Too much range practice???

[Van55]

On another bulletin board not dedicated to firearms, I guy posted that he goes to the range to practice at least once a week.

Another guy responded that he thought that was too much practice time, pointing out that conditions at the range (eyes and ears, stationary targets, good climate conditions, etc.) are far different from what one might experience in an emergency (e.g. waking up in the middle of the night, loading groceries into one's car, walking in the rain to a parking lot).

My own view is that one can get some very helpful practice for emergency needs at the range -- shooting center of mass without sighting, learning one's weapon(s), instinctively clicking off the safety when raising the gun to shoot.

Is there such a thing as too much range practice? What range drills are there that are likely to improve one's performance in a real life situation?

[VHinch]

There's no such thing as to much quality training. Reality is that a flat range is what most of us have the most access to. If you're actually working through drills and producing positive results, then no, you can't do it to much.

Now on the other hand, if you're just going to the range and doing mag dump after mag dump you might as well just throw the box of ammo downrange, since you're doing yourself about as much good.

[Lavid2002]

I think there is too much practice.

It wax explained to me like this... If one goes to the range to "Practice" his or her bad habits then there can be a problem. If they are self-taught and are training the wrong procedures, or digging themselves into a niche if unrealistic scenarios then they are practicing their bad habits.

Training is another thing. If one goes to lessons and gets formal training to learn how to better operate his/her weapon, become more consistent, aware, confident, etc... then they are getting better.


Too much practice? Yes... There is such a thing. People have to un-learn bad habits all the time.

Too much training? Nope


Thats how I look at it.

-Dave

[Glenn Dee]

I believe there is no such thing as too much practice. Who is to say if your doing something wrong? If a person consistantly put all his shots within a paper plate sized target while holding his gun ghetto style... I say More power to him.

While practice does usually make perfect... It also strengthens familiarity with the firearm, and reinforces muscle memory if nothing else.

I strongly believe that If something works for you... It's right for you.

I wish I had the time, and ammo to hit the range every day...


Glenn D.

[KChen986]

I respectfully disagree. Fundamentals are fundamentals regardless of whether you're moving and shooting, doing Mission: Impossible type dives or shooting on a square range.

IMHO, practicing good fundamentals at a square range and practicing reloads, tac reloads etc. (stuff that can also be done at home) can't hurt--so long as you practice sound techniques.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Lavid2002

Too much practice? Yes... There is such a thing. People have to un-learn bad habits all the time.

Too much training? Nope

That's your answer, right there.

I've always hated that saying "Practice makes perfect."

It's a downright lie. Practice makes HABIT. If you practice being bad at something then you're going to get very good at being very bad.

Training (proper) is learning to do the RIGHT things.

You can not over-practice doing things right.

[booker_t]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. -Tim Notke

Sweat more, bleed less.

[sakeneko]

What VHinch, David, and Pete the Pizza Killer ;P said. If you learn and practice doing things right, there's no such thing as too much of that. If you learn and practice doing things wrong, *any* time spent is time not just wasted, but spent learning things that you will have to spend more time to unlearn later. So, depending on what the poster on the OP's other forum meant, he might have been very wrong or very right. Til we ask him, we don't know. :-)

[stephen426]

Stationary target practice at an indoor range is useful, but it does not translate into real world scenarios very well. That said, someone who practices a lot more in an indoor range will be far better off than someone who does not practice at all! You can imrove upon your accuracy, develop good muscle memory, work on sight picture and trigger control, as well as a bunch of other practical skills.

I see stationary target practice in a controlled environment as a good foundation or a basic building block of good marksmanship. To be more proficient in a "poop hits the fan scenario", it would be beneficial to work on point shooting and shooting while moving. I think shooting sports such as PPC or IDPA are great at developing those skills you can't practice at most indoor ranges. I believe there is also much that can be transfered from air soft and paint ball. This requires you to think about cover/concealment as well as hitting your target.

[kraigwy]

Too much Range time is along the lines of:

Too Much Money
Too many guns
Too much sex
Too much fried chicken.

In other words, there is no such thing as too much range time.

I shoot dern near every day, but I have my own range outside my back door up to 300 (and soon to be 400) yards.

[zukiphile]

In other words, there is no such thing as too much range time.

I concur.

The thread seems to have wandered to the topic of whether one's practice is good practice. According to that line of reasoning though, even a little bad practice too much.

As to the original point, the idea that weekly practice is excessive deserves ridicule.

[CWPinSC]

Skaters practice the figures and simple, basic maneuvers. These are the things a trip lutz is built on.

Soldiers practice close order so, when their commanding officer gives an order in combat, it's instantly obeyed.

Martial arts experts practice their fundamental moves in regimented routines so their real stuff is automatic.

