Full Length Bushing Die Diameters?

[Bart B.]

In a Redding or RCBS bushing die, what's the difference in diameter between the outside of the bushing and inside of its chamber in the die?

In other words, how much sideways clearance is there between the bushing and the die?

Thanks; inquiring mind wants to know.

[SWThomas]

Maybe a few thousandths. It's kinda hard to measure down inside the die where the bushing goes. You can hear the bushing rattle if you shake it though.

[243winxb]

Ask Redding http://www.redding-reloading.com/con...ding-reloading I do not have a tool to get a good measurement. My 3 bushings are .501" OD. A piece of shim stock of .0045" will not go between the die and bushing. So i would guess the hole is about .503" & no larger than .504" diameter. Sorry not much help. There is a lip in the die even with the top of the bushing. It is the start of a chamber cut for the bushing.

[F. Guffey]

inquiring mind wants to know

there can not be many of those 'inquiring minds'.

When I am told a reloader removes the bushing of the die then turns the die into a bump??? shoulder case body die I have on occasion ask about the part of the shoulder at the juncture that does not get sized.

I have shoulder/case body dies I have had from the big inning. I know the diameter of the necks of all the dies.

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instru...structions.pdf



F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Bart,

First, I want to thank you for asking the question. I wanted to do some long set-aside experiments with my triple deuce, and decided that I was shortly going to indulge my convenience by shelling out for a Redding Competition Seater die for it. So, when I didn't lay hands on a bushing die where I though it was, I was forced consider I had put it in the wrong box, which made me look through other die boxes and then, lo and behold, I open one and what do I spy? A Redding Competition Seater Die for .222 Rem, still waiting for its initial cleaning and rust inhibitor removal. Getting old has surprises.

I measured the first bushing die I found both by ball end small hole transfer gauge and by telescoping small hole transfer gauge. I got 0.5107" and 0.5106", respectively. I tried several repetitions with the split ball gauge to vary the degree of rubbing inside the hole. I did get one 0.5109" reading, but I felt too much friction and I don't trust it. I got 0.5107" three times, so I think that's it. The telescoping gauges tend to be slightly less accurate, IME, so I look at the 0.5106" reading more as verification.

The micrometer was a standard Mitutoyo mechanical with Vernier scale. The zero was 0.0002" for three tries with the carbide anvil and spindle nose surfaces wiped, and I already took that much off for the readings reported above. The battery was low on the electronic one, so I didn't cross-check.

The hole was rough inside; not polished in any way. Indeed, part of the issue in getting the reading was the ball grabbed at two vertical positions and moved freely in two others. If I stick the borescope in, I will probably see a little bit of scoring there. Anyway, my best guess is they aim at 0.5100", and tool chatter (if they do this on a CNC machine) accounts for the slight oversize of the hole. If they are pre-boring undersize and running a 0.5100" chucking reamer in, then they are asking the reamer to take a little too much off, which will then widen the hole. I find you really can't typically take more than two or three thousandths off with a chucking reamer, or the hole gets oversize.

[243winxb]

The Redding bushing should always have the size stamped numbers facing towards the case neck. Not like in my photo.

[Bart B.]

Thanks, Unclenick and 243winxb, for your measurements.

With a .501" diameter bushing in a .510" diameter chamber, I think fired cases will have their mouths sized about .0005" off the case shoulder axis for each .0010" spread in neck wall thickness. The only way to measure it is with the sized case shoulder the forward reference as the case is spun in V blocks and the runout indicator on the bullet close to the case mouth.

The bushing will center on the case neck outside dimension then size most of it down before the case shoulder touches the die shoulder. The last several thousandths of the case into the die sets the case shoulder back some amount as the bushing sizes the case neck down stopping several thousandths short of the shoulder.

I may get a full bushing die then size some fired .308 cases in it as well as a standard die, seat bullets in each then compare bullet and neck runout relative to the case shoulder axis.

[243winxb]

the bushing sizes the case neck down stopping several thousandths short of the shoulder.

I find this to be true for my Redding FL- S die.

[Bart B.]

Redding claims that unsized part of the case neck helps center the neck in the chamber. I disagree. The only way it will help is to have the chamber and case neck the same diameter at that point. That part of the case doesn't touch the chamber when rimless bottleneck cases are fired; there's at least .001" clearance all around it.

That may happen with a custom tight-neck chamber, but not in all the thousands of the other rifles. I challenged Redding's CEO on this issue but he stuck to his claims in spite of agreeing with me that virtually all chamber necks are larger in diameter than that unsized part of case necks.

