Which Shot at Close Range?

[LASur5r]

There has been a lot of discussion about shooting a BG in the pelvic girdle to stop him from continuuing.
In your folks' estimation, if a BG was moving in fast with a blunt instrument or a knife, etc...would you try for center of mass or pelvic girdle?

What would be the best/fastest technique of stopping him?( from advancing on you?)

[tprT]

I would still shoot center mass. A pelvic girdle shot is an alternative to a head shot when center mass shots appear not to stop them for one reason or another...use of body armor for example. The thing that a well placed pelvic girdle shot MAY do is make him fall and possibly bleed to death in time. However, just because he's on the ground doesn't mean he's out of the fight.

T

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If not you, then who?

[This message has been edited by tprT (edited October 11, 2000).]

[M1911]

Yup, I'm with tprT on this. First shots to center of mass. If that doesn't stop him, then perhaps he has body armor. The two important places that body armor doesn't cover are the pelvis and the head. The head is small, armored, and very mobile. The pelvis is larger. If he has a contact weapon, sure try for the pelvis if center of mass shots don't stop him. Because if he only has a contact weapon, then if he's on the ground, he is out of the fight. If he's got a gun, on the other hand...

M1911

[tprT]

That is true that if he has a contact weapon he is out of the fight while on the ground. But...remember the +1 rule. Always expect one more weapon than you see. The minute you turn your back....

T

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If not you, then who?

[atlctyslkr]

COM, then pelvis, then head (in that order and if necessary). As soon as Mr. BG stumbles, falls, loses bearings, put as much distance between me and him as possible.!

[Raptor5191]

Center Mass. Hopefully the primary shots to COM slow him down enough so you can take a more aimed shot at the brain bucket if the COM shots don't stop him.

At the same time you should be moving as well. Do not stand and let him come at you.

[mete]

Best shots are upper chest ,not center of mass ! Pelic shots would be second choice.

[pickpocket]

There has been no solid medical evidence to support that low-velocity handgun caliber rounds would be consistently effective in shattering a pelvic bone. This has been discussed a lot, and I'm not saying it wouldn't work - I'm just saying the jury's still out on this one as a viable tactic.

Besides, this is really just the "Headshot vs. COM" discussion with different clothes on. We're talking reliable precision shots under stress with a handgun.

COM, all day every day.

Originally Posted by mete

Best shots are upper chest ,not center of mass

I have always described them as one and the same.

[Odd Job]

There has been no solid medical evidence to support that low-velocity handgun caliber rounds would be consistently effective in shattering a pelvic bone.

Well, the problem is that there is alot of bone in the pelvis, and not much of it is critical in terms of a BG maintaining his footing. If you wanted to be technical about this, you would have to ensure hits to the acetabulum area or the upper femora themselves to get any satisfactory mechanical effect.

And even then, in a broad sense as many have noted, a guy who loses footing (whether it is one or two) is still a guy with arms and the command control to use them. I say leave the pelvis out of the equation unless that is all you can get.

[Raptor5191]

By COM I am referring to the imaginary line drawn across the chest halfway between the nipple and neck.

[Dre_sa]

if he is advancing on you, then the best shot would be the one you can get off the quickest,and still get a reasonable hit. i'd say COM.

[Oregongundude]

I would think a shot through the thoat, or upper chest would be a more effective shot especially if it hits the spine, or the spinal cord would give you a better chance at dropping the bg. Most Spinal shots are deadly which will stop the attack in 10 out of 10 cases.

If he is still moving forward a shot to the knee will stop his forward progress.

This is just my opinion

"God created Man; Sam Colt made them all equal."

[Double Naught Spy]

Raptor, COM isn't where you suggest it is. In fact, the point you indicate, a line across the chest halfway between the nipple and the neck is extremely high on the torso about a whole foot from COM and a foot's distance is considerable. COM is actually in the area of the xiphoid process of the sternum or slightly lower if you define COM as being the mass of the body itself without appendages. If you include appendages (and nobody does), the location is even lower. The shot you indicate, if landed, is close to being above the heart. Your shot is even high for COC, Center of Chest.

COM and COC are NOT the same thing. The purpose of COM shots is to give the shooter the most room for error while still hitting the target. COC shots give the shooter the most room for error while still hitting the vital cardiopulmonary system organs. For example, an intended COC shot that goes high right (say 1 foot) may completely miss a person while the same amount of error for a COM shot would land in the person's shoulder.

pickpocket is right, pistol ammo isn't reported as a great pelvis shatterer and shattering the pelvis is one of those gun myths. The notion I have been taught at more than one gun school is that you shoot the person in the pelvis, sometimes described as in the hip, and you shatter it and the person goes down. The problem is most folks are clueless as to where shot placement needs to be for a shot to cause a physical break or collapse of the pelvis such that the person will no longer have the bony support for locomotion (walking, running, crawling, etc.). There are no obvious landmarks on a clothed person who is running toward you.

