granular fillers, which is best?

foolzrushn · August 24, 2015, 06:18 PM

Cream of Wheat (COW), cornmeal (cm), grits.....any others?

So which is best and why? Less filling?? Smells like tacos?? Moisture resistance? Compression resistance? Flamability? Barrel residue? Powder contamination? Clumping upon being fired?

I have not used a filler (except a wool felt wad), so I don't know. I do like tacos though.

Chowmif16 · August 25, 2015, 12:48 AM

I used to use cream of wheat because it was so cheap and compressible. Didn't really matter how much I used. I think I still have about 1/2 a can of it. I have abandoned it because it provides no lubrication and a felt wad serves the purpose of moving the ball forward in the chamber such that it is closer to the mouth of the cylinder.
I now make my own felt wads. I wish I could tell you the supplier and formula I use, but I am away from home and don't have the data. Plus, I made so many about two years ago, I might have to research it again if I kept poor records! Suffice it to say, it was roughly 1/2 to 2/3 beeswax plus maybe some Neatsfoot Oil and a bit of Murphy's Oil soap. The recipe I used was similar or exactly like lube recipes for long range black powder cartridge rifles.
Anyway, my point is that I like felt wads much better because they provide the same benefit, plus some lube. I don't put grease over the chamber mouth because I am convinced that most chainfires occur at the nipple end and the grease gets everywhere. Plus, if chainfires occur at the chamber mouth, my felt wads along with proper sized RBs should prevent that.

foolzrushn · August 25, 2015, 01:20 AM

I don't use lube over-the-ball either. I use felt wads from felt imported from India by the gal in Little Rock (have forgotten her name). I also got some of her mutton tallow.

I have thought about using filler because Rookie21 and some others think that ball spacing at the cylinder mouth is important, but don't know which to try. I don't think I would want to use multiple wads.

By the way, congrats on the Walker. Looks like you will be cutting some bigger wads soon.

BlackPowderBen · August 25, 2015, 07:09 AM

the company in little rock is called Durofelt isn't it?

Rookie21 · August 25, 2015, 07:45 AM

I like corn meal because it doesn't compress. The black powder will however and how much the powder is compressed is determined by how much filler (corn meal) you use. So rather than just dumping corn meal in until it looks good I measure it out. This way the compression of the charge should (in theory) be consistent.

Consistency breads accuracy but the gun, load, and loading procedure can only carry you so far. Your focus and your gun hand will matter most.

mehavey · August 25, 2015, 08:22 AM

Just remember, when blown back in your face, Yellow cornmeal tastes better than White.

More seriously -- and in reverse order of forgiveness -- cream of wheat is less compressible
than cornmeal, which in turn is less compressible than grits. Other than that, I haven't found
a whole lotta difference.

Rookie21 · August 25, 2015, 08:36 AM

Mehavey is right. And really if I were to act as critical as I may sound I should be using cream of wheat but my coach/mentor who shot competitively internationally always used corn meal. So I just figured it was easy to find, easy to buy, and works well enough. Compressed or not what you want is a consistent amount of powder, filler, and seating depth of the ball for every shot. That's all. No matter how you do it, do it the same way every time.

In terms of all the question points you had, there doesn't seem to be a problem with clumping, contamination, or anything else. Keep the cylinder up right and put in the powder first for every chamber you intend to fire. Then the filler and seat the ball. This way no filler accidentally makes its way into a chamber before the powder. The only odor I get is the black powder and burning of the grease. Not bad, but thick. Barrel residue? I swab the bore after every cylinder. After five shot the barrel is pretty dirty. Try one. Notice your out come and try another. Cornmeal and cream of wheat are the only two I see people commonly use.

foolzrushn · August 25, 2015, 11:07 AM

BP Ben- Yes Durofelt.

Since the reason for filler is ball spacing, just how critical is that? I have just begun to experiment, but so far have been unhappy with accuracy. Realizing many factors are responsible for that, just what over-all percentage would you guess ball spacing has upon accuracy?

Mehavey- So COW is hardest and grits the softest, with cm in between. I really hadn't given much thought to blowback. Does this happen through the cylinder face / forcing cone gap? I don't remember feeling much blowback from just Pyro, ball, wad and a dab of Gatofeo under the ball.

Any comments welcome.

Rookie21 · August 25, 2015, 02:43 PM

I like to think of it just the opposite. Instead of the filler acting as the determining factor for ball seat depth, the ball seat depth is a controlled fixed variable and how much filler needed is determined by how much powder is being used.