[F. Guffey]

Bart B. this should be between you and Redding. The reloading world has already accepted the bushing die way of doing things. A few years ago I was asked to make a set of dies that could be considered bushing dies. The dies have been around for 50+ years. Problem, the dies were custom, the smith that made the dies made the reamer for the chamber, built the rifle etc. etc..

Now, if we are talking about tightening up the bushing and or aligning the bushing that is/would be different. There are forum members that are/were so pushy the manufacturer had no choice but to agree with them.

then there is that problem created when the firing pin strikes the primer, any advantage gained by careful, meticulous, precision reloading is lost when the firing pin resizes wrecks the case before the primer is busted.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

I have 6 bushings . All measured .501 . I then placed the bushing in the die and pushed thin strips of feeler gages in between the bushing and the die . I got to .010 and stopped . It felt tight -ish but the threads in the die above the bushing are smaller then the die cavity . I think that was causing some of the resistance . I'd say the die is at least .010 bigger and maybe .011 or .012 bigger . I was going to make a mold but I don't think I could get it out with out messing up the area needed to be measured because the threads are a smaller diameter .

[F. Guffey]

Metal god, I have expensive seating dies, I do not have an expensive sizing die. Feeler gage? If I wanted to secure the bushing I would wrap a feeler gage leaf around the bushing or line the hole, then drop the bushing.

I posted directions to the RCBS bushing type die. The bushing has an up and or down meaning it can be installed correctly or wrong. 'thinking' the bushing floats, meaning the bushing has a beveled hole on one side for alignment. The bushings ability to float can be reduced, adding an expensive tool could eliminate the floating.

Maybe a few thousandths. It's kinda hard to measure down inside the die where the bushing goes. You can hear the bushing rattle if you shake it though.

It floats!

Full Length Bushing Die Diameters?

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In a Redding or RCBS bushing die, what's the difference in diameter between the outside of the bushing and inside of its chamber in the die?

And I disagree on 'the only way to measure'.

the bushing sizes the case neck down stopping several thousandths short of the shoulder.

I find this to be true for my Redding FL- S die.
243winxb is offline Report Post

If it floats it can not be secured between the top and bottom, post #2, "I can hear it rattle".

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Regarding Redding's full bushing dies, they are used by Berger and Sierra to reload the cases for testing their bullets for accuracy. I doubt anyone gets better accuracy than they do with those dies and their bullets.

In spite of the bushing "floating" in its chamber, the Redding dies can make excellent, accurate ammo; when properly set up and used. If someone using one doesn't get good results with the correct bushing size (best accuracy and long case life), it's not the fault of the die itself. The problem's how it's set in the press and/or at least one of several other parts of the shooting system.

[F. Guffey]

Redding claims that unsized part of the case neck helps center the neck in the chamber. I disagree. The only way it will help is to have the chamber and case neck the same diameter at that point. That part of the case doesn't touch the chamber when rimless bottleneck cases are fired; there's at least .001" clearance all around it.

That may happen with a custom tight-neck chamber, but not in all the thousands of the other rifles. I challenged Redding's CEO on this issue but he stuck to his claims in spite of agreeing with me that virtually all chamber necks are larger in diameter than that unsized part of case necks.
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Redding claims and you challenged? Good for the CEO, he stuck with it. And nice I would have challenged you on your claim about long case life. Except for the neck the case body from the shoulder to the case head die adjustment is the same for any case, except 'bump', I can not bump the shoulder without bumping the case body. I require case body support when my die bumps into the shoulder of the case.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Mr. Guffey, Redding's CEO isn't the only ignorant person I've talked with regarding case neck alignment, fit and clearance to chamber necks. There's dozen of others and a thousand times more I've not discussed the issue with.

I've won financial bets on the issue doing actual measurements of the neck clearance to chamber neck on chambered rounds. It's very easy to figure it all out without any measuring anyway.

If you disagree that the only way to measure it (accurately) is with the sized case shoulder the forward reference as the case is spun in V blocks and the runout indicator on the bullet close to the case mouth, consider this fact. The only part of virtually all cases (new, full length or neck sized rimless bottleneck ones) that touches the chamber when fired is the back end near the pressure ring area at one point and the shoulder. The rest of the body and the neck are floating in space; they've got clearance to the chamber body and neck walls. It's the case shoulder that centers the case front part in the chamber. So why not measure runout from the shoulder?

[Metal god]

This is a quote from Criss Fox at Redding . He just e-mailed me the answer .

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. The bushing chamber is .510". This allows the bushing to float and self center on the case neck.

There it is there . The chamber is .009 larger then the bushings

[Bart B.]