People are shot in the pelvic region and do go down often times. People are shot in the gut and go down often times. There are people shot in the arm that go down. So the notion that folks go down when shot "there" (wherever "there" is) and will go down isn't a very good criterion for determining shot placement since people seem to go down a lot when shot when going down isn't because of some form of physical collapse brought about by the injury such as would be the case with an actual shattered pelvis or severed spinal cord.

If you are good enough with shooting to shoot a person in the critical areas of the pelvis while that person is charging you, then you are good enough to make a much easier head shot. For the pelvis, the shot most likely to produce the traumatic break you want will be at the acetabulum, the socket of the pelvis into which fits the femoral head. Put a slug into the socket and you will most likely disrupt its ability to allow movement of the leg or cause it to lose its hold on the leg. The problem is, there are no external landmarks to tell you where the acetabulum is precisely.

While not a pelvic shot, a shot that breaks the femoral head or separates the femoral head from the neck or the neck from the shaft of the femur will curtail the ability for locomotion with that leg. There is no external landmark for this either.

Pelvic shots are fine in the sense the person may be stopped, assuming you even hit the pelvis, but most folks don't shoot the pelvis and end up with a low gut shot instead and the person still goes down, but out of reaction and pain, not physical collapse of the body's ability to carry its own weight.

[Don H]

Having fractured my pelvis in three places once, I think I can say, based on my personal experience, that a broken pelvis will not necessarily stop (as in cease to be an active danger) a BG.

And yes, I do realize that this is a six-year old thread that has been resuscitated and given new life for some unknown reason.

[pickpocket]

Hmm.....good catch, Doc. I failed to catch that part. Well...hopefully we added some value!

[Raptor5191]

DoubleNaught,

Yes sir, I understand that is not the actual COM. That is simply the point that my instructors pointed to when they were referring to shot placement, COM.

Going much lower can be fatal, but is not as likely to cause as much as an immediate effect.

You bring up some good points, sir.

[bdcochran]

A good "hypothetical".

You react as you train. So, unless you train in thinking "shot placement" within a millisecond or so, you are going to shoot how you perfect practice.

In laymen's terms, the question is academic and the common sense response is that if you do train to shoot the pressure points, the bladder, the base of the neck (meaning wherever you want to shoot), you will make that decision instantaneously.

Assistant squad leader shot dead at a distance of 4 feet in the chest with a .308 round. Was he dead when shot by hydrostatic shock? No.

The points are: 1. a person in movement may still be in movement despite a "kill shot"; 2. let us know after the encounter.

A base of the throat shot is good, a head shot is good, a bladder shot is good, a shot that takes out a leg is good.

How many people do you know train to shoot this way? I know very few.

People shoot "center mass" because they are not taught shot placement. Center mass is the largest target on the human body. I had a foreign country SF Lt. Col. complain that his people did not shoot for exposed legs, elbows, arms. Well, they simply weren't trained to do it. Then his team was trained to think in terms of cutting and indexing so that they weren't hesitant to shoot an exposed elbow. Just think if a guy is trained to think "center mass" "center mass" and then has to shoot and center mass is not exposed!

Frankly, I am going to shoot from wherever my handgun or file is located if the person is close in. If it is light, it is the base of the throat. If it is dark, lower down. None of the "two to the chest, one to the head" (garbage). Just keep firing until the threat is terminated.

There is nothing to require you to be static in your hypotetical, so MOVE! Yes, you can be trained to shoot handgun, rifle, shotgun and/or machine gun while on the move. Once I received permission to shoot the 100 yard standing leg at a DCM match while walking. Isn't this what you really want to do in your life and not stand static and let some one shoot back at you?

If all you are ever taught or can do is shoot center mass, then do it.

I give you a story. I was taught to rock, draw and shoot at close distance. It really bothered me. So, I thought outside the box and asked a san soo master who was a shooting instructor to demonstrate what he would do. He moved at an angle, drew and shot the target as he raced by with strong arm retention. When you reflect on how few people think in those terms, perfect practice that way, and are open in their thinking, you realize how much we all have to learn.

I would have sent this as a private email, but it is not allowed on this board.

By the way, assume it is light. If you shoot for the base of the throat and hit a bit high, low, to the right or the left, what do you hit? Is there body armor or heavy clothing at those points? Is center mass where body armor or heavy clothing would be?

[Blackwater OPS]

Plus one for center mass, but of course that is a misnomer, "center mass" is actually the chest area not the upper stomach or something. If center mas shot have no affect you need to shoot somewhere else obviously, but it could be the legs or head depending on conditions and skill level.