When utilizing a loading press (separate from the gun) I like to use a press that has a stop on it. It pushes the ball into the chamber but stops automatically when the ball is a few or several thousandths of an inch below the face of the cylinder. The stop insures that every ball is seated to the same depth every time. No deeper and no further out. I press the lever down on the press until it hits it's stop. So seat depth is a fixed variable.

I use 17 grains by weight of FFFg Goex. With the ball at the top this will only allow for so much corn meal. More or less powder means less or more corneal.

Having a press with a stop is a good idea. Because if the press doesn't have a stop, then you could (by using force of arm) press and compress each chamber differently even if you were careful. It wouldn't be the same.

And it probably goes with out saying - when the powder is compressed you've changed the pressures and velocities. So in theory 17 grains may work in my gun but 15 grains compressed with considerably more cornmeal may yield the same velocities and pressures. It's a balance game.

I prefer 17 grains, and enough corn meal to seat the ball with out compressing it too much but also having everything butted up against each other well enough so that there's no gaps and no way the corn meal could bounce around and mix with the powder.

maillemaker · August 26, 2015, 10:23 AM

I ran some tests doing load workups from the minimum viable amount of powder up to the maximum viable amount of powder, both without filler and with Cream of Wheat filler.

Minimum was determined by seating a ball on an empty chamber, then removing the nipple and filling the chamber with powder from the nipple end until the chamber was full of powder. This gave me the minimum uncompressed load.

Maximum was determined by the maximum amount of powder that can be put under a seated ball.

In one case I seated the ball down to the powder, in the other case I filled the chamber with Cream of Wheat so that the ball seated at the chamber mouth.

In no case was the no-filler more accurate than when the ball was seated at the chamber mouth.

So I believe seating the ball flush with the chamber mouth is conducive to accuracy.

Currently, I use Cream of Wheat as a filler. But my suspicion is that a wad would be better than a granular filler.

Granular filler is harder to consistently measure out. Also it has a risk of mixing with the powder and diluting the powder charge. In theory if the ball is firmly seated this should not be much of an issue but with a wad it is no issue ever.

So my next experiment will be to work up loads using sufficient wads to keep the ball seated at the mouth of the chamber.

I suspect ideally you would use a loading ram with a positive stop AND a charge + wad that bottoms out simultaneously with the ram.

Steve

August 24, 2015, 06:18 PM	#1
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	granular fillers, which is best? Cream of Wheat (COW), cornmeal (cm), grits.....any others? So which is best and why? Less filling?? Smells like tacos?? Moisture resistance? Compression resistance? Flamability? Barrel residue? Powder contamination? Clumping upon being fired? I have not used a filler (except a wool felt wad), so I don't know. I do like tacos though. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

August 25, 2015, 12:48 AM	#2
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Wads are better I think. I used to use cream of wheat because it was so cheap and compressible. Didn't really matter how much I used. I think I still have about 1/2 a can of it. I have abandoned it because it provides no lubrication and a felt wad serves the purpose of moving the ball forward in the chamber such that it is closer to the mouth of the cylinder. I now make my own felt wads. I wish I could tell you the supplier and formula I use, but I am away from home and don't have the data. Plus, I made so many about two years ago, I might have to research it again if I kept poor records! Suffice it to say, it was roughly 1/2 to 2/3 beeswax plus maybe some Neatsfoot Oil and a bit of Murphy's Oil soap. The recipe I used was similar or exactly like lube recipes for long range black powder cartridge rifles. Anyway, my point is that I like felt wads much better because they provide the same benefit, plus some lube. I don't put grease over the chamber mouth because I am convinced that most chainfires occur at the nipple end and the grease gets everywhere. Plus, if chainfires occur at the chamber mouth, my felt wads along with proper sized RBs should prevent that. __________________ Chowmi

August 25, 2015, 01:20 AM	#3
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	chowmif16 I don't use lube over-the-ball either. I use felt wads from felt imported from India by the gal in Little Rock (have forgotten her name). I also got some of her mutton tallow. I have thought about using filler because Rookie21 and some others think that ball spacing at the cylinder mouth is important, but don't know which to try. I don't think I would want to use multiple wads. By the way, congrats on the Walker. Looks like you will be cutting some bigger wads soon. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

August 25, 2015, 07:09 AM	#4
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	the company in little rock is called Durofelt isn't it? __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

