Maryland Road Rage Fatality (true story) - Page 2

old bear · June 7, 2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

First step... don't drive like an idiot and you will avoid the vast majority of these altercations. If you cut someone off, give them a "I'm sorry" wave. This diffuses most situations.

AA + 1 to the above!

If the above does not defuse the situation, if someone is approaching me with a weapon and it is impossible to retreat I’m going to consider my life in danger. As much as I would hate to have to hurt someone, I will not give anyone a chance to hurt a family member, a friend, or myself. To be very blunt I would have no qualms running them over or shooting them. Warning shots will not be fired.

Florida Cracker · June 7, 2010, 08:55 PM

We had this case locally last year where a US Customs agent got into a road rage incident with a 65 year old man and followed him into a post office parking lot and ended up getting shot.
After being originally charged w/ first degree murder, the grand jury returned with a manslaughter charge after hearing the witness accounts. Now mind you, the customs agent did all of this with his 12 y.o. daughter in the car and he ended up getting shot in front of her. The 65 y.o. had a concealed weapon permit and the agent never identified himself as a LEO. I think the only reason they returned with the manslaughter charge is he shot the agent as he was walking away. Lot's of untold details but rumors say the agent was either carrying and flashed his weapon to the 65 y.o. guy who then shot the customs agent or he told the guy he was going to his car to get a gun.

http://cbs4.com/local/killer.post.office.2.805245.html

Grand Jury Charges Manslaughter In Agent's Death
James Wonder Admitted To Shooting Donald Pettit

FORT LAUDERDALE (CBS4) ―
James Patrick Wonder of Miramar was indicted on a charge of manslaughter in the shooting of federal agent Donald Pettit

Members of a Broward grand jury have indicted James Wonder on charge of manslaughter in the death of federal agent Donald Pettit.

Wonder, 65, is currently being held without bond in the shooting death of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent who was gunned down Aug. 5 in a Pembroke Pines post office parking lot.

If Wonder had been indicted on first or second degree murder charges, he could have faced life in prison or possibly the death penalty if convicted. Under the charge of manslaughter, he faces up to 15 years in prison.

A police report on Pettit's death cites road rage as the cause of the murder; it also paints a picture of Pettit acting aggressively against Wonder who admits to pulling the trigger.

Pembroke Pines police say Wonder and Pettit were involved in some verbal exchange on Dykes Road, where Wonder may have been driving erratically; the two men exchanged places on the road, one cutting off the other car.

Police say both men traded insulting middle finger gestures, which ended when Wonder pulled into the post office. Pettit passed the post office then turned back into the post office parking lot where Wonder had parked.

Both men got out of their car, according to the police department's probable cause report, and continued their argument. The report said Wonder admitted to reaching into his waistband, pulling a handgun and shooting Pettit once in the head.

Deputy Chief Mike Segarra said Pettit was shot in the back of the head.

Segarra was unable to say if Pettit had business in the post office and pulled in to do that business, or if he was there only because of the confrontation with Wonder.

Wonder was taken into custody by investigators at the Universal Kidney Center in Davie.

Neighbors said they were "all in shock," when they learned about the crime. Wonder remains jailed on a charge of first degree murder.

45Gunner · June 7, 2010, 11:34 PM

The scenario has lots of possible outcomes as each different factor causes a action -reaction game play.

I am not an aggressive driver nor am I one to be maniacal with road rage. I live in South Florida which is resplendid with bad drivers, morons, bottom of the life barrel, old folks, and wise guys. I have been hit by a car while riding my motorcycle, rear-ended while stopped at a traffic light three times while in my car, side-swiped twice, and shot at by an ex-boyfriend while retrieving a bicycle for a friend. None of the above incidents involved road rage. The one time I did not have a gun was....you guessed it, when I was shot at. By the way, that moron did some serious jail time.

According to the laws of my State, I cannot brandish a weapon to diffuse a situation. If I do, it is a mandatory 5 year jail sentence. However, I am perfectly legal to respond to a deadly threat where I feel I will suffer death or great bodily harm. If someone is coming at me with a weapon, gun or knife, I perceive that as impending great bodily harm or death.

