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Old April 18, 2013, 11:37 AM   #1
Brutus
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revival of the puny 9

My first center fire pistol was a Browning High Power, shot it for a couple of years and then some really evil person allowed me to try his Gold Cup. Sold the high power immediately (big mistake) and bought a series 70 Gold cup new for $350.00(eat your hearts out). Never looked back. My thinking at the time mostly revolved around accuracy, as bulls eye was my favorite sport, in addition I always felt that in a self defense situation, if I didn't get the job done with the first two or three shots I wouldn't need ten more so bigger bullets are better.
Fast forward thirty five years, my philosophy hasn't changed but I've gotten lazy in my old age and don't have the time to do all that reloading. Started to entertain the thought of revisiting the 9mm because ammo was so cheap (another plan gone astray). Now I always considered the nine to be somewhat of an anemic .38 special with poorer bullet choices, so I began scouting for a belly gun. First purchase was a Kahr P9. Great little gun, 100% reliable and acceptably accurate for its small size. The biggest eye opener was the advancement in 9mm ammunition.
Now I'm smitten by the 9mm bug and a target pistol seems to be a much needed and logical requirement. Being a 3rd generation Bohunk I started to admire the offerings of CZ (figured I'd send my hard earned bucks back to the father land). Purchased an 85 combat, love the gun, hate the fact I go thru a box of ammo in 3 magazines (It's the cheap ammo thing again). Now the gun control advocates are in full swing and I figure I better jump on the high cap band wagon while I still can. Since the CZ feels so much like my old HP I decided to stick with them, so my next purchase was a CZ PCR. This has become my current favorite. It's as accurate as the 85 combat, light with the alloy frame, svelte for easy conceal ability and I just like it a lot.
Anyway that's the story my re acquaintance with the 9mm so why do I still grab a government model whenever I feel the need?
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:31 PM   #2
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Yes, some 9mm ammo (includes Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger-T, and apparently the new Critical Duty from Hornady) really makes the round hard to ignore.

The .45ACP is my favorite caliber to handload and shoot, but all of my defensive handguns are in 9mm. More capacity in the magazine, less recoil and if you use the right ammo, it doesn't give much up to the .40SW or the .45ACP as far as terminal ballistics.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:37 PM   #3
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tjhands stole my comment.

Well said sir.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:42 PM   #4
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I've always found it somewhat amazing that we Americans still cling to the "cowboy" mentality and the love of .45 calibre handguns when the entire remainder of the world converted to the 9MM parabellum a full century ago.

Out military and law enforcement leaders have finally accepted world wide standartds, but many of us refuse to let go of the old black powder era and it's love of large, slow moving projectiles. And in all honesty, I must admit that I too feel an attraction to that mentality.

This is curious indeed.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:00 PM   #5
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I am often torn between 9 & 45, and that is why I have both.

But I must say, if 9mm has improved over the years due to technology in HPs, then I have to believe that applies to 45 as well.

And for certain, if limited to FMJ, 45 is no doubt the better IMO.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:35 PM   #6
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I like cartridges that are in guns proportional to their power. A 9mm Beretta 92 - which is bigger than a 1911 - makes no sense, but a compact, single stack 9mm would be a great carry gun. Give me a puny gun for a puny cartridge, and I'm happy. At the same time, a 9mm 1911 doesn't make much sense, either, since it's big enough to hold larger and more powerful cartridges.
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:22 PM   #7
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I'm reminded of what someone told me once about the .357.
"With that 38 you gotta worry if the JHP will expand, with a 45 you don't care".
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:40 PM   #8
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Many years ago I learned that bullet design is extremely important ! I now carry and hunt only with premium bullets !
Premium bullets have brought the 9 into the acceptable level for me for SD. My tests were live animals like 'chucks - no formulas , no theory.
Comparing 9 vs 45 fmj the difference is obvious , 45 wins every time
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:44 PM   #9
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I'm reminded of what someone told me once about the .357.
"With that 38 you gotta worry if the JHP will expand, with a 45 you don't care".
I think you do. When a 9mm can expand to .6-.7" pretty reliably, you want that 45ACP to expand too. You're talking about roughly a .09" difference between the two base diameter. Now I'm not claiming the 9mm is more powerful than the 45ACP, but the idea that someone it doesn't matter if a 45ACP expands is a little far-fetched.
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:48 PM   #10
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can expand
That's the key. 9mm CAN expand, but .45 doesn't shrink.
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:51 PM   #11
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As a Life Member of SNM-Sons of Neanderthal Man-I always prefer steel frames, firing even hot 9MMs out of one is like firing 38 Specials out of a N-frame S&W.
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Old April 18, 2013, 03:02 PM   #12
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Also to point about shrinkage. A 45 at 230gr. is almost twice the weight of a 124gr 9mm.
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Old April 18, 2013, 03:30 PM   #13
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lol..here we go again. " 9mm vs .45 "

Shot. Placement. Is. King.

