Best guides in Africa...

Socrates · May 25, 2008, 01:38 AM

One of the posters at Accuratereloading.com is Ganyana, a PH, and working in wildlife conservation. His project is to take lions that have been orphaned, train them into a pride on a game preserve, and release them into the wild.

I can't help but say these big cats are my idea of the perfect African hunting partners...

Here's a rather sad commentary if you just release them into the wild, from Ganyana:

Quote:

Ah yes - rather sad end to Elsa's three cubs.

They were collared and free released into the non hunting area of Tuli Block in Botswana -right next to our tuli circle safari area... Garry larson could have predicted some of this...

One was shot by a farmer called in by the local council to deal with a lone lioness that was taking cattle in the tribal area adjacent to the tuli circle.

I shot a second one, following up on an attack on a cattle heard boy (about 10 years old) who had been mauled to death by a lion near the Botswana border. Must say the collar with name tag was a bit of a suprise. But I remembered that the bunny huggers Inc had sent a formal letter asking Zim Parks to suspend the hunting of lion in tuli circle as the three lion had been released near there.

I had kept lion on quota and sent a letter back to say they were free to buy the lion quota for Tuli and not shoot it... Got an offensive letter back charging I was not acting in the interests of conservation, and several others in a similar vein from various "activists"

Anyway, I sent the collar back with a bill for my milage (Even back then, Zim parks were broke and I didn't see why my section should have to carry the bill) and for the ammo used (2 rounds 9,3 which I had to pay out of my own pocket).

Their reply came as an official complaint about me through diplomatic channels. For which the Director gave me an increase in budget and approval to buy some 9,3 ammo on a government purchase order.

About a year later the last of the three was shot by a Botswana policeman (with a Webley revolver in .38 S&W no less) who was stalking a woman. Whether she was or just wanted an ear tickle is irelevant, the policeman acted bravely and in good faith.

The interesting feature of this sad story is that the three siblings did not stay together, nor did they join a wild pride. All hunted (and died) alone. This is one of the aspects we are looking at with our release programme- making sure that the lions released are already a stable pride able to fend for themselves.

Ganyana carries a .44 magnum, pistol, and 9.3 X 62 rifle. What caliber would you carry, considering you are hunting with lions?

Heres a link to a bunch of his writing. 'How not to hunt lions' is a very good read, and, the rabies lion stories are a bit scary as well.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...14/m/380108868

Firepower! · May 25, 2008, 02:05 AM

Great post.

I am wondering how did that policeman shot a lion with .38? How close was he? I thought Lions required a larger bore.

Socrates · May 25, 2008, 02:13 AM

Thank you.

At point blank range, a .38 with percise shot placement WILL kill. Somewhere on the net is a tape of a .38 in police hands, killing a tame lion who had decided to turn a trainer into a chew toy. Sadly, it didn't really kill completely, but, it incapacitated the lion.

One of Ganyana's observations is that percise shot placement, with big game animals, is far more important then caliber. He uses a 9.3 x 62 for pretty much everything, and with shot placement, it works on everything, including elephants...

If you read some of Ganyana's stories about shooting angry, or rabid lions, you get a whole new respect for the animals...

lt dan · May 25, 2008, 08:41 AM

i keep telling people shotplacement is everything. like i said in another thread, in botswana they cull elephant with 30-06 and even 308.

Socrates · May 25, 2008, 04:20 PM

I think it's really 'shot placement with it's twin, penetration."

The point this person makes in much of his writing is that in Africa, he was issued the 458 with poor bullets. Result was an angry elephant, that he eventually killed with a brain shot from K. Bell's favorite caliber, 7X57.

He also makes the case that the 375 is not as good as the 9.3 x62. Why? Both penetrate and exit on elephant brain shots, and, both will go near end to end on a buffalo. But, most hunters don't hunt with magnum length actions, and, in the press of things, tend to 'short stroke' the 375. He also argues the 9.3 does the same as the 375, game wise, with far less recoil, in a lighter rifle.

Neither will stop much of anything, unless the brain is hit, and, he points out you can nearly take the head off some animals, and, they don't know it right away.

.404 seems to be the ideal blend of stopping and recoil. When you go much over that, shots from awkward positions, like being charged by a pride of lions, become very difficult to recover from, or make an accurate second shot. Also, 458 win mags aren't much fun if you have to shoot prone...

Firepower! · May 25, 2008, 04:44 PM

I wish I could find 404 jeffery here in Pakistan.

Socrates,
The link in ur post is not working. May be problem is at my end I will try again.

Socrates · May 25, 2008, 06:34 PM

HMMM.
The forums at accuratereloading.com appear to be down.

Wait a bit, and try again later.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/

Try this link:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...rm/f/487100714

Weird. both links go to the same page...

Here's a link to one of the threads:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/766100768

Here's the other:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/843101868

Firepower! · May 26, 2008, 04:03 PM

Socrates, your post really placed things in prespective. Not only it was informative and interesting as I mentioned in the previous post, but it also solved a problem for me.

Recently, I have been shopping for big bore rifles and bought a 7mm Mag, and was about to buy a 30.06 and some others when it suddenly hit me today. I was sitting in the drawing room telling someone about the policeman who took out lion with 38. At that instance I realized that I need not spend money on rifles which I might not ever need or use, since I am originally an assualt rifle and handgun collector. I think even my 7x57 is well suited for anything. All I really need it to practice practice practice and practice to make sure I am dead on target with my shot placement. Then I can take out the biggest game possible. One head shot! I doubt anything will be walking after that!

Regards,

ps now I will try the link again

Socrates · May 26, 2008, 04:46 PM

HMMM.

