When would a shotgun be your first choice? - Page 3

Stevie-Ray · July 30, 2009, 07:33 PM

Never

Shadi Khalil · July 30, 2009, 07:46 PM

I think I would always want the shotgun or any power rifle/carbine before the handgun. My shotgun skills are not so great but its enough to get the job done.

MLeake · July 30, 2009, 07:58 PM

One post expressed concern over shotgun noise indoors. A while back I had posted the same concern - don't remember which thread, it wasn't recent. Anyway, another poster came back with a table showing actual noise levels for common SD weapons.

If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum.

A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder.

So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P.

In response to the original question, I'm still undecided as to whether I'd grab an 18.5" 12ga pump or a 16" 5.56 AR for a bump in the night. Given that the house is in the country (pasture and forest), the AR has a range advantage. The EOTech sight on the AR allows for very rapid sight acquisition, too, and its brightness is adjustable for ambient lighting conditions. Hard to beat a 30rd mag, and I've had a reasonable amount of training on M16 and M4... Guess for me, the AR is a better choice.

However, my significant other is a farmgirl, and is more comfortable with shotguns. I usually have a handgun and surefire available near wherever I sleep.

So, guess which one stays in the bedroom overnight, and which is in the safe?

(Can anybody say, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy?)

Besides, the safe isn't all that far.

Cheers,

M

Edward429451 · July 30, 2009, 08:32 PM

A SG would be pretty effective indoors for SD. Slugs only of course.

If I for some insane reason have to step outside...I'm taking a rifle.

oneounceload · July 30, 2009, 08:46 PM

While my handgun is the closest gun to my bed - it is there to allow me the chance to get to my shotgun. A shotgun beats a handgun any day, and a rifle beats a shotgun..........

johnwilliamson062 · July 30, 2009, 08:55 PM

with choice of ammo in each situation i would take a shotgun in any situation to at least 50 yards. Slugs past 30.

THe carbines you list will do any job pretty well from 5 to 400 yards, maybe a bit beyond, but there are better guns at almost all the specific ranges within that set.

ramp_tech · July 30, 2009, 10:11 PM

When I am dealing with something requires more firepower...

Shotgun only becomes my first choice when I don't have my Walther P99 and tripped out Mini-14.

ibdecent · July 30, 2009, 10:37 PM

the safety stinks for stocks with pistol grips....it's on the top of the reciever. you must remove your stronghand to reach it. granted if it hits the fan you probably will have it kicked off long before hand, but in the event you couldn't, there's precious seconds lost. Don't get me wrong, I love the mossies, best duck hunting gun for the money, but the safety is in the wrong spot for pistol grips.

dpturbo29 · July 31, 2009, 12:14 AM

As others have said, I think it comes down to familiarity. I personally reach for the shotgun because that's what I grew up with. Got my first 12 gauge when I was 12. Countless hours in fields, duck blinds, and the clays range have made that particular weapon like another appendage. For you the same may be true of your carbines (by the way - I wish I could claim a collection like that).

At ranges found inside the average home I don't believe a short barreled shotgun gives anything up to the carbine in handiness and probably has a more devastating effect on target. Another pro for the shotgun is the ability to choose from a wide range of available loads to control over penetration.

dpturbo29 · July 31, 2009, 12:40 AM

I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.

R1145 · July 31, 2009, 01:57 AM

Overall, a tactical rifle is more versatile and formidable, but reasons to choose a shotgun are:

- Quickness: No aiming, swing the gun, find the bead, fire, target goes down.

- Hit probability: A 25" cone at 25 feet, nine balls with 00 Buck.

- Rule 4: What's beyond. Lead balls are spent at short ranges relative to bullets.

So, therefore, choose a shotgun when you need to knock someone down quickly at close range without spraying lead two miles away...which covers many self-defense scenarios.

stonesfan08 · July 31, 2009, 02:29 AM

the 870 and 500 are both used by the military and both are very customizable you can get 18" to 28" barrels(maybe only 26") you can get short or long stocks. rifled barrels. but there is also the benelli supernova you might want to look at. and for uses for a shotgun HD, sporting clays, 3 gun comp., turkey hunting, deer hunting, rabbit hunting, upland game hunting, ducks and all that just about evrything but long distance shooting

sakeneko · July 31, 2009, 12:58 PM

In reference to the original question, I would prefer a shotgun to a handgun for self defense in any situation where I had the choice. But shotguns are not concealable (unless you're very tall and given to wearing trenchcoats everywhere), and not comfortable to carry with you in most circumstances. For those reasons, our shotgun (a Mossberg 500) is a home defense weapon. That includes "camp defense" if my husband and I are camping in an area where a bear or large predator is a possibility.

