Pistol Grip Shotguns - Page 3

Scattergun Bob · April 2, 2009, 10:48 PM

You are absolutely right, as usual my fingers don't type what my mind is thinking.

I agree that some where in the range of 40 ft lbs of felt recoil is more in line with fighting loads.

thanks, Bob

Southern Rebel · April 3, 2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

I am talking about center punching a human at 10 to 12 feet in the 3/4s of a second you have left before he does it to you.

Hmmm.................Just sitting here wondering just HOW MANY humans you have center punched i 3/4 seconds in your lifetime.

Different human beings have different shooting abilities (and also different physiological reactions to extreme stress apparently). I stand by my original statement - in a 3/4 second encounter, I will put the lead into your human at 10 feet a lot quicker than you will - unless of course are walking around with your magical shoulder-mounted stock already mounted and pointed in the right direction.

If you have to aim at 10 ft, it would indicate you have not had a lot of practice shooting a pg shotgun. (I would still admit to preferring a regular stock if and when I have the time and the distance is more of a challenge.)

Kmar40 · April 3, 2009, 03:58 PM

Internet commando high alert.

amd6547 · April 3, 2009, 04:15 PM

It really annoys me when webrats decend to insult because others don't agree with their dogma.
If a pistol grip shotgun isn't to your needs or abilities, that is fine. But it does happen to fill a niche for me. Such shotguns have been used for a century by some folks who know a thing or two about self defense.

Tucker 1371 · April 3, 2009, 04:17 PM

BUY A STOCK!!! Please do yourself a favor. I'm 19 and not exactly what you'd call weak and I can barely hold on to my grandpaw's Mossy 500 PGO in 12ga.

I was shooting slugs and the daggum thing nearly hit me in the chest every time. Its the only gun I can say with out a doubt that I thoroughly did not enjoy shooting.

Now my grandpaw is about 6'6" and 260 so it doesn't bother him nearly as much but unless you want to carry this shotgun in the car with you I thin the best way to go is to slap a stock on there.

amd6547 · April 3, 2009, 04:55 PM

I have a stock. I also have a Remington Model 11 riot gun, a shining example of John Brownings brilliance.
Yet, the pistol gripped shotgun has it's uses for me as well. Again, if you can't handle it, or don't feel you need it, don't buy one. But don't tell me I shouldn't have one, or that they can't be fired accurately, or that they are useless. Perhaps those descriptions apply to you, but not to me.

Dave McC · April 3, 2009, 05:04 PM

Any of you PGO fans live near central MD?.....

jammin1237 · April 3, 2009, 06:39 PM

i'm still trying to get some idea of where pistol grip shotgun denial comes from... if i look at the two "tac style" firearms i have, they almost have the same ergonomic profile... one AR and one win 1300 defender...

has this forum ever discussed hip shooting ARs with accuracy?

just a thought...

cheers!

jammin1237 · April 3, 2009, 06:40 PM

Dave McC · April 3, 2009, 07:52 PM

Jammin', I have little conflict with those who prefer a long arm with an AR style separate PG.

I do better, at least with shotguns, with the classic stock design. If I decide to buy the Saiga here on extended T&E loan, I may get the conversion done and compare splits just to see how a separate PG helps or hinders.

I do, repeat, do, have issues with those who claim to be Death Walking with a shotgun sans any stock.

BTDT, got the T shirt and the coffee mug.

I KNOW how much more effort and training achieving minimum proficiency with a stockless shotgun takes. From what some people allege on the Net concerning their performances, I take any input with a grain of salt.

Heck, sometimes I'm wanting hipboots, it gets so deep.

TxGun · April 3, 2009, 11:09 PM

I've shot a lot of shotguns over the past 40 years, and while I certainly prefer a full stock, PGO shotguns are just not that difficult to shoot. And shoot well if you take some time to practice. Now when I say shoot well, I'm talking about at defensive distances, of course. That's what they are designed for, after all.

Check the breacher's grip video on the attached link:

http://www.knoxx.com/action_videos/Knoxx_Videos.php

The little guy seems to be a bit of a wuss, though. The 'lil 'ol girl could probably wrestle him down

.

Southern Rebel · April 3, 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

I do, repeat, do, have issues with those who claim to be Death Walking with a shotgun sans any stock.

I don't recall anyone claiming to be Death Walking, but my God, man - at 10 feet you can practically reach out and put the muzzle in the belly button.

Just because you can't perform, doesn't mean it can't be performed. I have issues with those who claim others can't do something because THEY can't do it.

