The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 18, 2011, 05:36 PM   #1
randomvalleyguy
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2011
Posts: 42
California Mag capacity question

My brother just bought a .22 cal ATI GSG5 that came with two 20 round banana clips at a local big five here in California. The range safety officer tried to take possession of them saying that they were illegal and threatened to call the police. Is it legal to have high capacity mags in rimfire rifles in California? Or did the manufacturer make a mistake by shipping in those magazines? When my brother bought the rifle he told the salesman that the mag looked like it carried more than ten rounds, the guy said the mags would have a plug in them to make them legal, but they didn't. And I know a few guys at the range that have lever action .22's that carry anywhere from 10-20 rounds in the tube. Could this be because it they are older rifles? Or that mag capacity doesn't matter in rimfire rifles in California?
randomvalleyguy is offline  
Old June 18, 2011, 06:34 PM   #2
Norrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2008
Posts: 577
There is a 10 round restriction in california on removeable magazines. Rimfire, centerfire, makes no difference. Tube magazines are exempt from this, as they are not removeable. Auto shotguns are limited even more. The only notable difference between rimfires and centerfires in terms of restricted features is that rimfires are exempt from some the "assault rifle" restrictions. So you can have a pistol grip fore-grip and goodies, where on a centerfire rifle, to do so would require using a bullet button to make the magazine non-removable

You can buy rebuild kits which effectively give you a legal normal capacity (more than 10 if it was designed as such) magazine but they are a bit shady. They are intended for pre-ban magazines in need of repair, so you won't be able to claim such on a weapon that did not exist pre-ban.

If I were him, I would hold onto them and buy some normal 10 rounders as to not aggravate anyone when he feels like shooting.

If i understand correctly, the law does not ban people from possessing them, simply from manufacturing, selling, or importing them, so the liability falls onto the gunshop if anything were to happen. The manufacturer did not goof up. They can sell normal capacity magazines in California, its just the only ones they are allowed to sell them to are LEO and such. The salesman probably sold him a non-compliant model, not knowing any better. Or if he planned on altering them to make them legal, and he forgot to.

Just because the liability is on the gunshop, it doesn't mean the state won't have the right to take them away (remember, can't claim they are rebuild kits if the model is too new). Alot of times the police wont know the details of the law and you'll have to just cooperate and deal with it later in court (and over 2 magazines? not worth it, just leave them at home for armageddon or something).

Just curious, what range did he go to that the officer tried to confiscate them?

Last edited by Norrick; June 18, 2011 at 06:50 PM.
Norrick is offline  
Old June 18, 2011, 07:52 PM   #3
randomvalleyguy
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2011
Posts: 42
I'd rather not say the name of the range in case anyone were to search TFL forums for the name of said range, and get scared off because of a post I made. I've never had any trouble at this range before, and I think that the guy was just trying to keep the facility (and my brother and I) out of trouble. If you REALLY want to know which range feel free to PM me, I'll tell you. Where I live guns get a bad rap, and there's very few places to shoot. So I'm not gonna openly slander one of the only places in my area that encourages people to own and shoot guns. In my state and my town, gun rights are diminishing at a fast pace.
randomvalleyguy is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 06:00 PM   #4
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,951
It is not the rangemaster's job to consficate hi-cap mags. If the mags were Pre-Ban he would be guilty of theft. He may have wanted them for himself.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 06:37 PM   #5
deepcore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2010
Posts: 364
Quote:
If i understand correctly, the law does not ban people from possessing them, simply from manufacturing, selling, or importing them
This would be a nice thing to confirm.
When at the local shops the salesmen (when talking about mags with more than 10 round capacity in CA) always use the words: "it's illegal to have them (which would imply it's illegal to possess them) unless you can prove that you bought the magazine before the ban was implemented."