Otherwise, we rely on our handguns, which are almost always with us unless we're going somewhere where it is illegal to carry. Obviously, if we ever need to defend ourselves somewhere where the shotgun isn't handy, we will do so with the handguns.

Evan Thomas · July 31, 2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R1145

Hit probability: A 25" cone at 25 feet, nine balls with 00 Buck.

R1145, I think you probably mean yards, here, not feet, and if you believe the test patterns from the Box O' Truth, even at that range 25" is a bit generous. Their largest pattern with 00 buck at 12 feet was 4", and at 20 yards, 17" -- and that was for a 3" load with 15 pellets. With 9-pellet loads at 20 yards their groups were around 10".

So at room-type distances (as has been pointed out here ever so often) it's not some form of "instant spray and pray" -- ya still gotta aim.

That said, I basically agree with you... for home defense, I'll take a shotgun every time.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM

Would folks please stop saying you don't have to aim shotguns? For the love of Pete or whomever.

Also, if you want to discuss relative penetration of rounds - it is your responsibility to look that stuff up before you expound on a 223 vs 00.

Last, have you shot either in a shoot house or match - so you have a comparative view of their utility? Do you shoot matches with all three platforms - shotguns miss and you can jam them up. They are slow for repeat shots, esp. for casual users.

In the average HD situation - it is more important that you are competent with the firearm as compared to just spouting cliches.

A quality handgun and good ammo, shotgun or carbine platform will work. The shotgun always is put forward as some wonder tool, hammer of Thor (with the Judge being a mini-version). The person and training is more important. I'd be more confident with an Insights member, KRtraining staff, Givens, NTI participant than with a guy I know who has kept a 12 gauge pistol grip in his sock draw unfired for twenty years.

Brian Pfleuger · July 31, 2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum.

A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder.

So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P.

Noise level during an confined indoor SD incident is going to be irrelevant. A 22LR is RIDICULOUS indoors. Any gun fired in an enclosed area will leave your ears ringing and head spinning..... and you're not going to notice a thing. Your brain will not be paying attention to such trivialities as loud noises if you're shooting at someone in your house.

This is one more reason why I keep my electronic ear muffs on my dresser. If I have time then they're going on.

MTMilitiaman · July 31, 2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.

O no, it died.

There are these railroad tracks running next to my grandparent's property. Ground squirrels make holes in the berms on either side, and along the maintenance roads. My brother and I have spent a lot of hours and put in a lot of miles walking up and down these tracks hunting these ground squirrels, as well as grouse and rabbits. We've taken about every assortment of weaponry available to us on these walks and killed truck loads of the little varmints. At one point, it wasn't uncommon for one of us to have our respective Rem M870 12 gauges. Mine is a Wingmaster with a 26 inch barrel and an aftermarket extra-full turkey choke. I've used this shotgun to take turkeys and grouse out to 40 yards. When my dad got his Mec and started reloading for the shotguns, we had three garbage bags full of hulls for him--and that was just the ones we saved. Most of the hulls were Rem 2 3/4 inch #6 field loads. My dad loaded them with 7 1/2 because he is primarily concerned with shooting clays. My brother and I have never been impressed with the stopping power of bird shot, even on these small varmints. While the ground squirrels almost always die, we find that at any distance beyond 20 to 25 feet, it isn't uncommon for multiple rounds to have to be placed on target in short order to keep the ground squirrel from squirming down his hole to die a slow and painful death. Anymore, we don't use shotguns much. A single Velocitor from my 10/22 is far more effective to a far greater range than birdshot from a shotgun. Plus the 10/22 is lighter and handier.

So when I put my experience with shotguns loaded with birdshot together with the results of others testing them against different mediums, I just don't see how anyone would trust birdshot from home defense when I have seen it fail to stop (not kill) a 1.5 pound ground squirrel literally hundreds of times. In fact, it's really the rule rather than the exception; pull up on standing ground squirrel 50 or so feet away (about the distance from my bed, though the open bedroom door, to the living room), line up fiber optic sights COM on standing ground squirrel, pull trigger, BOOMP, perfectly centered pattern visible as dust ring around varmint, ground squirrel flops over on ground and begins flopping around and pulling itself towards hole, clack-clack, drop the rest of the mag at ground squirrel, which gradually ceases movement mere inches from hole entrance, but only after squirming several feet as it takes 2 or 3 twelve gauge birdshot rounds. Or, like I said, you can just shoot it once with a .22, blow a hole you can stick your thumb through its chest on the first shot, and not have to worry about it squirming down its hole to slowly die. It's not a shot placement issue, so there's not much we can do to make birdshot any more effective.