You might want to read this:

http://accuratereloading.com/nick/Ga...Ganyana001.pdf

Remember, many places in Africa don't allow anything smaller then 9.3, or 375.

Firepower: K Bell was supposed to have killed about 10k elephants. How many do you think he missed, before he really figured the shot placement out?

I think the reason for the 9.3 minimum is this: People just don't get to shoot enough game to get the percise shot placement on game that is required.

Firepower! · May 29, 2008, 08:52 AM

Socrates you are right. But the problem these days is some what more complex than we think. Not only there is a caliber restriction but there is also a personal weapon restriction. Many of the African countries do not allow you to travel in with your own rifle. You must get one arranged by the guide.

My problem with that is that I am not used to their rifles nor calibers. It does not matter how much I practice with my 7x57 or 7mm mag., I will still be at disadvantage. And if I do get a 375HH or 9.3, they will be waste becuase not only they will eat up expensive ammo but also I wont be able to take them with me. I mean [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]! I say that because I was thinking about HH's 375HH, and they are expensive. Thus after spending so much money you still cant take the rifle with you, it just kills the fun. Shooting with your own rifle adds a personal touch and memories to it that makes the experience life long.

May 25, 2008, 08:41 AM	#4
lt dan Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2008 Location: south africa Posts: 328	shot placement i keep telling people shotplacement is everything. like i said in another thread, in botswana they cull elephant with 30-06 and even 308. __________________ If youth is wasted on the young, then Africa is wasted on the Africans

May 26, 2008, 04:46 PM	#9
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	HMMM. You might want to read this: http://accuratereloading.com/nick/Ga...Ganyana001.pdf Remember, many places in Africa don't allow anything smaller then 9.3, or 375. Firepower: K Bell was supposed to have killed about 10k elephants. How many do you think he missed, before he really figured the shot placement out? I think the reason for the 9.3 minimum is this: People just don't get to shoot enough game to get the percise shot placement on game that is required. Last edited by Socrates; May 26, 2008 at 06:15 PM.

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May 25, 2008, 02:05 AM	#2
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Great post. I am wondering how did that policeman shot a lion with .38? How close was he? I thought Lions required a larger bore.

May 25, 2008, 02:13 AM	#3
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Thank you. At point blank range, a .38 with percise shot placement WILL kill. Somewhere on the net is a tape of a .38 in police hands, killing a tame lion who had decided to turn a trainer into a chew toy. Sadly, it didn't really kill completely, but, it incapacitated the lion. One of Ganyana's observations is that percise shot placement, with big game animals, is far more important then caliber. He uses a 9.3 x 62 for pretty much everything, and with shot placement, it works on everything, including elephants... If you read some of Ganyana's stories about shooting angry, or rabid lions, you get a whole new respect for the animals...

May 25, 2008, 04:20 PM	#5
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	I think it's really 'shot placement with it's twin, penetration." The point this person makes in much of his writing is that in Africa, he was issued the 458 with poor bullets. Result was an angry elephant, that he eventually killed with a brain shot from K. Bell's favorite caliber, 7X57. He also makes the case that the 375 is not as good as the 9.3 x62. Why? Both penetrate and exit on elephant brain shots, and, both will go near end to end on a buffalo. But, most hunters don't hunt with magnum length actions, and, in the press of things, tend to 'short stroke' the 375. He also argues the 9.3 does the same as the 375, game wise, with far less recoil, in a lighter rifle. Neither will stop much of anything, unless the brain is hit, and, he points out you can nearly take the head off some animals, and, they don't know it right away. .404 seems to be the ideal blend of stopping and recoil. When you go much over that, shots from awkward positions, like being charged by a pride of lions, become very difficult to recover from, or make an accurate second shot. Also, 458 win mags aren't much fun if you have to shoot prone...

May 25, 2008, 04:44 PM	#6
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	I wish I could find 404 jeffery here in Pakistan. Socrates, The link in ur post is not working. May be problem is at my end I will try again.

May 25, 2008, 06:34 PM	#7
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	HMMM. The forums at accuratereloading.com appear to be down. Wait a bit, and try again later. http://www.accuratereloading.com/ Try this link: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...rm/f/487100714 Weird. both links go to the same page... Here's a link to one of the threads: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/766100768 Here's the other: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/843101868

May 26, 2008, 04:03 PM	#8
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Socrates, your post really placed things in prespective. Not only it was informative and interesting as I mentioned in the previous post, but it also solved a problem for me. Recently, I have been shopping for big bore rifles and bought a 7mm Mag, and was about to buy a 30.06 and some others when it suddenly hit me today. I was sitting in the drawing room telling someone about the policeman who took out lion with 38. At that instance I realized that I need not spend money on rifles which I might not ever need or use, since I am originally an assualt rifle and handgun collector. I think even my 7x57 is well suited for anything. All I really need it to practice practice practice and practice to make sure I am dead on target with my shot placement. Then I can take out the biggest game possible. One head shot! I doubt anything will be walking after that! Regards, ps now I will try the link again

May 29, 2008, 08:52 AM	#10
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Socrates you are right. But the problem these days is some what more complex than we think. Not only there is a caliber restriction but there is also a personal weapon restriction. Many of the African countries do not allow you to travel in with your own rifle. You must get one arranged by the guide. My problem with that is that I am not used to their rifles nor calibers. It does not matter how much I practice with my 7x57 or 7mm mag., I will still be at disadvantage. And if I do get a 375HH or 9.3, they will be waste becuase not only they will eat up expensive ammo but also I wont be able to take them with me. I mean [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]! I say that because I was thinking about HH's 375HH, and they are expensive. Thus after spending so much money you still cant take the rifle with you, it just kills the fun. Shooting with your own rifle adds a personal touch and memories to it that makes the experience life long.