The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 27, 2001, 04:11 PM   #1
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
Whats the proper way to take a loaded gun from someone?

Should you grab someone's wrist before you actually put your hands on the gun? If I put my hands on a gun and someone pulled the trigger, I doubt I would be able to handle being burned from the firing of the gun, without pulling back. Would you try and force someone to fire off all the rounds in the gun while you wrestled over it?

I heard (don't know how accurate it is) that during the Vietnam War the North Vietnamese taught their soldiers to push back on the 1911 slide and jam the gun and then stab the GI with a knife.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 04:16 PM   #2
Goet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2000
Location: North Ogden, UT
Posts: 953
Ask them to unload it first. Preferably pointed in a safe direction.




On the same topic, what is the deal with the story of Berettas being slide stripped by an attacker?

What about grabbing a revolver thus preventing the cylinder from rotating?
__________________
Bomb Canada!
Goet is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 04:24 PM   #3
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
I own a Beretta 92FS and if somone stuck one to my head and looked the other way I would attempt to push the button in with my thumb and pull the switch down. The gun would then be in two pieces. Its possible, but its extrememly unlikely that someone would be able to do that, especially when the BG has his finger on the trigger.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 04:45 PM   #4
Azrael256
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2001
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 547
IIRC, the book Fighting Fit says that one should assume that the gun will be fired. The recommended course of action with an automatic is to grab the slide and attempt to point the gun in a safe direction. When it does discharge, it should jam up nicely if you're holding the slide. With revolvers, the same theory applies. Grab the cylinder and try to stop the next round firing. The book does say, however, that you WILL be burned from doing so. The idea is not to totally incapacitate the BG with some cool ninja move, but to create a moment of confusion while he tries to figure out what's wrong with his gun. Exploit this moment and acquaint his family jewels with your knee (repeatedly) and THEN you can do your cool ninja move to break his neck in 36 places.
Azrael256 is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 05:10 PM   #5
Mort
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 1998
Posts: 479
There are a lot of ways.

Some of the basic elements I learned are:

1) Get off line and grab, maintaining adhesion.
2) Bring the weapon into a position of greater control,
3) Strip.

Getting off line means getting out of the path of the muzzle. If the muzzle is actually touching your body, this means angling your body and moving towards the attacker, so that the muzzle will slide off of you. The direction to turn depends on the attacker's position: front, back or side.

Simultaneously, grab the weapon. Keep it close to your body, but pointed away; this is the aforementioned "adhesion". The idea here is to gain more control over the weapon than the attacker by moving the gun into a retention position. If you both have the gun at arms' length, it's a wrestling match. If he's the only one at arms' length, you have a leverage advantage.

Finally, strip the weapon from his grasp. There are a million ways to do this; most involve turning the gun outward, away from his palm and gripping fingers. Also, wrist locks can be applied at this point, but you're going for a quick break rather than compliance.

At every step, distract and harass as necessary. When you close, give him something to think about: an eye jab, perhaps, or even a good punch to the face as you grab the weapon.

The nice thing about this system is that, with tweaking and practice, it works with handguns and long guns.

Disarms that rely on the function of the weapon make me nervous. The cylinder grab on a revolver works, if the revolver isn't cocked. But all the attacker has to do is get your fingers off the cylinder.

Pushing the slide back to jam the weapon is even riskier, because you are pushing in the same direction that the attacker will try to pull to free the weapon. If he pulls quickly enough (and he probably will, as that is a reflexive action), the slide will go back into battery and he'll still be on target.

As for the old Beretta trick, this is a very fine motor skill. I would only feel comfortable about it if I practiced it hundreds of times, at full speed, with regularity. And then it only works on Beretta 92s. Not much of a payoff.

For any technique, practice is the key. Get some friends together. Use dummy guns and eye protection, and just try to figure out what works and what doesn't. Encourage the guy holding the gun to think up scenarios--different grips, ranges, stances, on the ground with him straddling you, etc. Then, for a real test of how you're doing, toss the dummy gun on the ground and have two guys go for it. The one who gets it first is the attacker, and the one who doesn't is trying to disarm. Hee hee! Try to find that takedown catch now. This introduces adrenaline into the equation.
Mort is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 05:44 PM   #6
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
The Beretta 92 trick may be an urban legend. I don't think that there has ever been a documented instance of this happening to an officer or armed citizen on the street. I did see it demonstrated very effectively at the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar way back in '93. IIRC, Beretta did market a modification that was supposed to prevent that from happening. I've got the part number somewhere in my notes from that class. (yes I keep everything like that...drives the womenfolk crazy ) I think they only sold it to peace officers.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 06:19 PM   #7
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 16,002
Quote:
Whats the proper way to take a loaded gun from someone?
By saying "DROP THE GUN OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!"
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 06:33 PM   #8
Navy joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2001
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 1,804
Pick it up off the concrete after you ventilate him of course!