Call 911, describe the situation in detail, and keep them on the line...it will CYA. And for my money, I'm out of there if I can find an escape route. I would rather not be judged by a jury of my peers if I can help it...my ego is not that big that I must stand my ground...nor is my bank account.

Rich Miranda · June 8, 2010, 01:15 AM

Quote:

So a scenario:.... You (a civilian) unintentionally anger another motorist.... Thoughts?

Booker, a very tough question to answer. It's one of those things that is difficult to answer because you don't really know what you would do in that situation, unless you are in that situation.

On top of that, there are just so many variables to consider. If you consider each variable in your response, my post would be 2 pages long.

A couple of thoughts, though:

Stay out of these situations in the first place:

If you get cut off, just let it go and drive away. Do you think that Mr. Simmons (doing 30 years hard time) still thinks it was worthwhile to stop and get out?
If you cut someone off, apologize profusely. Give the "I'm sorry" wave and the "I'm an idiot" look. You might have to swallow some pride but what if the guy you cut off was Mr. Simmons?
If you slip and let your anger get the best of you, it's never too late to just STOP it. Instead of continuing to engage in road rage arguing/threatening/taunting over the course of several miles, if you realize you're acting stupid, just get away from the situation. Your life - and others' - may well depend on you doing this. Again, swallowing some pride may suck today, but at least it won't suck 30 years from now.

Drive Smart:

Be a good driver. Don't drive like you're the only one out there. We have to share the roads, right? Don't tailgate, don't instigate (flash brights, etc.).
When you stop behind the vehicle in front of you at a traffic light, or in traffic, leave yourself an out! At a minimum, make sure that you can see the back tires of the car ahead of you. This will ensure that if that car breaks down - or an attacker approaches - you have enough room to easily turn right or left and go around that vehicle.

JMHO

MagSxS · June 8, 2010, 01:31 AM

just a somewhat personal story, my friend was very close to a confrontation while driving.

He cut off someone and the other person followed him (on the highway). My friend decided to speed up, up to speeds of 90mph, with the person still in pursuit. So my friend exited the highway and turned into a busy strip mall area (the person still following).

Eventually, he lost the guy following him through the maze of parking lot.

Luckily, because my friend wasn't blocked in, he was still able to drive, and could have kept driving until the police arrived (if he didn't lose the other guy in the parking lot he was going to call the police)

Sure, he could have done things differently, but as the old adage goes "hindsight is 20/20" -- so you really don't know what you would do until you're actually in the situation

booker_t · June 8, 2010, 07:42 AM

Rich, good post. I agree with everything you say. It's part of being a mature adult to realize that people get cut off, you get cut off, sometimes you're in a person's blind spot, etc.. and to get worked up over it just isn't worth it. Move along, get to your destination.

I think a lot of people forget that at 65mph you're going 88ft/sec. The difference between leaving 2 car lenths and 5 or 6 car lengths (like you're supposed to) is the difference of a second or two in driving time. Over the course of a 20 mile trip, the difference between 65mph and 80mph is all of 3.5 minutes. Battling for 3 minutes on the highway isn't really worth the increase in blood pressure and chance of getting shot or going to jail, now is it?

A personal story, when I was much younger (early 20s) I was driving on a somewhat rural road, 40 or 45mph, in central PA. I was behind a plain jane Crown Vic with tints. About 200 yards before a red stoplight there was a downhill, and the Vic started to slow down, and then really slow down, to a 5mph crawl with a good 50 yards to go before the red light. At this point I was kinda close, within 2 car lengths while still riding the brake down this hill.

The Vic stops suddenly, 20-30 yards before the intersection. There's about 20 feet between my stopped car and his, I'm alone and it's mid-day. Mind you, there are NO other cars in sight, let alone in front of us. Man gets out, starts walking sternly to my window. As he comes up he flashes a badge and starts yelling about do I always drive like that, that he could take me in right now. I had my window cracked so I could communicate, looked at him blankly for a second, turned and looked at the distance between our cars (20 feet, a bit more than a car length), then looked back at him. I said something like "No I don't always ride my brake downhill.." This is central PA, lots of fairly steep mountains, and riding your brake down a mountain is a recipe for brake failure and automotive cliff diving. He yelled something else and turned away. I'll never forget that day.