And 9mm is JUST as adequate as .45 no less.
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Old April 18, 2013, 03:51 PM   #14
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Didn't mean to start a 9mm vs. 45 thread. I like all of them and think they all have a purpose. Can't see shooting a 45 in the same size package as the kahr p9, it can be done but I doubt as effectively. Conversely I can honestly say I've never shot a 9mm that was as accurate as a 1911. I will always adhere to the bigger bullet philosophy but that's a personal choice that is not always practical in a carry situation.
They are all tools and each has it's place.
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Old April 18, 2013, 04:09 PM   #15
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9mm vs. .45 threads are fun. What else is there to do on a Thursday afternoon?
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Old April 18, 2013, 04:27 PM   #16
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What else is there to do on a Thursday afternoon?
Go to the range?
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Old April 18, 2013, 04:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
What else is there to do on a Thursday afternoon?
Go to the range?
I think I like this guy.
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Old April 18, 2013, 04:56 PM   #18
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I like him to, seems to have his priorities in the right order.
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Old April 18, 2013, 09:18 PM   #19
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Well, that seems like a good stopping place. I'm all for a good debate, even a "9mm vs. 45" or a "Glock or 1911" debate. However, let's keep the bickering out of it, OK? I've cleaned out a couple of posts, and I'd just as soon avoid closing this thread if I can.
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Old April 18, 2013, 10:21 PM   #20
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The PCR is a good choice. Probably the best carry gun made by CZ. Alloy frame, superb accuracy, great capacity, very reliable. Keep an eye on the recoil spring and the extractor spring once your round count starts getting in the 8-10,000 range. You'll know when the extractor spring is shot because it will start to eject funny. If you shoot in a 'stall' type of range, your shirt will start to fill with hot brass.
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Old April 18, 2013, 10:31 PM   #21
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ya know ive always been a 1911 guy. ive owned a couple of different 9mm's: a Hi-Power Clone and a Ruger P85MKII. the only one that is still in the safe or dosnt have its proverbial head on the chopping block is the 1911. im still looking for that 9mm that is accurate enough for my taste. in the meantime im looking for more inexpensive ways to fill up some 45 cases....and empty them agian
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Old April 18, 2013, 10:50 PM   #22
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bullets are bullets are bullets.

pick one you like and go with it. You'll never know how many you'll need until you need em.

Then just engage until the threat has stopped or you've reached safety.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:20 PM   #23
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If you're talking solely about ballistic quality and not capacity, follow-up capability, recoil, ability to conceal, or weight, the difference is extremely small.

Basically, the only way to insure damage to tissue using handgun calibers is through leaving a permanent cavity. Temporary cavities, kinetic energy, and the fabled "stopping power" do not insure more reliable incapacitation of your target, which is the ultimate goal of firing your weapon in defense. Rifle calibers are a little different, but I'll stay away from that for the purposes of this thread.

Given that information, as long as you are able to penetrate at least 12 inches into soft tissue, your chosen caliber is fine for self-defense. The average male has 180,000 square millimeters of surface area on their body. If you divide that in half to reasonably account for what you would be able to hit if a man was facing you, a 9mm round,without accounting for expansion, only accounts for 0.01% of surface area to the human body and 0.07% tissue damage if hit in the center of mass.

A .45 caliber round is about 3.5mm larger than a 9mm, so it will account for 0.0138% of surface area, and about 0.0966% tissue damage if hit in the center of mass.

The amount of tissue destroyed/damaged is pretty tiny in comparison to your entire body, which is why accuracy is the most important thing. That being said, statistically, a larger bullet will do more damage and give you a 38% wider buffer for error if your shot is off of a vital organ by an infinitesimal mark.

So, as long as the 12 inch penetration is there, you have a solid defense caliber. Wider permanent cavities do more damage, therefore bigger bullets are better.

Once you add in the non-ballistic factors, it is merely a matter of opinion and preference.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:58 PM   #24
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Now I always considered the nine to be somewhat of an anemic .38 special with poorer bullet choices
Not really close. Most people would rank the 45 and 357 magnum as the top performers with the largest number of incidents to back up their claims. For some reason the 9mm gets little respect from some, but when you look at real numbers it looks pretty good.

A 125 gr 357 is considered by many as the gold standard of stopping loads. Advertised velocity is usually around 1500 fps from 8" barrels. But most cops and non-LEO rarely carry guns with over 4" of barrel. Real world speeds are closer to 1300 fps, but it still earned a reputation for working.

My 4" G-19 chronographs 1250 fps with the same bullet weight, yet so many seem to think that 50 fps means a 9mm is going to bounce off instead of getting the job done.

Not picking a side in the 9mm vs 45 vs 357 debate. I own, like and use them all
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Old April 19, 2013, 07:34 AM   #25
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The CZ-75D PCR is my regular carry gun. I've had it for 13 years, and never a hiccup. What others have said is true. It is one of CZ's best offerings, as it can do it all. Accurate range work, home defense and concealed carry. I even mount my CZ Kadet Kit, .22LR conversion unit on it sometimes, and it works great.
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