MLeake · July 31, 2009, 04:29 PM

... it's going to be loud, and fight or flight will make that temporarily irrelevant.

Flashblindness might not be as irrelevant. Would prefer not to find out. A lower flash, lower noise intensity round like 9mm, .45acp or .44special might be less distracting indoors, and it might make some difference in shooter performance.

But my basic argument was with a poster who complained that the shotgun would be too loud. According to the stats I read, a shotgun is less noisy than a magnum handgun in 4" or shorter barrel. So, if he thinks magnum handguns have acceptable noise levels due to their stopping power, he should have no qualms about shotguns.

Brian Pfleuger · July 31, 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Flashblindness might not be as irrelevant.

That's true.... I shot this deer once, in my misguided youth,.... it was.... a "wee-bit" past legal shooting light.... anyhow, almost fell out of my stand, couldn't see a thing for a couple of minutes. It was surprisingly effective at blinding me for what would be FAR too long in a SD situation. Still, the #4 shot to the chest from 15 feet will likely give the BG something to worry about as well.... no guarantee but I like it better than a handgun, personally.

MLeake · July 31, 2009, 04:37 PM

I was referring to the flash from a short barreled magnum being worse than the flash from a shotgun.

I've shot 12ga, 1911, M4, and M9 at night courses over the years, and they weren't that bad. However, a hot .357 load out of an SP101 makes a noticeable flash at a lighted indoor range, and I can just imagine what it would look like in really dark conditions.

I think shotguns are just fine for HD, so long as one doesn't try creeping around blind corners with one.

Brian Pfleuger · July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM

Oh.

My bad. That would be an interesting test. I've seen the flash from both but never side by side for comparison. The flash from a 12ga is no slouch, that's for sure.

If I was having to hunt my way through the house then I might take my handgun instead... my preferred tactic is to hide in the bedroom and wait for the PD, so it would have to be a rather severe happenstance to have me go looking. If it was that severe then I might want the shotgun....

Hm, anyway.... here's to hoping I never find out.

Southern Rebel · July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM

Shotgun - home defense at night after having gone to bed. Otherwise, rifle when I am out in the countryside, pistol when in car or on street. (Not necessarily advocating choices - just identifying what I currently use and where.)

Evan Thomas · July 31, 2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

Any gun fired in an enclosed area will leave your ears ringing and head spinning..... and you're not going to notice a thing. Your brain will not be paying attention to such trivialities as loud noises if you're shooting at someone in your house.

This is one more reason why I keep my electronic ear muffs on my dresser. If I have time then they're going on.

Oh goody -- someone else who thinks this is a good idea.

What's almost as bad as the canard about not having to aim shotguns? The one that goes, "Oh, you don't need hearing protection in an HD situation -- you won't even hear the shot with all that adrenaline." Umm, no. Sound is a physical event, and it has physical effects on your ears. Any gunshot in a small space will indeed be ridiculously loud, and will very likely damage your hearing; just because you don't notice the noise at the time doesn't mean it's not blowing out the hair cells in your cochlea.

I'd way rather be deaf than dead, but I'd prefer to avoid both, if at all possible.

armsmaster270 · July 31, 2009, 07:44 PM

Multiple opponents at the same time.
And I have been in a shooting in a narrow hallway using a 4" S&W Mod 15 with 110gr 38spl+P+ ammo and I hardly noticed the shot and it didn't stop or slow me down a bit. Been there Done that.

ML: I trained police officers with the lights off and using flashlights there is a light show for you.

dpturbo29 · July 31, 2009, 09:42 PM

I agree with your latest assessment. I don't think you specified "clay loads" in your original post. I find anything smaller than no. 6 shot is fairly useless on anything but clay and doves and it often just wounds the doves. I too find the 10/22 to be much more fun for the pesky tree rat.