I have witnessed some remarkable shooting with handguns that didn't involve the standard two-hand grip and the use of sights. I couldn't have come any where near to duplicating it, but I wouldn't deny what I saw just because of my lack of that particular skill.

In the end, it matters not whether I agree with you or you agree with me. It makes for interesting conversation, but that is the extent of it.

Slopemeno · April 4, 2009, 12:56 AM

I don't have issues with people who claim they can hit fast and accurate with a PGO shotgun, it just seemed like *they* never showed up at my league. The guys who missed poppers at 25 feet under the timer sure did though...

Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage.

TxGun · April 4, 2009, 01:51 AM

"Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage."

I don't imagine anyone would argue that point.

11bravo_2papa · April 4, 2009, 02:19 AM

while i'll agree a stock adds accuracey, for home defense i don't see any problem with having a pistol grip on your shotgun. i personally use a pg on my shotgun for home defense. i regularly pratice with it and for cqb consider it a formitable option. would i use it for deer season? no, but that's not what it's made for. one thing my 1sgt did when we were in kuwait waiting for the invasion of iraq was to cut the stocks on all our companys shotguns and "shorten" the barrels. it worked for us then and i still swear by it for cqb purposes now.

Southern Rebel · April 4, 2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

I've shot a lot of shotguns over the past 40 years, and while I certainly prefer a full stock, PGO shotguns are just not that difficult to shoot. And shoot well if you take some time to practice. Now when I say shoot well, I'm talking about at defensive distances, of course. That's what they are designed for, after all.

TxGun, destiny has called upon us - we just need to open a pg shotgun self-defense shooting school. It is obvious that there is both a need and a demand. Of course we will have to decline wanna-be deer hunters, trick shooters, skeet shooters, and long-range sniper candidates!

"I don't need to kill everybody, Tom - just my enemies." - (The Godfather)

(I ain't even gonna discuss my grandfather's quail hunting with a .22 rifle because he thought it ultimate stupidity to waste expensive shotgun ammo when a cheap .22 would do the job. And, yes, he did allow them to take flight before knocking them down. He was like most of his generation which pretty much went by the concept that you didn't go to hunt game - you went to kill game, because having hungry children was just not acceptable.)

amd6547 · April 4, 2009, 09:36 AM

I guess those secret service witness protection agents who use pistol gripped shotguns just didn't know any better.

hogdogs · April 4, 2009, 10:20 AM

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=346396
As a person who has owned and operated shotguns since I was 8 on a VERY regular basis I feel I have a bit of quantified experience that allows me to speak on this subject.
I have used PGO, AR style PG stock, and factory style stocks. I have never fired a "gentleman's" grade of gun in my life so an elitist I am not! I have fired sawed off .410 with 7 inch barrel extensively on up to 28 inch field guns. Far more than 99% of my intended targets had blood coursing thru their veins. I have had varying degrees of success with each gun. I have also self trained in both the domicile and outdoor environs.
The PGO is a fun gun! But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon. The AR style has limitations. The regular stock has NO LIMITATIONS in any type of use. The only limitation in the use of a regular stock is with the shooter.
In my offer I linked to I am serious about taking a week of my time to share extensively with any one serious about learning skills they may have only begun to work with. Not everyone has the locale to allow repeated heavy shooting to impart habitual skill. In this offer you are not only invited to shoot whatever you bring (shotgun wise) but you will also get to fire my guns all you want as well. One thing this will do is make you more dependent on your own discipline and not the gun. Also you will be able to compare a 28 inch, 18 inch of mine to what ever of yours. I will hold all results in confidence and if you choose to post about it I will opine at that time. Records of hit miss ratio etc. can be kept. You can switch your gun around day to day as well. This isn't just a shell wasting opportunity. Tactical practice as well as some FoF for you as well. Multiple attacker scenario as well as Junior would love to participate. we will also sling a few cases of clays for you... Not those preset trap and skeet type either... Hand slinger at various heights and angles... mostly lower and slower than those sport machines can handle. I have done these tasks with PGO and assure you no amount of skill with it will account for as many hits as you would get with a stock even if you never used a stocked shotgun in your life... PROMISE!
Funny thing about my offer that is serious and intended to help guys mostly new to HD/SD shotgunning is that the guys who have shown interest are mostly already as well trained if not more at one discipline or other than me...
Man I would have belly crawled 100 miles on broken glass in my younger days to take up an offer like this... It took me 30 years to self train (a few guys had some input in how I should train) what I would like to share in a week or so....
Brent

TxGun · April 4, 2009, 11:50 AM

"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon."