Actually, I would want to grab and move off line, preferably wrist and gun. If I can do this and get a knife deployed, its over once I'm beside and behind him holding his gun hand. Poke anything that presents itself.
__________________
FY47012
Navy joe is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 11:08 PM   #9
madgrad
Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2001
Posts: 58
GUN DISARMS

If your intrested in Gun Disarms that are simple and work. Go to www.kravmaga.com, they sell the tapes of it, or check out a school near you. Learning them does not make you Superman, but if you need to disarm somebody before you die. They're the best all around, alot simpiler than the Koga method I trained in.
madgrad is offline  
Old December 27, 2001, 11:56 PM   #10
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
I can't get access to that website!!!!!!!!


The reason I was wondering about this was a few weeks ago I got together with a few NJ TFL members and one of them was shooting a .357. I was standing 6ft to their right when they shot it and the blast from the "cylinder" (I think because I was standing to the side) felt like somebody stabbed my hand with a hot needle. If I was to have my hands any closer to that gun when it went off I wonder how many fingers I would have.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 28, 2001, 10:00 AM   #11
CMichael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 1,516
If you are in that position you are already in deep doo doo.

I would try to get close and sidestep.

The more distance you have the greater advantage the person with the gun is.

It's really important to get inside. Then I may gouge the eye or the throat. The idea is to cause him enough pain that he can't think about shooting you.

Michael
CMichael is offline  
Old December 28, 2001, 08:42 PM   #12
Quartus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,823
Quote:
If I was to have my hands any closer to that gun when it went off I wonder how many fingers I would have.

The side blast from a revolver will do some real damage to your skin if you have your hand wrapped aroound the gun when it is discharged.

OTOH, it's probably not as bad as a muzzle blast. At your chest. Preceded by a .357 slug moving along at a brisk pace.
__________________
.

Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.
Quartus is offline  
Old December 29, 2001, 01:31 PM   #13
Lennyjoe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2001
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 1,150
Just read a pretty decent article in the Feb 2002 Combat Handguns mag about that same topic.

1. Clear your body (from the line of fire of the gun by either moving the gun or your body)

2. Trap the gun (by blocking or deflecting the attackers gun hand and holding onto it.) You should attempt to grab the wrist or the thumb area that holds the gun.

3. Remove the gun (from the assailant's grab) This is done by rotating the hand palm upward and putting your free hand just under the gun at the trigger guard. With the free hand under the gun pull the gun out of the hand while prying the thumb free.

4. Neutralize the assailant.

All of this of course while trying to keep the gun pointed away from you. The article goes into more detail of course than I can write without filling the whole screen.
__________________
If you see a Military man or a Vet, stop him and say "Thanks".
Lennyjoe is offline  
Old December 30, 2001, 09:09 AM   #14
Don Gwinn
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 9, 2000
Location: Virden, IL
Posts: 5,917
I'm with Tamara and Joe. Once you shoot him enough times, you should be able to kick it out of his hand on the floor.

I was taught that the most important thing was to be moving off the line of the muzzle and moving or controlling the gun at the same instant. I was also taught that that is the hardest part to learn. I'm no kind of expert or even a serious student, but this makes sense to me. When I do practice, I concentrate on doing both totally simultaneously and with no warning or setup.
__________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner
Don Gwinn is offline  
Old December 30, 2001, 11:17 AM   #15
C.R.Sam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: Dewey, AZ
Posts: 12,858
Takes some serious training and mental conditioning to have a chance of pulling it of.

The decision should be an informed one. There are questions that should be answered in the instant before making the move. You know that the other person isn't totally committed to shooting you or they would have already done so. Is there another bad guy and where? etc.

Training should be with someone who has knowledge of the procedures as it is easy to get somebody hurt. A well executed strip is fast, violent......and if the weapon has a realistic trigger guard, the gunholder stands a good chance of loosing a finger. Both parties will probably get a lot of muzzle blast and powder in the eyes etc.

Taxpayers footed the bill for a fair amount of such training for me and my partner tried it in a for real situation. It worked for him and the bad guy suffered from aeriation of the brain.

Sam.......your brain is your primary weapon.
C.R.Sam is offline  
Old December 30, 2001, 11:25 PM   #16
HKP7PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 169
Grab the slide with your right hand and push to the left a foot or two. Then twist the pistol up backwards toward the shooter, and then tilt your wrist to the left and twist it out of their hand. I would really have to show you. If they choose to fire then you cannot really stop them, but if they wimp out, you have the gun. I would only do it if you were sure they are about to kill you.
HKP7PSP is offline  
Old December 31, 2001, 04:24 PM   #17
melglock
Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2001
Posts: 98
Don't know if this'll work...

