August 15, 2009, 04:27 AM | #126 | |
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In a case here in California not long ago, a man exercising in his garage heard a commotion. When he heard screams of "Kill him!" he grabbed his .45 Auto, exited the garage and assessed the situation. A neighboring family was holding a family gathering. A younger nephew had gone off his meds and then argued with his uncle, stabbing him several times. The family was trying to get the blood-soaked uncle away and the nephew was slashing around with the knife. The citizen ordered the nephew to drop the knife twice, even after the family urged him "Shoot! Shoot!" and "Kill him, quick!" The man fired when the nephew lunged, killing him. Police did not file any charges and the Chief said it appeared the man acted legally, in self-defense and defending others. Of course, not everything will be clear cut. No one advocates shooting before trying to ascertain what the facts are. Your number one weapon is your brain. And you should spend time on making sure your brain functions as well as your sidearm. Like Old Marksman, I won't go places with a gun that I won't go without one. I won't go looking for trouble, I might find it. If believe there is a high probability there will be trouble I can't avoid, I'm likely to bring a long gun. And friends with long guns. Intervention can be done with your voice - Hey you! Stop! Show me your hands!, by making your presence obvious (those 100w driving lights at night for example) and other things - without resorting to your firearm - like calling 911.
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August 15, 2009, 05:44 AM | #127 |
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If you have strong opinions about the law, please take every opportunity to serve on juries. When you do, please remember threads like these - reasonable people can have widely different opinions about how the law should be interpreted. Before you vote to convict, ask "would there be folks on TFL defending this guy?" Look beyond your own experience, knowledge, training, and wisdom, and try to look through the eyes of somebody dumber than yourself when deciding what 'reasonable' is.
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August 15, 2009, 09:16 AM | #128 | |
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Good for you. Dr. Raoul Duke Gonzo Forever |
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August 15, 2009, 09:39 AM | #129 | |
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Scott
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August 15, 2009, 10:40 AM | #130 |
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Thank you, Dr. Duke...
... I appreciate your comments. I often wonder if anyone reads what I post, and whether there's much agreement with what I have to say here. I've had a NY CCW permit for about 45 years and have parsed these issues again and again as the environment regarding guns changed in the society and my nature evolved. I had always thought that there would come a time in the stream of my life where I would finally reach an end point, where I could stop and be what I had become from then on unchanged. I now see that's not only impossible for me, that's undesirable, and when that happens to people or societies, a lot is lost.
You are very fortunate to have had a mentor of the sort of man your Uncle Bill was for you. I think it's every old man's desire to have been able to pass on to young folks what they've learned about things, from diesel engines to moral values, as your uncle did.
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August 15, 2009, 04:05 PM | #131 | |
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If I were designing the educational curriculum for this, I would start with two things that were tought in my state CCW class:
I would add the following:
Examples of situations that may appear to indicate the need for intervention, but that are not what they seem, should be provided, along with a discussion of the severity of the civil and criminal liability that a citizen may assume by intervening inappropriately. I would advise people to consider intervention only when they know the apparent victims or when it is abundantly clear that not intervening is very likely to result in death or great bodily harm. The fact that most LEOs will not intervene when off duty should be pointed out and discussed. I would hope that similar education regarding when the use of deadly force is justified in other kinds of encounters, indoors and out, and when it is not, will be provided also. It is essential that anyone who carries a gun fully appreciate the fact that "adding a firearm into how one relates to the events and circumstances around them on the mundane daily routine of their lives complicates the issues and adds risks both legal and physical, because carrying a gun has a lot more gravity than many realize at first" and that it involves "the possibility of serious criminal charges and the potential to really harm someone are amplified 100 times with the presence of a gun that's brought forth". I hate to put it quite this way, but people have done some pretty bone-headed things and gotten themselves into lot of trouble from time to time. That does not help anyone at all. Let's work to inform and educate. |
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August 15, 2009, 10:21 PM | #132 | |
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But do not tell other people who feel the need to stand up for others in society that they shouldnt do whats right. |
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August 15, 2009, 10:29 PM | #133 |
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If you want to do what's right...