I was even told that if you for example have a pre-ban AR and bought a post-ban (bullet button) AR you can't use your hi-cap mags on the post-ban AR because that would make it an assault weapon.
deepcore is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 07:36 PM   #6
Ridge_Runner_5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,925
It's pretty easy to prove GSG-5 mags are not pre-ban, since the GSG-5 is only a couple years old.
Ridge_Runner_5 is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 08:50 PM   #7
blacksky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2008
Location: OH
Posts: 741
As a resident & gun owner in the Non-free state of Kaliforina

As a resident & gun owner in the Non-free state of Kaliforina. Anything larger than a 10 round mag is illegal to use. If you are in posession of Hi-Cap mags they are illegal unless they are true pre-banned mags! Currently there are 20 and 30 round mags being sold that are pinned or blocked, that will only accept 10 rounds. These however will bring unwanted attention to you at the range and if you are ever engaged by law enforcement at any time or any place. They can and may be confiscated along with your weapon by said law enforcement. In your case Big Five Sporting Goods is in violation of state law and could lose their right to sell firearms and be fined. Take them back to the Big Five store that they were purchased at and return them. Make the store management know what has transpired. It is tough enough to buy and own firearms in Kalifornia as it is! Let alone having people ignorant of the laws selling them and making it harder, by giving certain lobby groups and politicians more fuel to feed their fires with.
__________________
By the choices we make, we define ourselves, thereby revealing what we truly care about.

Last edited by blacksky; June 20, 2011 at 10:37 AM. Reason: spelling
blacksky is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 08:51 PM   #8
the rifleer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2008
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 1,281
It is the gun stores fault. You did nothing wrong if you bought it from big 5 in california. It is a mistake from the manufacture/store, but you probably want to let them know that way you dont get in trouble for having them.
__________________
There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.
the rifleer is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 09:58 PM   #9
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksky
As a resident & gun owner in the Non-free state of Kaliforina. Anything larger than a 10 round mag is illegal to use. If you are in posession of Hi-Cap mags they are illegal period unless they are true pre-banned mags and even then you cannot use them!
There's enough confusion in Kalifornia already without adding to it.

California Penal Code:
Quote:
§12020(a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
The possession of a "large-capacity magazine" is not a blanket prohibition. If you owned the magazines prior to January 1, 2000, then your magazines are legal.¹ Reasonable examples are possessing >10 round magazines for the Browning Hi-Power, S&W Model 59-series, Glock 17, and other firearms that were available prior to 2000. In handguns, you may legally use these magazines as long as they first entered the state before 2000.

Your confusion, I believe, relates to the use of "large-capacity magazines" with certain rifles. Semi-Automatic centerfire rifles with fixed magazines that hold more than 10-rounds are classified as "assault weapons"² This means if you build your own AR-15 using a unlisted receiver and install the magazine as a "fixed" magazine but it holds more than 10-rounds, it's illegal.

¹ Since most magazines are not dated or serialized, the state must prove that you could not have possessed the magazine prior to 1/1/2000. This is possible if you moved into CA after 1999 or the gun or magazine was not available prior to 2000. But don't worry, the LEOs in CA are just as confused as anybody else.
² §12276.1 PC
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 10:36 PM   #10
blacksky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2008
Location: OH
Posts: 741
BillCA To add further to the confusion (o:

Quote:
There's enough confusion in Kalifornia already without adding to it.
To add further to the confusion:

Magazine Questions
What is a large-capacity magazine?
California defines ‘large-capacity magazines’ as those which hold more than 10 rounds.[1]

Note that the correct legal term is "large-capacity"; other descriptions such as "standard capacity" or "high capacity" are in common use, but not appropriate in a discussion of California law.
Are rimfire firearms and magazines subject to the large capacity magazine restrictions?
Yes. Rimfire magazines are regulated by the same laws as centerfire magazines.

The only exceptions are tubular rimfire magazines, such as those built into the Marlin 60 and similar rifles, and tubular magazines built into lever action firearms. [1]

Possession
Is possession of a large capacity magazine illegal?
No. Possession of a large-capacity magazine is NOT illegal, no matter how you got it or when you got it.[1]

Is there an age limit to own magazines?
No. There was not and is not an age limit to own or purchase large-capacity magazines. This includes magazines issued to military.

Do I need to keep any proof that I legally acquired my magazines?
No, you do not need to keep receipts or otherwise prove your magazines are legal.

When did the law banning new large capacity magazines take effect?
New (to the state) large-capacity magazines were banned, effective January 1, 2000.