Put my hands in the air, about head level, as if I was surrendering. Then sidestep out of the line of fire, grab the BG's gun hand with the left hand pulling it out away from the BG's body, holding it so the gun is pointed away from you, then hammer-strike him in the forearm with the right hand, aiming to break his radius or ulna. Needs to be done lightning quick to avoid being shot or counterattacked.

I'd only try something like this if I thought I was about to be shot.
melglock is offline  
Old January 1, 2002, 12:26 AM   #18
Carbon_15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2001
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 938
I love the fact that bad guys watch just as many action flicks as we do. The really beautiful part is that they use them as training films and thus think of firearms as contact weapons. ironicly, most also thing survival knives are great for throwing 20 yards into a victim and sticking him to a tree. Never underestimate the criminal mind.
Carbon_15 is offline  
Old January 2, 2002, 08:03 AM   #19
Kharn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,531
From his cold, dead hands?

Kharn
Kharn is offline  
Old January 2, 2002, 06:03 PM   #20
striderteen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2001
Location: Pasadena, California
Posts: 590
A friend of mine who's got 30 years on the LA County Sheriff's Department advised me to grab the cylinder on a revolver or the slide on an automatic, then twist the gun outwards so it'll fire away from me.

The next move is to pull my tac-folder and stick the BG with it.
striderteen is offline  
Old January 2, 2002, 06:08 PM   #21
HKP7PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 169
This is all fine, but we need to practice this stuff. I plan to take a weapons-retention class. They go over all this and you try it.
HKP7PSP is offline  
Old January 2, 2002, 07:45 PM   #22
trapshooter
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2002
Location: Missouri
Posts: 902
1. Locking up the cylinder on most revolvers prevents the action from operating, i.e., gun won't shoot if the hammer is not in full cock. Prevents DA firing. This works. I'm here because of this.

2. Same kind of situation re: semi-autos and the slide. If the slide is not in battery, weapon will not fire.

1 and 2 are true for the weapons I have tried them with, but that doesn't mean all weapons, as I certainly have not tested every type around. The slide trick most definitely works on Colt 1911. Cylinder trick works on Smith revolvers. If it doesn't work, what have you lost? If you have followed the other (good) techniques posted here, it gives you a chance, and it sure beats the alternative.

I may go check some others, just to see. Need I remind anyone that this test is best done on a weapon you have checked unloaded?
trapshooter is offline  
Old January 2, 2002, 08:42 PM   #23
fix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2001
Posts: 919
The first thing you need to do is accept the fact that you are probably going to take one. Step 2 (I don't buy into the ninja grab-sidestep simultaneously fantasy) is to get control of the muzzle by any means available (better to lose a hand than to miss the whole thing trying to pull off some Steven Seagal slide trick) and direct it away from your vitals. At that point, it's pretty simple...elbows, knees, and teeth. Alot depends on the positioning. If you're standing face to face...the sidestep actually might be the best choice (preferably towards his weak side). As he swings the muzzle, sidestep and then step into him with your left arm raised (assuming right handed attacker) and go for the throat with your right hand while trapping his shooting hand under your left arm. There are too many variables involved so the best advice is...train, train, train.
fix is offline  
Old January 3, 2002, 08:45 PM   #24
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
This is an incredibly stupid subject of conversation to be engaged in! I don't know about you cats, but I can't think of anything dumber than the idea of further provoking an incident with an armed assailant! Give him your stinkin' wallet, for the love of Pete!

That little rant aside, I think you should study Akido. This type of scenario is right up their alley. I took a lecture a few weeks ago in my Iaido class. It was given by an Akido sensei, and it was all about disarming a samurai's kitana using your bare hands. This could easily be fitted to work in a firearm confrontation.

The trick is, you have to grip the thumb of the assailant in the proper manner. Once the thumb is immobilized, the slightest twist of the wrist becomes dreadfully painful, and the assailant becomes your (female dog). Akido can teach you all about this.

Again, I must reiterate this very important point: If someone comes up to you and points a gun in your face, GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT! No money, no home, no physical comfort in this world is worth getting killed over.

Oh, and uh,
Kudos on the Trent Reznor quote.
Samurai is offline  
Old January 3, 2002, 09:01 PM   #25
HKP7PSP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 169
You know what? I am afraid of bees. I am afraid of them because I know they won't hesitate to sting me, even if it means their death. When robbers start to learn that they will be met with resistance from their victims, then they will be less likely to rob. Everyone should always fight back. You might be killed anyway if you start to comply.
HKP7PSP is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09130 seconds with 8 queries