July 30, 2009, 07:33 PM	#51
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	SG my first choice? Never __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

July 30, 2009, 07:58 PM	#53
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	12ga noise level One post expressed concern over shotgun noise indoors. A while back I had posted the same concern - don't remember which thread, it wasn't recent. Anyway, another poster came back with a table showing actual noise levels for common SD weapons. If I remember correctly, the 12ga from 20" barrel came in around 155dB, and a .357mag from a 4" barrel came in around 161db; in any case there was a 5 or 6 dB increase from the shotgun to the magnum. A shorter barreled .357 would be even louder. So, if you're worried about shotgun noise inside, you might want to reconsider that .357 unless it's downloaded to .38+P. In response to the original question, I'm still undecided as to whether I'd grab an 18.5" 12ga pump or a 16" 5.56 AR for a bump in the night. Given that the house is in the country (pasture and forest), the AR has a range advantage. The EOTech sight on the AR allows for very rapid sight acquisition, too, and its brightness is adjustable for ambient lighting conditions. Hard to beat a 30rd mag, and I've had a reasonable amount of training on M16 and M4... Guess for me, the AR is a better choice. However, my significant other is a farmgirl, and is more comfortable with shotguns. I usually have a handgun and surefire available near wherever I sleep. So, guess which one stays in the bedroom overnight, and which is in the safe? (Can anybody say, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy?) Besides, the safe isn't all that far. Cheers, M

July 30, 2009, 10:11 PM	#57
ramp_tech Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 251	When I am dealing with something requires more firepower... Shotgun only becomes my first choice when I don't have my Walther P99 and tripped out Mini-14. __________________ National Rifle Association - Institute for Legislative Action YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE by making a contribution to NRA-ILA!

July 30, 2009, 10:37 PM	#58
ibdecent Member Join Date: June 1, 2009 Location: Brainerd MN Posts: 82	one thing about mossberg tacticals.... the safety stinks for stocks with pistol grips....it's on the top of the reciever. you must remove your stronghand to reach it. granted if it hits the fan you probably will have it kicked off long before hand, but in the event you couldn't, there's precious seconds lost. Don't get me wrong, I love the mossies, best duck hunting gun for the money, but the safety is in the wrong spot for pistol grips. __________________ There's no substitution for caliber GLOBAL WARMING? What temperature is it supposed to be? Machinists do it with precision

July 31, 2009, 12:14 AM	#59
dpturbo29 Member Join Date: January 15, 2009 Location: Murray, KY Posts: 16	Always As others have said, I think it comes down to familiarity. I personally reach for the shotgun because that's what I grew up with. Got my first 12 gauge when I was 12. Countless hours in fields, duck blinds, and the clays range have made that particular weapon like another appendage. For you the same may be true of your carbines (by the way - I wish I could claim a collection like that). At ranges found inside the average home I don't believe a short barreled shotgun gives anything up to the carbine in handiness and probably has a more devastating effect on target. Another pro for the shotgun is the ability to choose from a wide range of available loads to control over penetration.

July 30, 2009, 07:46 PM	#52
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	I think I would always want the shotgun or any power rifle/carbine before the handgun. My shotgun skills are not so great but its enough to get the job done.

July 30, 2009, 08:32 PM	#54
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	A SG would be pretty effective indoors for SD. Slugs only of course. If I for some insane reason have to step outside...I'm taking a rifle.

July 30, 2009, 08:46 PM	#55
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	While my handgun is the closest gun to my bed - it is there to allow me the chance to get to my shotgun. A shotgun beats a handgun any day, and a rifle beats a shotgun..........

July 30, 2009, 08:55 PM	#56
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	with choice of ammo in each situation i would take a shotgun in any situation to at least 50 yards. Slugs past 30. THe carbines you list will do any job pretty well from 5 to 400 yards, maybe a bit beyond, but there are better guns at almost all the specific ranges within that set.

July 31, 2009, 12:40 AM	#60
dpturbo29 Member Join Date: January 15, 2009 Location: Murray, KY Posts: 16	For MTMilitiaman I don't mean to pick, but did you say you have failed to kill a squirrel with a 12 gauge at "in home" distances? The last time I shot a squirrel at "in home" range with a 12 gauge it took me 5 minutes to find a cleaned out hull of what used to be a squirrel 15 yards away wrapped around a sapling.

July 31, 2009, 01:57 AM	#61
R1145 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 351	Overall, a tactical rifle is more versatile and formidable, but reasons to choose a shotgun are: - Quickness: No aiming, swing the gun, find the bead, fire, target goes down. - Hit probability: A 25" cone at 25 feet, nine balls with 00 Buck. - Rule 4: What's beyond. Lead balls are spent at short ranges relative to bullets. So, therefore, choose a shotgun when you need to knock someone down quickly at close range without spraying lead two miles away...which covers many self-defense scenarios. Last edited by R1145; July 31, 2009 at 02:02 AM.

