What is better for home defense? Stock or Pistol Grip?

[G30 Man]

Thanks!

[kframe19]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G30 Man:
Thanks![/quote]

Stock, DEFINITELY STOCK.

Pistol grips look mean and nasty, and most people, without the proper training, can't hit a thing with them.

There are a LOT of things to recommend the stocked version of a shotgun over a pistol gripped version:

1. Better ability to control the gun during firing.

2. You can actually aim the stocked shotgun (ok, ok, point). Try doing that with a pistol-gripped gun, and then fire it, and it will end up in the middle of your forehead.

3. If you get to the point where you grapple with someone, the fact that the stock is on it makes it easier to retain. You get it locked in under your arm, and it will be tough to yank loose.

One of the most common things a person will do when shooting a pistol-gripped shotgun is to shoot WAY high.

Unless you're willing to seek out a specialist's course in how to handle a stockless shotgun, I highly advise you to stick with the stocked version.

[Dave McC]

OK, one more time...

During my career with the Md Dept of Public Safety, I taught hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot,including with shotguns. For part of that time, we had folding w/ PG stocks in some rapid response vehicles,and all troops had to qualify with them, shooting from the hip.

Instructors had to qualify to 90%,and we shot demos,etc. All in all, I shot hundreds of rounds a year. Most troops found it more difficult to qualify with the PG and hip shooting, some found it impossible.

In an AS scenario, I'll shoot my shotguns from the shoulder and aimed at anything more than contact range.

I know some pretty serious WIHTF types, NONE of them have PGs on their shotguns, except for a specialized VERY CQ tool,and not often then.

[Coronach]

Stock.

The shotgun evolved without a pistol grip and with a stock for a multitude of reasons.

This is a variation on a basic law of nature: "If nobody uses it, there is a reason."

That said, go with what YOU are most comfortable shooting. If you really have practiced a LOT with a pistol grip and find it better than a stock, shoot a pistol grip. But most people I have seen with PG shotguns (and thats not very many) get serious wrist pain after a couple of rounds, and either go back to stock shotguns or (stupidly) keep the PG and just don't practice.

Whichever you choose, you GOTTA practice.

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

[Coronach]

&gt;2. You can actually aim the stocked shotgun &gt;(ok, ok, point). Try doing that with a &gt;pistol-gripped gun, and then fire it, and it &gt;will end up in the middle of your forehead.

Heh!

&gt;3. If you get to the point where you grapple &gt;with someone, the fact that the stock is on &gt;it makes it easier to retain. You get it &gt;locked in under your arm, and it will be &gt;tough to yank loose.

Plus, with a stock shotgun, the BUTTSTROKE is a lovely option.

*THUNK*

Mike

[Jeff Thomas]

Everyone above has made the point.

And, take a tactical shotgun course. After your first 20 or 30 rounds of buckshot and slugs, you'll be glad you've got a stock. A 12 gauge does have a bit of a kick ... I honestly can't imagine using a PG to shoot buckshot and slugs.

[Monkeyleg]

Ok, so what is everyone's experience with a shotgun that has a traditional shoulder stock _and_ a pistol grip? The PG on a rifle has never seemed to affect aiming for me. Just curious about the experiences of the veteran shotgun shooters.

Dick

[Dave McC]

My experience with full stocks w/ PGs is limited,other than the military. I haven't noted any serious downside.

However, the standard stock works very well indeed.

[kframe19]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monkeyleg:
Ok, so what is everyone's experience with a shotgun that has a traditional shoulder stock _and_ a pistol grip? The PG on a rifle has never seemed to affect aiming for me. Just curious about the experiences of the veteran shotgun shooters.

Dick[/quote]

I look at a pistol grip/stock setup as being about the same. Ideally, if someone gets hold of the muzzle of the gun a pistolgrip stock is going to make it a little easier to hang onto.

At the same time, it will make it a little harder to effectively buttstroke someone.

[Rosco Benson]

Go with a stock and AIM the shotgun. At home defense ranges, the piece will need to be aimed almost as precisely as a rifle.

As to this "butt-stroking" stuff; if you need to use the shotgun as an impact weapon, just drive the muzzle forcibly into your opponent's face, throat, or gut...just like a good bayonet thrust. The butt-stroke is easier to dodge or negate by moving inside its arc. Moreover, the butt-stroke often ends up with one's muzzle pointing reward over one's "off" shoulder...back toward friendlies...bad juju.

Rosco

[Coronach]

My admittedly limited experience with PG-stocked shotguns is that they are like...erm. hmm...how to say this cleanly? A PG on a stocked shotgun is like bull nipples.