I owned large-capacity magazine(s) since before January 1, 2000, are they legal?
Yes. If you possessed such magazines in California before that date, they are legal.

If you manufactured them, or brought them into California for the first time after that date, the law was broken.

How is the California large-capacity magazine ban affected by the Federal ban (from 1994-2004), and vice versa?
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was law from 1994 until it expired in 2004. During that time, the sale of newly manufactured large capacity magazines was restricted to law enforcement and military only.

The sale of preexisting ("pre-ban") large capacity magazines was unchanged and still legal in California until the state ban took effect on January 1, 2000.

Up until that date, Californians could buy large-capacity magazines just like the rest of the country.

Can I buy large-capacity magazines out of California?
Yes - BUT you cannot bring them back to California assembled. You CAN take them apart - there is no law of "constructive possession" for magazine parts - but you may NOT re-assemble the parts into functioning magazines inside California. Re-assembling would be manufacturing, and that is illegal.

Can I bring large-capacity magazines into the state with me if I did not possess them here prior to January 1, 2000?
No.

What if I "find" some large-capacity magazines?
It is not illegal to possess and use large-capacity magazines. You do not have to document or discuss how you acquired them.

An analogy: Suppose you were six years old and brought home a tricycle. Your father might ask, "where did you get that tricycle?". You might reply, "I found it!". Would you really expect your father to believe that?

Please do not strain the credulity of your listeners.
What is the Statute of Limitations for violating the laws regarding large-capacity magazines?
Three years as specified in PC 801. If you illegally imported the magazine into the state or manufactured it over three years ago, the statue of limitations claims you can no longer be prosecuted.

If you then left the state with that magazine and re-imported it, the clock on the statute of limitations would reset, as a new crime would have been committed.

What should I say if a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) asks me about my large-capacity magazines?
Don't talk your way into jail.

Say you have nothing to say on the subject without an attorney present.

Can I sell, trade or give large-capacity magazines to anyone in California?
No. It is illegal to transfer large-capacity magazines inside California, except to law enforcement.

Repair and Rebuild
Is it illegal to possess parts for large capacity magazines?
No. It is not illegal to possess all of the parts to manufacture a new large-capacity magazine, as long as you do not manufacture the magazine in the state of California.

Can I repair my old large-capacity magazines with new parts?
Yes. Existing (old) magazines may be repaired with new parts.

Can I use parts from new magazines that didn't exist before 2000 to repair and rebuild my old magazines?
Yes, the general consensus is that if any of the parts are interchangeable, it is legal.

An old and worn out USGI magazine, for example, can be rebuilt into a Magpul PMAG, because the spring from the USGI magazine is compatible with the PMAG.
Do I need to keep any parts from the original magazine in my newly rebuilt magazine?
No.

Can I change the capacity of my large-capacity magazine when I rebuild it?
Yes, it is legal to repair/rebuild your preexisting large capacity magazines of any capacity into larger or smaller capacity magazines (i.e. a 20 round mag can be rebuilt into a 30 round mag and vice versa), so long as they still work for the firearm intended.

The general consensus is that if the parts are interchangeable, it is legal (whether a 30 round USGI magazine can be built into a 100 round Beta C Mag, since the two share no common parts, is a topic of debate).

Can I use rebuild kits to make large capacity magazines for use out of state?
Yes. Magazine parts kits can be used to create new magazines when out of state, provided that before they return to the state, they are disassembled.

Can I use large-capacity magazine parts to build magazines that hold ten rounds or less?
Yes, It is legal to use the parts from a large-capacity magazine to manufacture a magazine that holds ten rounds or less. This modification must be permanent to be legal. A rivet or epoxy is generally considered permanent in the eyes of the law.

Can I get in trouble for shipping/sending assembled large capacity magazines into the state?
Yes. Out of state, non-residents of California are still subject to California law and can be extradited for breaking those laws, even if you never plan to visit the state.

This is not limited to large capacity magazine or firearms laws.

Use
Can I use my large-capacity magazines?
Yes.

Regardless of date or manner of acquisition, it is not illegal to use large capacity magazines.