August 25, 2015, 11:07 AM	#8
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	What about ball to cylinder face spacing? BP Ben- Yes Durofelt. Since the reason for filler is ball spacing, just how critical is that? I have just begun to experiment, but so far have been unhappy with accuracy. Realizing many factors are responsible for that, just what over-all percentage would you guess ball spacing has upon accuracy? Mehavey- So COW is hardest and grits the softest, with cm in between. I really hadn't given much thought to blowback. Does this happen through the cylinder face / forcing cone gap? I don't remember feeling much blowback from just Pyro, ball, wad and a dab of Gatofeo under the ball. Any comments welcome. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

August 25, 2015, 07:45 AM	#5
Rookie21 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2009 Posts: 212	I like corn meal because it doesn't compress. The black powder will however and how much the powder is compressed is determined by how much filler (corn meal) you use. So rather than just dumping corn meal in until it looks good I measure it out. This way the compression of the charge should (in theory) be consistent. Consistency breads accuracy but the gun, load, and loading procedure can only carry you so far. Your focus and your gun hand will matter most.

August 25, 2015, 08:22 AM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Just remember, when blown back in your face, Yellow cornmeal tastes better than White. More seriously -- and in reverse order of forgiveness -- cream of wheat is less compressible than cornmeal, which in turn is less compressible than grits. Other than that, I haven't found a whole lotta difference.

August 25, 2015, 08:36 AM	#7
Rookie21 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2009 Posts: 212	Mehavey is right. And really if I were to act as critical as I may sound I should be using cream of wheat but my coach/mentor who shot competitively internationally always used corn meal. So I just figured it was easy to find, easy to buy, and works well enough. Compressed or not what you want is a consistent amount of powder, filler, and seating depth of the ball for every shot. That's all. No matter how you do it, do it the same way every time. In terms of all the question points you had, there doesn't seem to be a problem with clumping, contamination, or anything else. Keep the cylinder up right and put in the powder first for every chamber you intend to fire. Then the filler and seat the ball. This way no filler accidentally makes its way into a chamber before the powder. The only odor I get is the black powder and burning of the grease. Not bad, but thick. Barrel residue? I swab the bore after every cylinder. After five shot the barrel is pretty dirty. Try one. Notice your out come and try another. Cornmeal and cream of wheat are the only two I see people commonly use.

August 25, 2015, 02:43 PM	#9
Rookie21 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2009 Posts: 212	I like to think of it just the opposite. Instead of the filler acting as the determining factor for ball seat depth, the ball seat depth is a controlled fixed variable and how much filler needed is determined by how much powder is being used. When utilizing a loading press (separate from the gun) I like to use a press that has a stop on it. It pushes the ball into the chamber but stops automatically when the ball is a few or several thousandths of an inch below the face of the cylinder. The stop insures that every ball is seated to the same depth every time. No deeper and no further out. I press the lever down on the press until it hits it's stop. So seat depth is a fixed variable. I use 17 grains by weight of FFFg Goex. With the ball at the top this will only allow for so much corn meal. More or less powder means less or more corneal. Having a press with a stop is a good idea. Because if the press doesn't have a stop, then you could (by using force of arm) press and compress each chamber differently even if you were careful. It wouldn't be the same. And it probably goes with out saying - when the powder is compressed you've changed the pressures and velocities. So in theory 17 grains may work in my gun but 15 grains compressed with considerably more cornmeal may yield the same velocities and pressures. It's a balance game. I prefer 17 grains, and enough corn meal to seat the ball with out compressing it too much but also having everything butted up against each other well enough so that there's no gaps and no way the corn meal could bounce around and mix with the powder.

August 26, 2015, 10:23 AM	#10
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I ran some tests doing load workups from the minimum viable amount of powder up to the maximum viable amount of powder, both without filler and with Cream of Wheat filler. Minimum was determined by seating a ball on an empty chamber, then removing the nipple and filling the chamber with powder from the nipple end until the chamber was full of powder. This gave me the minimum uncompressed load. Maximum was determined by the maximum amount of powder that can be put under a seated ball. In one case I seated the ball down to the powder, in the other case I filled the chamber with Cream of Wheat so that the ball seated at the chamber mouth. In no case was the no-filler more accurate than when the ball was seated at the chamber mouth. So I believe seating the ball flush with the chamber mouth is conducive to accuracy. Currently, I use Cream of Wheat as a filler. But my suspicion is that a wad would be better than a granular filler. Granular filler is harder to consistently measure out. Also it has a risk of mixing with the powder and diluting the powder charge. In theory if the ball is firmly seated this should not be much of an issue but with a wad it is no issue ever. So my next experiment will be to work up loads using sufficient wads to keep the ball seated at the mouth of the chamber. I suspect ideally you would use a loading ram with a positive stop AND a charge + wad that bottoms out simultaneously with the ram. Steve