I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point.

TxGun · April 4, 2009, 12:02 PM

"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon."

I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point.

All I'm saying is that one can learn to shoot a PGO gun effectively at conflict distances and that they have their place in certain circumstances where compactness or concealibility are desired...a travel gun might be one example. They are not that hard to shoot accurately at SD/HD range and the recoil is certainly not something overwhelming. Look, I have an even dozen short barrelled shotguns at this moment (bird guns are another story

). Only 1 of those is a PGO gun. Does that tell everyone something??? Do you think I prefer a PGO gun over a full-stocked gun??? Haven't I said at least twice in this thread that I do not??? Jeez, this stuff ain't that hard to understand.

amd6547 · April 4, 2009, 12:06 PM

Nobody is saying that a pistol gripped shotgun is superior for all uses, or that it rocks for skeet shooting.
All I am saying, is that if you kick through my door at zero dark thirty, I will put a load of 00 buck in your chest.

hogdogs · April 4, 2009, 12:32 PM

I understand they can be a good "coach gun"... Heck during "snake season" I have been known to carry my 20 on the dash with PGO to blast diamond backs in areas where we run hog dogs. But that is at point blank range with a field load. The same gun rides fine on the dash with a full stock.
The only advantage (remember I have owned and operated the 3 named stock types extensively) is that a PGO can be carried with a sigle PG mounted swivel under my arm with sling over my shoulder while I also run dogs on leads... What for? I dunno, maybe to shoot a dillar (make ankle twisting holes) or a rabbit (treat for the dogs) or a squirrel for the snake....
If hip shooting is your desire a regular stock works great but an AR style suffers. If HD is your need than the regular stock is superior as you have the most available holds and mounts but the AR style and pistol grip both suffer. for true SD, the risk of hand to hand combat should be factored in and only the PGO suffers in this situation. The PGO really isn't very secure from being forcibly removed by a determined aggressor. Not even the double pistol grip...
Brent

Dave_Shotgun · April 4, 2009, 02:32 PM

Hey everyone. I just want so say thank you to everyone for commenting on pistol grip vs. stock shotguns. I'm new to shooting and I am planning on buying a 12 gauge shotgun. I just took the firearm safety course last weekend and I'm waiting on my firearms licence (I'm from Canada).

I was initially planning on buying shotgun with a stock and then sawing off the stock, but after reading this thread, I will definitely be keeping the stock. I'm 28, but I only weigh 155 lbs and I don't think I would be able to handle the recoil of a PG shotgun. I've watched some videos on youtube of people injuring themselves with guns, because they couldn't handle the recoil. My shotgun will be primarily for home protection, but I would also like to be able to shoot it reasonably accurately.

Here is the link to the gun I'm planning on buying:

http://www.canadaammo.com/product.ph...0&cat=3&page=1

hogdogs · April 4, 2009, 02:45 PM

Neat lookin, decent price. Is it chinese/turkish?
Brent

Dave_Shotgun · April 4, 2009, 03:17 PM

I think I read somewhere that Dominion Arms manufactures their guns in China and they're imported and sold by canadaammo.com, but I could be wrong.

April 2, 2009, 10:48 PM	#51
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Pete You are absolutely right, as usual my fingers don't type what my mind is thinking. I agree that some where in the range of 40 ft lbs of felt recoil is more in line with fighting loads. thanks, Bob __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

April 3, 2009, 04:15 PM	#54
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	It really annoys me when webrats decend to insult because others don't agree with their dogma. If a pistol grip shotgun isn't to your needs or abilities, that is fine. But it does happen to fill a niche for me. Such shotguns have been used for a century by some folks who know a thing or two about self defense. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

April 3, 2009, 04:17 PM	#55
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	BUY A STOCK!!! Please do yourself a favor. I'm 19 and not exactly what you'd call weak and I can barely hold on to my grandpaw's Mossy 500 PGO in 12ga. I was shooting slugs and the daggum thing nearly hit me in the chest every time. Its the only gun I can say with out a doubt that I thoroughly did not enjoy shooting. Now my grandpaw is about 6'6" and 260 so it doesn't bother him nearly as much but unless you want to carry this shotgun in the car with you I thin the best way to go is to slap a stock on there. __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

April 3, 2009, 04:55 PM	#56
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I have a stock. I also have a Remington Model 11 riot gun, a shining example of John Brownings brilliance. Yet, the pistol gripped shotgun has it's uses for me as well. Again, if you can't handle it, or don't feel you need it, don't buy one. But don't tell me I shouldn't have one, or that they can't be fired accurately, or that they are useless. Perhaps those descriptions apply to you, but not to me. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

April 3, 2009, 06:40 PM	#59
jammin1237 Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Location: Wisonsin Posts: 269	Last edited by jammin1237; July 26, 2009 at 05:32 PM.