Try it. If you like it, *shrug*. To me it just seems to get in the way. But I've only used stocked shotguns extensively, so it might be prior training interfering.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

[This message has been edited by Coronach (edited April 17, 2000).]

[Art Eatman]

Told to me by John Satterwhite: Consider a tactical situation, where you are doing some sort of search for a bad guy, noise source in the night, whatever. You will likely be at a sort of port arms, as that helps with retention and is a quick position from which to point and shoot, or club or butt-stroke.

Try that with a full-stock pistol-grip gun: Awkward for the wrist, right? Poor force-control for anything other than a shot from a horizontal-carry position. And so forth and so on. Awkward is Bad.

(John Satterwhite, aside from being a US skeet and trap champ and on a couple of US Olympic teams, demonstrates trick shots. My favorite is his throwing seven claybirds out by hand, and then shooting all of them before they hit the ground, with his 870. When guys like that talk, I listen.)

Regards, Art

[robins]

OK, help a novice shotgun guy out. Nearly all of the best-in-class combat rifles have a pistol-grip/stock combination, so if it works for them, why not a combat shotgun? I understand the reasoning if all you have is a pistol grip and no stock, but my Benelli M1 aims great from the shoulder as well as shoots well from the hip with the pistol/stock combo.

[jthuang]

Go for the standard stock. The pistol grip (with full stock) may be slightly preferable for houseclearing in the underarm assault position, but you can do it almost as easily with a standard stock.

The pistol grip (no stock) has little use beyond a dedicated breaching shotgun. Avoid these if you're not looking for a door-busting gun.

The standard stock will allow you to extend the capacity (assuming state and local law allow) of a semi-auto shotgun. As mentioned by Erick, it also aids in weapon retention situations.

I suspect the reason why the current issue military shotgun (the Benelli M4) has a pistol grip is to avoid conditional branching issues when training. They're probably thinking that since the M16/M4 has a pistol grip, the combat shotgun should also have one to simplify training. Who knows.

Justin



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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

[Art Eatman]

robins, I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough: It's not the shooting. It's the tactical "what-ifs" before any shooting.

One of the what-ifs is a bad guy popping out of shadows and grabbing for your gun. Anything but a port-arms position leaves you vulnerable. With a pistol-grip stock, your hand is in an awkward position, your wrist is bent, and you just cannot put out enough force to use the gun for a downward clubbing motion nor for a buttstroke.

If you have the gun mounted to the shoulder, or horizontal from the hip, there are a ton of guys out there who, from a range of six to ten feet, can take that gun away from you and make you eat it.

Again, it's not the shooting I'm talking about. It's all the bad stuff that can happen before one perceives the actual need to shoot.

Regards, Art

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've taken a tactical shotgun class and fired pistol grips. No comparison in recoil control and accuracy.

You simply cannot aim the pistol grip. We did a set of hostage rescue exercises with tactical buckshoot. Now that's spooky but you might have to save a family member. No way,
you want to do that with a nonaimed pistol grip.

As far as aiming it, I know three guys who have eaten the gun trying it. One who could do it was a heavy lifter and wrassler. I will attest though that sufficient Shiner and sitting under a tree in the Hill Country will cure pistol grip mouth.

[Patrick Graham]

If you use pistol grips on a Mossberg 500 or Rem 870 are limited in the ammunition you can use. 1 oz non mag game loads are great. 3 inch magnums could be a danger to the user. With 3 inch mags you can't hold the pistol grip against your side unless have body armor on. You will knock the wind out of yourself. You could get the famous bloody nose if you try to hold it far enough in front of your face to aim it. Been there, done that, bought the bloody tee shirt on both of those. I also recommend Ace bandages wrapped around your wrist and around your thumb joint, they help with mags.

Heavy, gas operated semi autos with pistol grips are bound to be different but I've only used pumps.

[Solitar]

Art, you have some good points on the pre-shoot tactical considerations. Retention of the pistol grip weapon is definitely inferior to a full stock held in port arms.

Patrick, The wicked recoil you speak of must be specific to the Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. My experience with 3" Remington Express magnums 000 or #4 buck in a Winchester 1200 is nowhere near what you describe. Shooting from the hip or slightly in front thereof works out quite well. I can place my shots within a few inches of my desired impact point. Practice is the key. But I admit that the 3" magnums do result in the feeling of a slightly stoved wrist and thus I wouldn't want to shoot a few dozen of them per day in that fashion. As to risk to one's thumb, I do not understand from where that would arise if the grip is properly and firmly held. The recoil should go directly into the base of the wrist and be absorbed by one's forearm NOT off-center where it impacts the thumb. Aiming from the hip, at ranges of 5 to 8 yards, yields adequate control for the job. Why your guns should make you wish for body armor is beyond me.