... just make you sure you know what you are doing first.
It would really suck to intervene, only to find out you took the wrong side based on misinterpreting what you were seeing. It would also really suck to intervene and cause harm to innocent third parties. It would also really, really suck to find that you had caused an escalation in the situation, and had effectively voided any right to claim self-defense. OldMarksman has NEVER said don't stand up for an obvious innocent victim; neither have I, or Uncle Billy, or anybody else. What we have all said is that you had better really understand your state's laws, both as they are written and as they have actually been executed in court; you had better make sure you have a complete grasp of the situation you choose to enter; and, you had better realize that life isn't TV, and that your intervention has a chance of making things worse even if you do understand what is happening. And OnTheJon55, you still come across as way too eager to draw a gun. |
August 15, 2009, 10:36 PM | #134 | |||
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August 15, 2009, 10:38 PM | #135 |
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Maybe so...
... but on the bright side, I won't first tell them to F off and flip them the bird. Please grow up.
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August 15, 2009, 10:43 PM | #136 | ||
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August 15, 2009, 10:48 PM | #137 |
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No, you are the one accusing others of having no stomach.
Let me put this to you another way:
Two of my best friends are plainclothes narcotics detectives. An overly assertive reaction to a fight or attempted "kidnapping" or "assault at gunpoint" by a CCW, during an attempt at an arrest of a BG by either of my friends could result in serious tragedy. So, for me, this discussion is not nearly so theoretical as it may be for you. Please note also that I already have intervened in more than one situation, when I was sure what was happening, and in those instances I wasn't armed. And in the example that you don't like me digging up, I probably wouldn't have helped you if I'd seen the whole thing, because I'd know that you had stirred up trouble and created a major legal problem for me. However, I would have stepped in to protect your sister, who was the innocent bystander. I generally try not to single people out, but you really should not be accusing people of timidity or bad judgment, especially after having so many others tell you the same thing. |
August 15, 2009, 11:06 PM | #138 | |||
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EDIT: well this is getting horribly off topic i believe im done here... Last edited by onthejon55; August 15, 2009 at 11:15 PM. |
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August 15, 2009, 11:30 PM | #139 | ||
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On top of that, there are a good many of us who feel that taking the chance of leaving our families fatherless and husbandless because of a stolen duffel bag is equally wrong. Your attempt to associate killing over a duffel bag with failing to assist a choking victim is assinine at best. Quote:
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August 16, 2009, 03:06 AM | #140 | ||
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August 16, 2009, 08:34 AM | #141 |
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OnTheJon:
You are entitled to your own opinion, everyone is.
When you make it public in a forum you put it up for comment and criticism. If you don't consider what others have said about your opinion with objectivity and using reasoning, you miss a lot of opportunities to learn and possibly better your understanding. Taking benefit from the criticism others offer requires that you be able to see past how it's stated- even if they've put what they think into sharp language, or say it in a demeaning way, the seed ideas they've stated are still worth considering. If your intent is only to be heard but not to listen, then start a one-way blog.
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August 16, 2009, 08:37 AM | #142 | ||
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Are you serious?
OntheJon55, on why his comparison of potentially killing somebody over a possibly stolen duffel bag was akin to failing to assist a choking victim made sense to him:
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Not only that, but an awful lot of people who would not shoot a stranger over a duffel bag, would assist choking or accident victims without a second thought. OntheJon55 also said: Quote:
If you don't want to understand the laws of your state, and if you really think that being charged with homicide is anything like a civil suit, you really should stop carrying that .22 of yours. With your attitude, you are a walking liability to yourself and others. |
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August 16, 2009, 10:08 AM | #143 |
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Looks like this one is done.
Do I need to elaborate as to why? pax |
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