Can I use the parts from a large-capacity magazine to create a magazine that holds ten rounds or less?
Yes. It is not illegal to convert a large-capacity magazine to a 10-round or smaller magazine.

If I have a ten round magazine for one caliber that holds more than ten rounds of another caliber, is it legal to use in the other caliber?
Yes.

Some magazines designed for 10 rounds of one caliber can accept more than ten rounds of a different caliber, and function in some firearms (Example: .50 Beowulf ten round magazines hold thirty rounds of .223). This is not illegal.

Is a magazine with ammunition in it a "loaded gun?"
No. A magazine with ammunition in it is not a ‘loaded gun.' It does not meet the Penal Code definition of a firearm.

Can I have ammunition in my magazines while transporting them?
Yes. When transporting a firearm, magazines may contain ammunition, so long as the magazines are not inserted in the magazine well of a firearm.

Lending large-capacity magazines
Can I loan my large-capacity magazine to a friend at the range?
You can lend a large-capacity magazine to a friend, if you stay together, as at a range.

Can't I just let him borrow the magazine to take to the range with him?
No. You cannot loan a large-capacity magazine to anyone, including family members, outside of your immediate presence.

Use of large-capacity magazines in "Bullet Buttoned" firearms
Can I use my large-capacity magazines in my firearm equipped with a "Bullet Button?"
NO! Rifles or pistols equipped with a bullet button (whether they are equipped with "evil features" or not) cannot use large capacity magazines. Large-capacity magazine laws are different from assault weapons laws.

Remember that 'bullet buttons' are only used on centerfire semi-automatic rifles.

Why?
A weapon with a "fixed magazine", which necessitates the use of a bullet button, also requires a 10-round or fewer magazine. Such a gun used with a large capacity magazine creates a Category 3 assault weapon.

What good are large capacity magazines then?
They can be used with firearms that do not have "Evil Features" or Bullet Buttons.
__________________
By the choices we make, we define ourselves, thereby revealing what we truly care about.

Last edited by blacksky; June 20, 2011 at 10:38 AM. Reason: content
blacksky is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 10:49 PM   #11
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Actually, possession isn't illegal. See the penal code citation above.

Legally possessed magazines are certainly not "illegal to use" unless you put them in a fixed magazine semi-auto.

lots of info here.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...zine_Questions
emcon5 is offline  
Old June 19, 2011, 10:57 PM   #12
.300 Weatherby Mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Posts: 1,777
Tube magazine rimfire rifles are the exemption to the 10 round mag capacity rule...
.300 Weatherby Mag is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 12:29 AM   #13
Norrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2008
Posts: 577
Ok so I don't have any actual official penal code links but you can read this page:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...e_restrictions

I wouldn't stake my life on the accuracy, but they do have excerpts from penal codes and explain them.


For those who are lazy:

Quote:
Simple possession of a large-capacity magazine is not prohibited. Note that it is illegal to offer or expose for sale a large-capacity magazine in California. This has the practical implication that one can not list a large-capacity magazine for sale on the internet to in or out of state buyers. One can disassemble the large-capacity magazine and sell the parts in or out of state. Note that the Bureau of Firearms statement that you can not buy large-capacity magazines is not supported by the Penal Code.
Norrick is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 07:24 AM   #14
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,071
I wonder how many crimes have been committed with high capacity mag weapons in CA (Other than the famous LA bank robbery)

Gotta love laws that aren't based on merit just emotion......
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 07:13 PM   #15
Ballenxj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2006
Posts: 312
Well, If nothing else, this thread has been an interesting read.
You folks that live in California need to retake your state and rejoin the union.
-Bruce
Ballenxj is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 08:02 PM   #16
blacksky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2008
Location: OH
Posts: 741
If only we could!