We practice grip, sighting, shooting to POA, and shot placement under ideal conditions so, when it's show time, basic, ingrained motor skills come into play and we don't even have to think about what we're doing. Take the conscious mind out of the drawing, aiming, and firing equation and allow the sub conscious to take over, and you decrease your reaction time by about a half second.

[Old Grump]

Another guy responded that he thought that was too much practice time, pointing out that conditions at the range (eyes and ears, stationary targets, good climate conditions, etc.) are far different from what one might experience in an emergency (e.g. waking up in the middle of the night, loading groceries into one's car, walking in the rain to a parking lot).

I wonder if the poster who made that silly statement volunteered to be the goat and give our shooter some real life practice.

Conditions may be different in the real world but familiarity with the weapon of choice because of long hours on the range will pay dividends. Especially if he is practicing and not like VHinch said, just doing magazine dumps.

[Onward Allusion]

Nope - can't have too much practice. Form is overrated. It's the end-game that matters.

Sure, you might shoot with your weak hand while your strong hand holds your elbow (I'm trying to be sarcastic) but you hit 10x every time it doesn't matter. If you hit 10x every time while standing on your head it doesn't matter what your form is. If you hit 10x on a target moving sideways then toward you every time while you flinch it doesn't matter.

Taking a lesson from my archery instructor - "you can shoot right handed and have a dominant left eye, it doesn't matter as long as you hit your target and have good groups. You may look like a fool but no one is gonna laugh when you hit the inner 10 ring from 30 meters."

Van55
Too much range practice???
On another bulletin board not dedicated to firearms, I guy posted that he goes to the range to practice at least once a week.

Another guy responded that he thought that was too much practice time, pointing out that conditions at the range (eyes and ears, stationary targets, good climate conditions, etc.) are far different from what one might experience in an emergency (e.g. waking up in the middle of the night, loading groceries into one's car, walking in the rain to a parking lot).

My own view is that one can get some very helpful practice for emergency needs at the range -- shooting center of mass without sighting, learning one's weapon(s), instinctively clicking off the safety when raising the gun to shoot.

Is there such a thing as too much range practice? What range drills are there that are likely to improve one's performance in a real life situation?

[Hook686]

'Right' for you Petza might not be 'Right' for me.

Practicing speed strip, moonclip, or speedloader reloads at the range is not a bad idea, nor would be practicing trigger squeeze while shooting holes in targets. I find point shooting practice at a range not a waste of time, nor shooting from different positions, including weak hand.

'Training' is not a single scripted scenario. Different strokes for different folks applies in shooting firearms also.

Actually I think practice makes permanent, rather than perfect.

[Nnobby45]

Can't get too much range time, but you can forget that there are other types of more realistic training. It also depends on what you practice on the range. I've seen, on many occassions, shooters "practicing for SD" by doing what amounts to nothing more than target shooting--I'm sure we all have.

If you want to know what happens when people with lots of "range time", as well as those with lots of "advanced training" actually get involved in force on force realistic situation training, then check out John Farnum's quips. He both teaches and participates in such events. You can also check out Gabe Suarez.

Here's but a sample of Farnum's quips on the subject.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24May10.html

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Hook686

'Right' for you Petza might not be 'Right' for me.

Practicing speed strip, moonclip, or speedloader reloads at the range is not a bad idea, nor would be practicing trigger squeeze while shooting holes in targets. I find point shooting practice at a range not a waste of time, nor shooting from different positions, including weak hand.

'Training' is not a single scripted scenario. Different strokes for different folks applies in shooting firearms also.

Ah, but practicing flinching, jerking the trigger and riding the slide IS a waste of time and ammo, and could get you killed when your shots matter.

THAT'S the problem. It's not your technique versus my technique, if they both work for us respectively, it's practicing bad things versus practicing good things.

There's no way of knowing, without seeing the shooter, if someone is practicing good or bad things. If you practice doing the wrong things then you might be better off not practicing at all.

This is particularly evident in archery. I've seen guys that get worse and worse and worse the more they shoot. They take a couple of weeks off, or only shoot a couple of times a year, and they're fine. It's "target panic". We almost all have it to some degree, it effects us all slightly differently and it's THE reason why 99% (or more) of all the best shooters in the world shoot using some form of "Back Tension".

There are similar, and potentially much more catastrophic, problems when practicing bad behaviors or techniques with a handgun. Missing an X-Ring at 60 yards will lose you the tournament. Missing the Bad Guy at 8 feet will cost you your life.

Never assume that shooting more will make you a better shot.