Over 8 yards range one should definitely transition to a shoulder stock (as in a stout folding version) so that one can aim from a shoulder mount. I admit to not trying to aim a pistol grip from a high/in-front-of-face position like one does with a revolver. I just assumed that such a position would make gun control near to impossible.

Glenn, as to rescuing a, perhaps, family member close to a perp, I can't see where any shotgun would be wise. One needs a rifle or the experience with a pistol to be a very good shot. An over/under shotgun/rifle may be the ticket in that situation.

[Dave McC]

Hueco,this is still America. If you want to bet your life on shooting from the hip,so be it.

All I'm saying is that after firing hundreds of rounds from the hip, any use past contact distances will see my weapon at the shoulder and aimed.

[Patrick Graham]

Solitar
Try shooting 3 in. mags with pistol grip tight aginst your side (ie: ribs). You put the stock on in a hurry.
The mossberg 500 is a wicked little gun with pistol grips.. wicked to the user. :0

[Solitar]

Patrick,
Okay, you've got me curious. I guess I wasn't holding the shotgun close and tight enough to my side. Nevertheless, I still managed to blow holes where I wanted through a steel 55 gal drum (S&B 00 punched holes through one side, 000 magnums blew a hole through BOTH sides!). BTW - the range to the drum was about 6 yards - the maximum I'd expect in any indoors encounter.

This weekend I'll have to try what you suggest. And maybe I'll try the two handed revolver grip WITH a tree limb just above eye level. I'll hold the 1200 several inches under the limb so that the well-padded limb will catch it when it flys up and if I can't control it before it takes a chunk out of my forehead. With twice the recoil of a 44 mag, it ought to be an experience!

If all else fails, I'll go back to kicking 2 liter pop bottles through the forest with the stock unfolded so that I can aim for 15 to 25 yard shots.

[Solitar]

Patrick,
So true to my promise, I tried the Remington 1200 pistol grip with 2 3/4" S&B 00 buck and Remington 3" 000 buck from both a tightly held side position and a way out front 2-handed & locked wrist revolver grip. The latter was out of curiosity though I can't see why somebody would actually do that unless they had no folding stock and thus no other way to aim for a longer range shot.

Results: The revolver position was awkward because the weapon is so front heavy. Aiming IS possible at 10 to 30 yards but I wouldn't count on getting within a foot of my target center at 25 yards. Okay, with buckshot at that range, I would be accurate enough to be effective. The 2 3/4" shells were a handful though still controllable. Muzzle jump was probably a foot. The 3" magnums were somewhat more of a handful. Though I had a tree limb about a foot above the weapon {just in case}, I soon learned that it was unnecessary since I could control the weapon even with the magnums. Mind you, this is NOT a position I would use unless no other option was available. BTW, my wrists and thumbs are doing fine. The key is to lock one's wrists and have a solid stance. "Limp-wristing" with magnums would break one of that habit real fast!

Now as to the side position. No problem there either (as I have experienced before). I will admit that without ear protection, such a close position STILL has my ears ringing! If used in a confined space 12 gauge, just as .44 magnum, would deafen everyone nearby.

As a side observation from this experience. Compared to shooting 12 gauge from a 2-handed grip, returning to shooting .44 magnum is a pleasure. It sure puts recoil into perspective. Another side observation - the pump action partially automatically, due to recoil, racked the action after each magnum shot. This was not enough to eject the longer shells, but it would be something one should be aware would happen.

In summary, my intended use for the pistol grip is up to several yards. Beyond that I will fold out the stock and aim in the normal fashion. I concur with others here that a pistol grip without at least a foldout stock option is limited in its usefulness to very close quarters and there the tactical problems of weapon retention should be considered.

[Solitar]

DAGNABIT!
I keep getting those two confused!
Apologies to the Remington folks.
Mine is a Winchester 1200.

[Dave McC]

A coupla things, Solitar.

Suggestion....

Set up a rapid response course of some type.
Use your pet vs a standard stocked weapon of the same model. Shoot for both score and time.If you don't do better with the standard stock,EVEN AT VERY CLOSE RANGE, the first round's on me.

And, the partial racking you describe is the reason a good hand with a pump can actually cycle the action faster than some Semi autos like the A-5. A long time hunting buddy was amazed that I,and another friend with an Ithaca pump, could get off repeat shots while bird hunting faster than he could and he's an excellent shot and hunter.Shoots a little better than me, but not faster...

About folders.....

Imagine you're in a crisis, Condition Red/Black/Orange, however. The LAST thing you need is to have to make a decision as to when to deploy that stock.The standard stock presents no such dilemmas and works well at any range.

[Solitar]

Okay,
So I deploy the stock and leave it that way unless conditions require otherwise.

Thanks all for your input.