I wish state police would enforce the "cruise right, pass left" laws more aggressively. It could really improve public safety.

I wish formal driver education included more philosophy. Teach kids to be aware of when you are in somebody's blind spot, recognize it, and try to avoid it. Teach them the numbers behind speed, including how much distance you really need to stop from 75mph on wet roads, and being able to use visual cues to estimate distances.

Likewise, when I'm in the left-region of a road and there's a guy who wants to go 110, I see him and move over. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, even if I'm going 78 or 85 and cruising.. maybe he's in a legitimate emergency, or maybe he's just an idiot. Either way, what is it for me to flick on the signal and move over to make room for him? I know there are people out there who "pick a speed and pick a lane" and drive it. Could be one of the more dangerous ways to drive. Likewise, I try to make room for motorcyclists who are going way too fast for the conditions. They're going to try to sneak through one way or another. If can I move to one side of the lane or the other and make it easier, again, we all are a little better off.

I disagree that "speed kills." Speed makes collisions more violent, it increases the fatality rate. Speed alone is rarely the true origin of a collision or accident. If it was, then a car cruising at 90mph on an empty highway would be far more likely to wreck than a bunch of them going 35mph.. and that's just not the case. Most collisions on the highway are initiated by lane changes or mismatched speed (read end hits).

m&p, good story, I'm glad it worked out well in the end, everyone went home safe. I'm sure the guy with the Club will think twice next time he tries to harrass somebody on the road. Out of curiosity, and to tie this all back to the gun conversation, were you carrying cocked & locked, or did you have to rack the slide when you got out in preparation? That's an ongoing discussion, and if you're in a vehicle, I could see it being more difficult to rack a slide, get your cell phone and dial 9-1-1, get your seatbelt off, put your car into park or set the parking brake if needed.

JohnH1963 · June 8, 2010, 08:06 AM

No story is ever one-sided except in rare instances. Fights are usually caused by both parties. So in this case, one person was not driving well while the other person went way overboard and committed a violent act. The best way to stay out of such situations is not to engage in an anti-social behavior in the first place. Drive as well as you can and dont engage in a violent behavior if someone cuts you off.

In this day and age, anti-social behavior is on the rise because of the economy, a lack of jobs and so many other factors. Never leave the safety of your car or roll down the windows if someone with unknown intentions approaches. In fact, its better to drive off and if they chase you then drive to a police station. I think now for then ever before in the last 15 years you need to be on-guard and alert of the people who approach you.

If there was any criminal behavior in any shape or form such as the guy scratched your car or it was by definition an assault, then file a complaint no matter what. Ultimately, the police probably can't do anything, but its best to keep everything on the record. Lets say the guy who chased you sees you again, lives down the street or works close by and decides he wants to come back at you for a second go. Then you at least have the first incident on record and a stronger case can be built against them eventually.

markj · June 8, 2010, 03:58 PM

Slow as I drive the ol truck many that are in line behind me could be having a road rage moment I imagine..... the closer they get to me the slower I go.

Had a guy pass me at a high rate of speed only to encounter a deer a mile ahead. I did wave as I drove by at 25 mph. He had a cell so he probably called a wrecker...

Was running a tractor thru a s curve, has duals on the back kinda stick out. A kid in a toyota was running hard into the s from the other direction. He hit one of them tires and it bounced him into the ditch. Car wasnt there in the morning...

I was in L.A. on the freway, hit the signal to change lanes and the guy slowed down and let me in. Imagine that, he was polite, something that simply doesnt happen around here. My relatives out there told me folks are polite on the freeway due to some getting shot.

Smile and wave boys, smile and wave....

indykappa · June 8, 2010, 04:26 PM

markj, i sincerely hope that i am misinterpreting your statement...but are you saying that you slow down if a car is attempting to pass you? if you hang out in the left-hand lane, and intentionally slow down, then it is YOU who are driving irresponsibly.

now, if that is not the case, then i offer a thousand apologies...

i hate LLLs (left lane lovers). check your manhood at the on-ramp and get the heck outta my way!!