April 3, 2009, 03:58 PM	#53
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	Internet commando high alert.

April 3, 2009, 05:04 PM	#57
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Any of you PGO fans live near central MD?.....

April 3, 2009, 06:39 PM	#58
jammin1237 Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Location: Wisonsin Posts: 269	i'm still trying to get some idea of where pistol grip shotgun denial comes from... if i look at the two "tac style" firearms i have, they almost have the same ergonomic profile... one AR and one win 1300 defender... has this forum ever discussed hip shooting ARs with accuracy? just a thought... cheers!

April 3, 2009, 07:52 PM	#60
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Jammin', I have little conflict with those who prefer a long arm with an AR style separate PG. I do better, at least with shotguns, with the classic stock design. If I decide to buy the Saiga here on extended T&E loan, I may get the conversion done and compare splits just to see how a separate PG helps or hinders. I do, repeat, do, have issues with those who claim to be Death Walking with a shotgun sans any stock. BTDT, got the T shirt and the coffee mug. I KNOW how much more effort and training achieving minimum proficiency with a stockless shotgun takes. From what some people allege on the Net concerning their performances, I take any input with a grain of salt. Heck, sometimes I'm wanting hipboots, it gets so deep.

April 3, 2009, 11:09 PM	#61
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	I've shot a lot of shotguns over the past 40 years, and while I certainly prefer a full stock, PGO shotguns are just not that difficult to shoot. And shoot well if you take some time to practice. Now when I say shoot well, I'm talking about at defensive distances, of course. That's what they are designed for, after all. Check the breacher's grip video on the attached link: http://www.knoxx.com/action_videos/Knoxx_Videos.php The little guy seems to be a bit of a wuss, though. The 'lil 'ol girl could probably wrestle him down . Last edited by TxGun; April 3, 2009 at 11:16 PM.

April 4, 2009, 12:56 AM	#63
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	I don't have issues with people who claim they can hit fast and accurate with a PGO shotgun, it just seemed like they never showed up at my league. The guys who missed poppers at 25 feet under the timer sure did though... Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage.

April 4, 2009, 01:51 AM	#64
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	"Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage." I don't imagine anyone would argue that point.

April 4, 2009, 02:19 AM	#65
11bravo_2papa Member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Location: CONNECTICUT Posts: 41	while i'll agree a stock adds accuracey, for home defense i don't see any problem with having a pistol grip on your shotgun. i personally use a pg on my shotgun for home defense. i regularly pratice with it and for cqb consider it a formitable option. would i use it for deer season? no, but that's not what it's made for. one thing my 1sgt did when we were in kuwait waiting for the invasion of iraq was to cut the stocks on all our companys shotguns and "shorten" the barrels. it worked for us then and i still swear by it for cqb purposes now. __________________ OIF 1 VET "AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY LET'S GO"

April 4, 2009, 09:36 AM	#67
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I guess those secret service witness protection agents who use pistol gripped shotguns just didn't know any better. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