If only we could, unfortunately the the liberals control Kalifornia
__________________
By the choices we make, we define ourselves, thereby revealing what we truly care about.
blacksky is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 08:50 PM   #17
Ballenxj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2006
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksky
If only we could, unfortunately the the liberals control Kalifornia
Start by kicking all those controlling, money grubbing politicians to the curb,and go from there.
-Bruce
Ballenxj is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 09:33 PM   #18
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
Start by kicking all those controlling, money grubbing politicians to the curb,and go from there.
Unfortunately, that is pretty unlikely.
emcon5 is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 10:41 PM   #19
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
Regardless of date or manner of acquisition, it is not illegal to use large capacity magazines.
Quote:
No. Possession of a large-capacity magazine is NOT illegal, no matter how you got it or when you got it.[1]
Interesting.

Is this a clause to that (ie the date of acquisition)?

Quote:
§12020(a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
The possession of a "large-capacity magazine" is not a blanket prohibition. If you owned the magazines prior to January 1, 2000
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old June 22, 2011, 12:49 AM   #20
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Date of acquisition is crucial only for those firearms & magazines that were not available within California before 1/1/2000. For instance, the PX-4 Storm pistol was introduced after 1/1/2000 and thus the State would have a prima facie case that you "illegally imported" the magazines. Unless you were one of the "exempt few", such as a LEO, the state can claim there was no legal way for you to obtain the magazines. (Note: Buying a gun with hi-cap magazines from an exempt person is not legal. The mags must be 10-round or less when sold.)

If you didn't move into California on or before 1/1/2000, any "large capacity" magazines in your possession are of questionable origin. Likewise, if the manufacturer didn't sell that particular caliber of a model until after 1/1/2000 you can get screwed.

Remember, it is up to the State to prove you committed a crime. If the magazine(s) was/were made and available before 1/1/2000 that will be nearly impossible to do.

LEO's don't always know the law regarding firearms and you might get hassled about "illegal" magazines. The trick is to not talk yourself into jail.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old June 22, 2011, 10:28 PM   #21
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
Thanks for the info. Bill.

You mentioned LEO, am curious if this includes retired LEO?
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old June 23, 2011, 07:55 PM   #22
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoldenState
You mentioned LEO, am curious if this includes retired LEO?
TGS - I'm presuming you're asking about a gun manufactured after 1/1/2000 and related magazines.

First, I did not see an exemption for retired LEOs to purchase "large-capacity" magazines either with a gun or separately. I ain't no lawyer though so I could have missed it if it's buried elsewhere.

If you acquired the gun while an active-duty LEO and that acquisition was specifically for the discharge of (your) duties whether on or off duty, and where the use (was) authorized by the agency and (was) within the course and scope of (your) duties then you obtained the "large capacity magazines" within the law.

12020(b)(20) exempts sworn LEOs who are authorized to carry a firearm "in the course and scope of his or her duties." I'll leave it to a lawyer to interpret whether "retirement" consitutes the "course or scope" of a retiree's "duties".
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old June 24, 2011, 11:42 PM   #23
randomvalleyguy
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2011
Posts: 42
I think there needs to be a revolution in California, to take back what's ours and kick these corrupt money grubbing politicians out to the streets and reclaim our freedom, but it'll never happen. Would be kinda nice though It's easier to just move to another state. This state's going to hell in a hand basket. I'm like a rat deserting a sinking ship, Hi-Ho Arizona! People are nicer in Arizona too! Not so stuck up, :barf:
randomvalleyguy is offline  
Old June 26, 2011, 12:45 AM   #24
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
R.valleyguy,

There are several lawsuits in the works that will challenge many of the state laws. The next two years or so should be interesting ones in California.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old June 26, 2011, 10:14 AM   #25
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
As a resident & gun owner in the Non-free state of Kaliforina. Anything larger than a 10 round mag is illegal to use.
No. As was stated above, if you own them legally, you can use them.

The only caveat is that you don't want to use them is it would put the firearm in an illegal configuration, i.e. a +10 round fixed magazine.

The Penal code doesn't say what you can do, it says what you can't do.


This is what the law says:


Quote:
12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
Note the word "possess" isn't there. Note "use" isn't in there. In fact, note the words "find" and "buy" aren't in there either....

It has also been argued that the way the law is written, if I sell or give you a 11 round magazine, I have committed a crime, you have not.
emcon5 is offline  
Reply

Tags
california , high capacity magazine , magazine laws , rimfire rifles

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08764 seconds with 8 queries