FM12 · June 8, 2010, 08:44 PM

Chucky 222: Thanks for the update.

Hook686 · June 9, 2010, 12:15 AM

Peetzakilla wrote:

Quote:

If your life is in immediate jeopardy then you would be entirely justified in running the guy over.

At just what point do you determine this. OP stated guy approaches option A) with weapon, option B) without weapon.

As far as option A), I just saw a video where the guy that got out of the car with a gun and aggressively approached the driver (biker) was actually an undercover, or cop in plain clothes.

For option B), the guy just wants to let you know you cut him off.

personally I do not think there is much of an option if you are gridlocked. I think you keep the doors locked, windows up and hand on your concealed carry gun. If the guy starts breaking windows with the weapon, then you shoot. Or is traffic starts moving, you exit, 'Stage left'

markj · June 14, 2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

but are you saying that you slow down if a car is attempting to pass you?

Not at all, I am saying when a vehicle rides my bumper I slow down, I wont go faster just cause someone is rideing the rear end of my truck. In other words, when a person tailgates me I slow my vehicle down. If they pass, fine let em go, if they persist in riding my rear I hit the brakes. If they still dont get it I pull over and let em fly on by.

I live out in the country, Deer are very plentiful, I have paid the 250 deductable 7 times so far on 3 vehicles. I dont like to entice them deer into running into my cars, the truck I dont care about let them run into it, killed 8 or 9 with it in 10 years now. They run right into you, not the front but the sides doors.

Drive carefully, smile and wave at all that may be angry.

June 7, 2010, 08:55 PM	#27
Florida Cracker Member Join Date: May 16, 2010 Location: Weston, FL Posts: 55	We had this case locally last year where a US Customs agent got into a road rage incident with a 65 year old man and followed him into a post office parking lot and ended up getting shot. After being originally charged w/ first degree murder, the grand jury returned with a manslaughter charge after hearing the witness accounts. Now mind you, the customs agent did all of this with his 12 y.o. daughter in the car and he ended up getting shot in front of her. The 65 y.o. had a concealed weapon permit and the agent never identified himself as a LEO. I think the only reason they returned with the manslaughter charge is he shot the agent as he was walking away. Lot's of untold details but rumors say the agent was either carrying and flashed his weapon to the 65 y.o. guy who then shot the customs agent or he told the guy he was going to his car to get a gun. http://cbs4.com/local/killer.post.office.2.805245.html Grand Jury Charges Manslaughter In Agent's Death James Wonder Admitted To Shooting Donald Pettit FORT LAUDERDALE (CBS4) ― James Patrick Wonder of Miramar was indicted on a charge of manslaughter in the shooting of federal agent Donald Pettit Members of a Broward grand jury have indicted James Wonder on charge of manslaughter in the death of federal agent Donald Pettit. Wonder, 65, is currently being held without bond in the shooting death of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent who was gunned down Aug. 5 in a Pembroke Pines post office parking lot. If Wonder had been indicted on first or second degree murder charges, he could have faced life in prison or possibly the death penalty if convicted. Under the charge of manslaughter, he faces up to 15 years in prison. A police report on Pettit's death cites road rage as the cause of the murder; it also paints a picture of Pettit acting aggressively against Wonder who admits to pulling the trigger. Pembroke Pines police say Wonder and Pettit were involved in some verbal exchange on Dykes Road, where Wonder may have been driving erratically; the two men exchanged places on the road, one cutting off the other car. Police say both men traded insulting middle finger gestures, which ended when Wonder pulled into the post office. Pettit passed the post office then turned back into the post office parking lot where Wonder had parked. Both men got out of their car, according to the police department's probable cause report, and continued their argument. The report said Wonder admitted to reaching into his waistband, pulling a handgun and shooting Pettit once in the head. Deputy Chief Mike Segarra said Pettit was shot in the back of the head. Segarra was unable to say if Pettit had business in the post office and pulled in to do that business, or if he was there only because of the confrontation with Wonder. Wonder was taken into custody by investigators at the Universal Kidney Center in Davie. Neighbors said they were "all in shock," when they learned about the crime. Wonder remains jailed on a charge of first degree murder. __________________ Brian Floridians - Stop paying too much for your hobby - http://groupbuybulkammo.com/