Thanks, Metal god, for the answer from Redding.

That clearance does allow the case neck to center its outside parameter in the bushing sizing hole. With very uniform neck wall thickness and metal properties, the case mouth that holds the bullet will be very well aligned with the case shoulder after sizing the fired case and setting its shoulder back a thousandth or two.

The cases so sized will have necks almost as straight and centered on the case shoulder as those from one piece full length sizing dies with necks a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round diameters. It'll take a rifle, shooter and ammo capable of producing sub 1/4 MOA 100-yard groups all the time to tell the difference.

RCBS Gold Medal bushing dies do as well and both make's bushings are interchangeable between their dies.

[F. Guffey]

Mr. Guffey, Redding's CEO isn't the only ignorant person I've talked with regarding case neck alignment, fit and clearance to chamber necks.

Bart B., that puts you at a disadvantage. What do you have to gain by insulting him and making your self look good at his expense.

Metal god, it is called product knowledge but you know that. Thanks for you contribution.

Maybe a few thousandths. It's kinda hard to measure down inside the die where the bushing goes. You can hear the bushing rattle if you shake it though.

Mr. Thomas was ignored from psot #2.


F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Guffey, I could insult you at your expense by proving case shoulders have been bumped back without body support and no body buckling using Neil Jones' neck/shoulder bushings as it's been done for decades. But you wouldn't believe it because you cannot understand how it's possible.

Redding's claims on case neck centering are the same Lee's claim for their collet and crimping dies producing best accuracy. And also Sierra Bullets' claim that cartridges lay in the chamber bottom when fired. Even Winchester's claim that fluting a barrel makes it stiffer. They excite those who cannot see the flaws in their claims by learning the realities of them. I've challenged all of them because they are making false claims that knowledgeable people have proved otherwise.

The realities lean way over in my favor, not yours.

[old roper]

Bart B, Why don't you start making dies the way you want solve the problem. I'm sure you can find some knowledge investors.

[Clark]

I measured the hole with a pin gauge.
I measured the bushings with dial calipers with a pin gauge as a standard.
I tried to measure the hole below the female threads with a few inside diameter tools. I can tell it is .515" or bigger and .523" or less. My guess is the hole was made with a CNC boring bar.

The Redding FL "S" die costs money and looks good, but in a controlled test, cannot do as good a job as the ugly cheap Lee collet neck die.


Pic above same as link below

[Bart B.]

Old roper, such dies are already made. Forster makes my kind of full length sizing die and they'll hone its neck out to whatever you want for an extra ten dollars. Whidden Gunworks and others make full length sizing dies with necks sized to customer specs.

Many people have been honing/lapping out their full length sizing dies since the early 1960's. It's nothing new at all.

[F. Guffey]

If I had know there was a run on Jones' dies I could have saved them some money and a trip + shipping. I have dies that fit the neck and on the shoulder that do not support the case body, but they are different.

SWThomas Maybe a few thousandths. It's kinda hard to measure down inside the die where the bushing goes. You can hear the bushing rattle if you shake it though.

"I shake it, it rattles", from the start Bart B. ASSUMPTION WAS FLAWED. the bushing does not center in the die and the hole in the center of the bushing does not have to be in the center, like boats, it floats, side to side and up and down. I did say I could 'fix that' , I could secure the bushing and make an expensive tool to align then secure the bushing.

But once Bart B. discovered Sierra used the bushing die for their accurate bullets fired in test rifles that are clamped by the barrel, he had to correct a conflict.

My opinion this thread back fired on him, remember, boats float and so does the bushing and remember, the bevel side is installed down.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Wrong again, Guffey. When will you learn to read my posts then interpret them correctly?

[F. Guffey]

Regarding Redding's full bushing dies, they are used by Berger and Sierra to reload the cases for testing their bullets for accuracy. I doubt anyone gets better accuracy than they do with those dies and their bullets.

In spite of the bushing "floating" in its chamber, the Redding dies can make excellent, accurate ammo; when properly set up and used. If someone using one doesn't get good results with the correct bushing size (best accuracy and long case life), it's not the fault of the die itself. The problem's how it's set in the press and/or at least one of several other parts of the shooting system.
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In spite of the bushing "floating" in its chamber,

In spite? Boats float, the bushing floats, it is a design feature, the reprehensive at Redding said 'it floats'. You should have noticed the first response after your question 'I shake it, it rattles',

Inquiring minds? My opinion, you had your answer before you ask the question, I am so proud of the members that did not decide to gang up on the CEO at Redding, I am proud of the job Redding does in manufacturing a fine product.

F. Guffey