April 4, 2009, 10:20 AM	#68
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=346396 As a person who has owned and operated shotguns since I was 8 on a VERY regular basis I feel I have a bit of quantified experience that allows me to speak on this subject. I have used PGO, AR style PG stock, and factory style stocks. I have never fired a "gentleman's" grade of gun in my life so an elitist I am not! I have fired sawed off .410 with 7 inch barrel extensively on up to 28 inch field guns. Far more than 99% of my intended targets had blood coursing thru their veins. I have had varying degrees of success with each gun. I have also self trained in both the domicile and outdoor environs. The PGO is a fun gun! But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon. The AR style has limitations. The regular stock has NO LIMITATIONS in any type of use. The only limitation in the use of a regular stock is with the shooter. In my offer I linked to I am serious about taking a week of my time to share extensively with any one serious about learning skills they may have only begun to work with. Not everyone has the locale to allow repeated heavy shooting to impart habitual skill. In this offer you are not only invited to shoot whatever you bring (shotgun wise) but you will also get to fire my guns all you want as well. One thing this will do is make you more dependent on your own discipline and not the gun. Also you will be able to compare a 28 inch, 18 inch of mine to what ever of yours. I will hold all results in confidence and if you choose to post about it I will opine at that time. Records of hit miss ratio etc. can be kept. You can switch your gun around day to day as well. This isn't just a shell wasting opportunity. Tactical practice as well as some FoF for you as well. Multiple attacker scenario as well as Junior would love to participate. we will also sling a few cases of clays for you... Not those preset trap and skeet type either... Hand slinger at various heights and angles... mostly lower and slower than those sport machines can handle. I have done these tasks with PGO and assure you no amount of skill with it will account for as many hits as you would get with a stock even if you never used a stocked shotgun in your life... PROMISE! Funny thing about my offer that is serious and intended to help guys mostly new to HD/SD shotgunning is that the guys who have shown interest are mostly already as well trained if not more at one discipline or other than me... Man I would have belly crawled 100 miles on broken glass in my younger days to take up an offer like this... It took me 30 years to self train (a few guys had some input in how I should train) what I would like to share in a week or so.... Brent

April 4, 2009, 11:50 AM	#69
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon." I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point.

April 4, 2009, 12:02 PM	#70
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon." I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point. All I'm saying is that one can learn to shoot a PGO gun effectively at conflict distances and that they have their place in certain circumstances where compactness or concealibility are desired...a travel gun might be one example. They are not that hard to shoot accurately at SD/HD range and the recoil is certainly not something overwhelming. Look, I have an even dozen short barrelled shotguns at this moment (bird guns are another story ). Only 1 of those is a PGO gun. Does that tell everyone something??? Do you think I prefer a PGO gun over a full-stocked gun??? Haven't I said at least twice in this thread that I do not??? Jeez, this stuff ain't that hard to understand. Last edited by TxGun; April 4, 2009 at 12:15 PM.

April 4, 2009, 12:06 PM	#71
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	Nobody is saying that a pistol gripped shotgun is superior for all uses, or that it rocks for skeet shooting. All I am saying, is that if you kick through my door at zero dark thirty, I will put a load of 00 buck in your chest. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

April 4, 2009, 12:32 PM	#72
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I understand they can be a good "coach gun"... Heck during "snake season" I have been known to carry my 20 on the dash with PGO to blast diamond backs in areas where we run hog dogs. But that is at point blank range with a field load. The same gun rides fine on the dash with a full stock. The only advantage (remember I have owned and operated the 3 named stock types extensively) is that a PGO can be carried with a sigle PG mounted swivel under my arm with sling over my shoulder while I also run dogs on leads... What for? I dunno, maybe to shoot a dillar (make ankle twisting holes) or a rabbit (treat for the dogs) or a squirrel for the snake.... If hip shooting is your desire a regular stock works great but an AR style suffers. If HD is your need than the regular stock is superior as you have the most available holds and mounts but the AR style and pistol grip both suffer. for true SD, the risk of hand to hand combat should be factored in and only the PGO suffers in this situation. The PGO really isn't very secure from being forcibly removed by a determined aggressor. Not even the double pistol grip... Brent

April 4, 2009, 02:32 PM	#73
Dave_Shotgun Member Join Date: April 4, 2009 Location: Ontario Posts: 32	Hey everyone. I just want so say thank you to everyone for commenting on pistol grip vs. stock shotguns. I'm new to shooting and I am planning on buying a 12 gauge shotgun. I just took the firearm safety course last weekend and I'm waiting on my firearms licence (I'm from Canada). I was initially planning on buying shotgun with a stock and then sawing off the stock, but after reading this thread, I will definitely be keeping the stock. I'm 28, but I only weigh 155 lbs and I don't think I would be able to handle the recoil of a PG shotgun. I've watched some videos on youtube of people injuring themselves with guns, because they couldn't handle the recoil. My shotgun will be primarily for home protection, but I would also like to be able to shoot it reasonably accurately. Here is the link to the gun I'm planning on buying: http://www.canadaammo.com/product.ph...0&cat=3&page=1

April 4, 2009, 02:45 PM	#74
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Neat lookin, decent price. Is it chinese/turkish? Brent

April 4, 2009, 03:17 PM	#75
Dave_Shotgun Member Join Date: April 4, 2009 Location: Ontario Posts: 32	I think I read somewhere that Dominion Arms manufactures their guns in China and they're imported and sold by canadaammo.com, but I could be wrong.