June 7, 2010, 11:34 PM	#28
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	The scenario has lots of possible outcomes as each different factor causes a action -reaction game play. I am not an aggressive driver nor am I one to be maniacal with road rage. I live in South Florida which is resplendid with bad drivers, morons, bottom of the life barrel, old folks, and wise guys. I have been hit by a car while riding my motorcycle, rear-ended while stopped at a traffic light three times while in my car, side-swiped twice, and shot at by an ex-boyfriend while retrieving a bicycle for a friend. None of the above incidents involved road rage. The one time I did not have a gun was....you guessed it, when I was shot at. By the way, that moron did some serious jail time. According to the laws of my State, I cannot brandish a weapon to diffuse a situation. If I do, it is a mandatory 5 year jail sentence. However, I am perfectly legal to respond to a deadly threat where I feel I will suffer death or great bodily harm. If someone is coming at me with a weapon, gun or knife, I perceive that as impending great bodily harm or death. Call 911, describe the situation in detail, and keep them on the line...it will CYA. And for my money, I'm out of there if I can find an escape route. I would rather not be judged by a jury of my peers if I can help it...my ego is not that big that I must stand my ground...nor is my bank account. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

June 8, 2010, 07:42 AM	#31
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	Rich, good post. I agree with everything you say. It's part of being a mature adult to realize that people get cut off, you get cut off, sometimes you're in a person's blind spot, etc.. and to get worked up over it just isn't worth it. Move along, get to your destination. I think a lot of people forget that at 65mph you're going 88ft/sec. The difference between leaving 2 car lenths and 5 or 6 car lengths (like you're supposed to) is the difference of a second or two in driving time. Over the course of a 20 mile trip, the difference between 65mph and 80mph is all of 3.5 minutes. Battling for 3 minutes on the highway isn't really worth the increase in blood pressure and chance of getting shot or going to jail, now is it? A personal story, when I was much younger (early 20s) I was driving on a somewhat rural road, 40 or 45mph, in central PA. I was behind a plain jane Crown Vic with tints. About 200 yards before a red stoplight there was a downhill, and the Vic started to slow down, and then really slow down, to a 5mph crawl with a good 50 yards to go before the red light. At this point I was kinda close, within 2 car lengths while still riding the brake down this hill. The Vic stops suddenly, 20-30 yards before the intersection. There's about 20 feet between my stopped car and his, I'm alone and it's mid-day. Mind you, there are NO other cars in sight, let alone in front of us. Man gets out, starts walking sternly to my window. As he comes up he flashes a badge and starts yelling about do I always drive like that, that he could take me in right now. I had my window cracked so I could communicate, looked at him blankly for a second, turned and looked at the distance between our cars (20 feet, a bit more than a car length), then looked back at him. I said something like "No I don't always ride my brake downhill.." This is central PA, lots of fairly steep mountains, and riding your brake down a mountain is a recipe for brake failure and automotive cliff diving. He yelled something else and turned away. I'll never forget that day. I wish state police would enforce the "cruise right, pass left" laws more aggressively. It could really improve public safety. I wish formal driver education included more philosophy. Teach kids to be aware of when you are in somebody's blind spot, recognize it, and try to avoid it. Teach them the numbers behind speed, including how much distance you really need to stop from 75mph on wet roads, and being able to use visual cues to estimate distances. Likewise, when I'm in the left-region of a road and there's a guy who wants to go 110, I see him and move over. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, even if I'm going 78 or 85 and cruising.. maybe he's in a legitimate emergency, or maybe he's just an idiot. Either way, what is it for me to flick on the signal and move over to make room for him? I know there are people out there who "pick a speed and pick a lane" and drive it. Could be one of the more dangerous ways to drive. Likewise, I try to make room for motorcyclists who are going way too fast for the conditions. They're going to try to sneak through one way or another. If can I move to one side of the lane or the other and make it easier, again, we all are a little better off. I disagree that "speed kills." Speed makes collisions more violent, it increases the fatality rate. Speed alone is rarely the true origin of a collision or accident. If it was, then a car cruising at 90mph on an empty highway would be far more likely to wreck than a bunch of them going 35mph.. and that's just not the case. Most collisions on the highway are initiated by lane changes or mismatched speed (read end hits). m&p, good story, I'm glad it worked out well in the end, everyone went home safe. I'm sure the guy with the Club will think twice next time he tries to harrass somebody on the road. Out of curiosity, and to tie this all back to the gun conversation, were you carrying cocked & locked, or did you have to rack the slide when you got out in preparation? That's an ongoing discussion, and if you're in a vehicle, I could see it being more difficult to rack a slide, get your cell phone and dial 9-1-1, get your seatbelt off, put your car into park or set the parking brake if needed. Last edited by booker_t; June 8, 2010 at 07:56 AM.

