I've sent Bill Ruger messages suggesting that he authorize production of the newer version in 357mag as long as they can come out with at least a 10rd detachable mag that feeds 357mag ammo reliably. So far no news.

Well if he replies we would all be interested. I know he is gone but he didn't go to the warm place. I bet he is redesigning lightning bolts and thunder clouds but only with a 10 round capacity.

And while you are looking at full power loads you are forgetting the the 357 lever gun will shoot popgun loads that the 30 carbine could never handle. The 357 lever action can be a very versatile gun to own. I have loaded full power loads and pop gun round ball loads from mine. It would be the last gun I would ever sell. Its going with me to the happy hunting ground.

[shootniron]

Well if he replies we would all be interested. I know he is gone but he didn't go to the warm place. I bet he is redesigning lightning bolts and thunder clouds but only with a 10 round capacity.

Many people do not realize what a self-serving turncoat, he was.

[Radny97]

I don't think it would be that hard to develop a semi-auto for a rimmed cartridge. 22lr is a rimmed cartridge. As mentioned above, something along the 10/22 lines on a larger scale would do the trick.

[44 AMP]

And a semi-auto magazine fed rimmed cartridge would be a pain to design and keep running.

Like the .22LR??


Desert Eagle and Coonan have pretty well shown it can be done in .357 Magnum. The SVT40 (and others) have shown it can be done in rifles. The BREN gun (and some Soviet designs) show it can be done in a LMG.

Feeding a rimmed round through a semi or full auto action is not the virtually impossible task many make it out to be. Yes, it takes a different and more complicated approach than a rimless round, but it can, and has been done, A LOT!

The main problem with designing and making a semi auto .357 Mag carbine is essentially there is no demand, and no matter which way you overcome the engineering challenges, you aren't going to please everyone.

Low demand, because there are so many other choices currently, that cover the niche the .357 fills in a carbine. I don't see how you can build a semi .357 carbine with the easy handling lines of a lever gun AND a 10 round detachable box mag, that people would accept in terms of looks, performance AND COST.

You're welcome to try, maybe you can make it a viable proposition. So far as I know, no one has, so the field is open. Good Luck.

[4V50 Gary]

rightside said:

Ole' Bill ain't doing much talking these days.


(Let me know if you get a reply!)

Need a ouija board to get a response from him. Anyway, if there's a market and a profit from it, Ruger will make it. Remember that it costs $$$ and lost revenue when a production line is halted, tooling changed and then another model is made.

That's one of the reason why the XGI (7.62 mm version of the Mini-14) was never made. It cost $1 mil just to tool up and Bill Ruger figured he could make $1 mil by continuing production of the Mini-14. Why spend money when you don't have to?

[COSteve]

Sorry guys, I meant Mike Ruger, current CEO of Ruger and you can send him a message by going to Ruger's site and clicking "Tell the CEO" at the bottom.

So you are comparing a 30 Carbine 110FMJ to a 357Mag rifle with a 125gr SP or HP?
I don't think they are even in the same league.
Are there 125 gr .357 FMJ bullets?

I guess my post #3 wasn't clear. I'm comparing 110grn, .308 bullets with a BC of .166 with 158grn, .357 bullets with a BC of .177.

Yes, there are plenty of 125grn RN 357mag bullets. It's the bullet's shape and weight that affects BC and that makes for a good comparison ballistically over longer ranges.

[kilimanjaro]

The 357 is a great round but absolutely useless at penetrating Chinese Communist padded cotton uniforms.

Should be made in 1911A1 configuration instead, that will be far superior.

[Guv]

What about a 357Sig or 10mm carbine? Both rimless and should benefit from the longer barrel. The 10mm would be like a modern day 401SL.