July 31, 2009, 02:29 AM	#62
stonesfan08 Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 43	the 870 and 500 are both used by the military and both are very customizable you can get 18" to 28" barrels(maybe only 26") you can get short or long stocks. rifled barrels. but there is also the benelli supernova you might want to look at. and for uses for a shotgun HD, sporting clays, 3 gun comp., turkey hunting, deer hunting, rabbit hunting, upland game hunting, ducks and all that just about evrything but long distance shooting

July 31, 2009, 12:58 PM	#63
sakeneko Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Nevada Posts: 644	In reference to the original question, I would prefer a shotgun to a handgun for self defense in any situation where I had the choice. But shotguns are not concealable (unless you're very tall and given to wearing trenchcoats everywhere), and not comfortable to carry with you in most circumstances. For those reasons, our shotgun (a Mossberg 500) is a home defense weapon. That includes "camp defense" if my husband and I are camping in an area where a bear or large predator is a possibility. Otherwise, we rely on our handguns, which are almost always with us unless we're going somewhere where it is illegal to carry. Obviously, if we ever need to defend ourselves somewhere where the shotgun isn't handy, we will do so with the handguns.

July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM	#65
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Would folks please stop saying you don't have to aim shotguns? For the love of Pete or whomever. Also, if you want to discuss relative penetration of rounds - it is your responsibility to look that stuff up before you expound on a 223 vs 00. Last, have you shot either in a shoot house or match - so you have a comparative view of their utility? Do you shoot matches with all three platforms - shotguns miss and you can jam them up. They are slow for repeat shots, esp. for casual users. In the average HD situation - it is more important that you are competent with the firearm as compared to just spouting cliches. A quality handgun and good ammo, shotgun or carbine platform will work. The shotgun always is put forward as some wonder tool, hammer of Thor (with the Judge being a mini-version). The person and training is more important. I'd be more confident with an Insights member, KRtraining staff, Givens, NTI participant than with a guy I know who has kept a 12 gauge pistol grip in his sock draw unfired for twenty years. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 31, 2009, 04:29 PM	#68
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	PK, I don't disagree... ... it's going to be loud, and fight or flight will make that temporarily irrelevant. Flashblindness might not be as irrelevant. Would prefer not to find out. A lower flash, lower noise intensity round like 9mm, .45acp or .44special might be less distracting indoors, and it might make some difference in shooter performance. But my basic argument was with a poster who complained that the shotgun would be too loud. According to the stats I read, a shotgun is less noisy than a magnum handgun in 4" or shorter barrel. So, if he thinks magnum handguns have acceptable noise levels due to their stopping power, he should have no qualms about shotguns.

July 31, 2009, 04:37 PM	#70
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Actually, I was referring to the flash from a short barreled magnum being worse than the flash from a shotgun. I've shot 12ga, 1911, M4, and M9 at night courses over the years, and they weren't that bad. However, a hot .357 load out of an SP101 makes a noticeable flash at a lighted indoor range, and I can just imagine what it would look like in really dark conditions. I think shotguns are just fine for HD, so long as one doesn't try creeping around blind corners with one.

July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM	#71
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Oh. My bad. That would be an interesting test. I've seen the flash from both but never side by side for comparison. The flash from a 12ga is no slouch, that's for sure. If I was having to hunt my way through the house then I might take my handgun instead... my preferred tactic is to hide in the bedroom and wait for the PD, so it would have to be a rather severe happenstance to have me go looking. If it was that severe then I might want the shotgun.... Hm, anyway.... here's to hoping I never find out. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 31, 2009, 04:41 PM	#72
Southern Rebel Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 165	Shotgun - home defense at night after having gone to bed. Otherwise, rifle when I am out in the countryside, pistol when in car or on street. (Not necessarily advocating choices - just identifying what I currently use and where.)

July 31, 2009, 07:44 PM	#74
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Multiple opponents at the same time. And I have been in a shooting in a narrow hallway using a 4" S&W Mod 15 with 110gr 38spl+P+ ammo and I hardly noticed the shot and it didn't stop or slow me down a bit. Been there Done that. ML: I trained police officers with the lights off and using flashlights there is a light show for you. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S. Last edited by armsmaster270; July 31, 2009 at 07:51 PM.

July 31, 2009, 09:42 PM	#75
dpturbo29 Member Join Date: January 15, 2009 Location: Murray, KY Posts: 16	For MT I agree with your latest assessment. I don't think you specified "clay loads" in your original post. I find anything smaller than no. 6 shot is fairly useless on anything but clay and doves and it often just wounds the doves. I too find the 10/22 to be much more fun for the pesky tree rat.