June 8, 2010, 01:31 AM	#30
MagSxS Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Location: AZ Posts: 48	just a somewhat personal story, my friend was very close to a confrontation while driving. He cut off someone and the other person followed him (on the highway). My friend decided to speed up, up to speeds of 90mph, with the person still in pursuit. So my friend exited the highway and turned into a busy strip mall area (the person still following). Eventually, he lost the guy following him through the maze of parking lot. Luckily, because my friend wasn't blocked in, he was still able to drive, and could have kept driving until the police arrived (if he didn't lose the other guy in the parking lot he was going to call the police) Sure, he could have done things differently, but as the old adage goes "hindsight is 20/20" -- so you really don't know what you would do until you're actually in the situation

June 8, 2010, 08:06 AM	#32
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	No story is ever one-sided except in rare instances. Fights are usually caused by both parties. So in this case, one person was not driving well while the other person went way overboard and committed a violent act. The best way to stay out of such situations is not to engage in an anti-social behavior in the first place. Drive as well as you can and dont engage in a violent behavior if someone cuts you off. In this day and age, anti-social behavior is on the rise because of the economy, a lack of jobs and so many other factors. Never leave the safety of your car or roll down the windows if someone with unknown intentions approaches. In fact, its better to drive off and if they chase you then drive to a police station. I think now for then ever before in the last 15 years you need to be on-guard and alert of the people who approach you. If there was any criminal behavior in any shape or form such as the guy scratched your car or it was by definition an assault, then file a complaint no matter what. Ultimately, the police probably can't do anything, but its best to keep everything on the record. Lets say the guy who chased you sees you again, lives down the street or works close by and decides he wants to come back at you for a second go. Then you at least have the first incident on record and a stronger case can be built against them eventually.

June 8, 2010, 03:58 PM	#33
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Slow as I drive the ol truck many that are in line behind me could be having a road rage moment I imagine..... the closer they get to me the slower I go. Had a guy pass me at a high rate of speed only to encounter a deer a mile ahead. I did wave as I drove by at 25 mph. He had a cell so he probably called a wrecker... Was running a tractor thru a s curve, has duals on the back kinda stick out. A kid in a toyota was running hard into the s from the other direction. He hit one of them tires and it bounced him into the ditch. Car wasnt there in the morning... I was in L.A. on the freway, hit the signal to change lanes and the guy slowed down and let me in. Imagine that, he was polite, something that simply doesnt happen around here. My relatives out there told me folks are polite on the freeway due to some getting shot. Smile and wave boys, smile and wave....

June 8, 2010, 04:26 PM	#34
indykappa Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: charlotte, nc (but indianapolis is home) Posts: 100	markj, i sincerely hope that i am misinterpreting your statement...but are you saying that you slow down if a car is attempting to pass you? if you hang out in the left-hand lane, and intentionally slow down, then it is YOU who are driving irresponsibly. now, if that is not the case, then i offer a thousand apologies... i hate LLLs (left lane lovers). check your manhood at the on-ramp and get the heck outta my way!!

June 8, 2010, 08:44 PM	#35
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Chucky 222: Thanks for the update.