[BlueTrain]

I would say the only bad thing might be shooting more than your standard load. That is, shooting ten magazines full all at once when you normally only have three at your disposal. Another thing is that you might develop either a bad flinch or a bad arm is you were shooting long strings of heavy loads, particularly with a revolver or an especially lightweight automatic, like a lightweight Officer's ACP. Besides, it's expensive, even if you reload.

That's an easy complaint to make, I realize, especially if you can only make it out to the range once every week or two. But on the other hand, while practice is a good thing, one ought not imagine that your skill level drops off to nothing if you don't do a lot of shooting. Otherwise most police officers would be considered unqualified to carry a firearm (but let's not talk about that).

Then, too, there are different skill levels of shooting, and for that matter, the skill level of your shooting is only one part of coming out alive in a gunfight. One can be thoroughly familiar with your handgun, yet be a middling pistol shot for several reasons, such as poor eyesight or a poor physical condition. I guess you could say that being a good pistol shot and a good gunfighter aren't always the same thing.

[grubbylabs]

Sorry kraigwy, I have to stop you right there on the chicken thing:barf: I lived in South Carolina for two years and I had so much Hardies fried chicken I can barely look at fried chicken now, and it has been more than 10 years:barf:.

[Cool_Hand]

my high school wrestling coach grilled into us, Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.

Californication, that's funny you said that, my wrestling coach back in highschool used to say the same thing. Only it didnt really mean much to me when we just came back from a 7 mile run only to just start a 2 hour practice

[Hook686]

Peetzakilla wrtote:

Never assume that shooting more will make you a better shot.

Right I think you are Peetza. Assumtions are unnecessary though. If I'm putting 50 shots into a desert paper plate at 25 yards, then I am not concerned that my 'Technique' is approved by anuone else. I am getting the results I want. I am a disabled old man and as I said, different strokes, for different folks. I seriously doubt I could do it, 'Your way', in any aspect of 'Technique'. I am slow to draw, slow to present, cannot backup, or move laterally with any speed, or agility. So I am dead meat, except where patient accurate fire will apply.

[BlueTrain]

Still a good topic. Anyone remember what Elmer Keith had to say? Lots!

First of all, Elmer Keith would not have had much to say about lots of training, I think. While he certainly had some instruction and it was entertaining to read, he would have had a higher opinion of developing your own way of doing things if it gave the desired results. So did a few other people, which can be surprising. But Keith still had a rigorous side.

Assuming this thread was about the combat use of handguns, Keith believed you needed to achieve a relatively high standard of marksmanship in the old NRA bullseye style before you should even begin to think of combat with a handgun. Now, that's rigorous. Most people would miss the mark. Others with rather more combat experience, though not necessarily police experience, had no illusions about the reality of those expectations. Their approach was entirely different, as were their requirements. The experiences of Jeff Cooper, on the other hand, were different still and his theories about combat handgun use were shaped by both actual combat and competitive handgun use but of a completely different sort than Keith indulged in. It is interesting how it turned out but I'm not sure if it really answers the question about whether or not one can practice too much.

But Keith, Cooper, Jordan and Fairbairn are all gone and we're free to do what pleases us now, I guess.

[Don P]

As stated before practice with GOOD fundamentals is a must. Shooting is a perishable skill so in my opinion never too much range time.

[BlueTrain]

Sometimes your efforts to improve your shooting lead you down a strange path. You all know how some competitive shooting sports or activities can sometimes result in a kind of "gaming" of the activitiy in which gadgets and highly modified handguns are used to good effect. I mentioned how some believed you had to be a good bullseye target shot before you should even think about combat handgunnery. That may be all well and good but eventually it resulted in what were basically target revolvers being used by (some) policemen. The S&W K-38 Masterpiece, later also called the Model 14, is the best example. Some had "target" hammer and "target" trigger and if it didn't, people added trigger shoes. Bull barrels were a fad for a while. There was even a progressive school of thought that recommended that the revolver be manually cocked and fired single action because that gave much better accuracy, so the theory went. You could even buy a single action K-38 for a while. After all, that's what the good target shots used. And of course it had a six inch barrel that you carried in a swivel holster.

Obviously, times change. The thinking in the 1950s was also that you just couldn't beat a good revolver. If nothing else, that suggests that not all revolvers were good. But that was then. This is now. All revolvers are good (aren't they?).

I suppose more practice is better if you have the time and money. It's fine if someone else is paying for it. During WWII some operatives were sent overseas and parachuted into enemy territory with about four hours weapon training. That's probably not enough but I suppose sometimes other things are more important.

So, just how much skill do you imagine you lose in a week's time?

[Don P]

It's fine if someone else is paying for it.

That's what they make 22lr for. Most can afford 100 rounds of 22lr per week for practice.

So, just how much skill do you imagine you lose in a week's time?

None, so back to my point what will it hurt to practice more often.
Again its all a matter of personal opinion.