What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a 4-6 cell Maglite/pistol?

[SmithWesson357]

I have a tac-light on my carry pistol because you never know if your in a situation by yourself when you need lite. It's much easier to control a situation with a free hand!

[JohnH1963]

I was going to update this thread with this last bit of information I found on an upgrade bulb for the maglite:

http://www.amazon.com/TerraLUX-TLE-3...1741068&sr=8-8

http://www.amazon.com/TerraLUX-TLE-3...741248&sr=1-13

I honestly feel that the Xenon upgrade bulb I have in the maglite now is by far enough blinding power. I can light up my neighbors house with the 6D Xenon bulb configuration from over 300 feet away. Even with my eyes shut, the light still hurts to shine in my eyes.

However, the above upgrade bulbs will make the maglite 3 times more powerful then the Xenon upgrade bulbs. That will be sure to blind someone.

[FM12]

Get a Mini Mag with the led bulb and be done with it.

[Kmar40]

If I were to carry a big maglite, it would be a C cell rather than a D cell. Much lighter and you can get a nice full grip on the thing. About the same amount of light but it perhaps burns a little less time.

Gotta tell you guys, if you haven't been in a fight before with this sort of gear (flashlight, baton, nightstick) you'll find that keeping a handle on the thing can be difficult. Once the fight begins, you'll probably have wet hands (sweat or blood). In baton training, you can always see the damage to the ceiling and walls where people have lost the handle and took a chunk out of the training room.

[AFSG]

When I first went on patrol we had rechargeable streamlights in some of our patrol cars that gave you anywhere from 10 -15 min of fair to yellowish light. After I had one stop working during a traffic stop I bought myself a 6 C cell maglight. A couple of years later I bought a Stinger which I still use.

We were taught in police academy to hold our light away from ourselves to avoid making ourselves targets. This made good sense back then. Today lights are mounted right on our pistols which I believe has become more tacticool than pratical. Strobes are the latest these days. I wonder where we will go from here. A pistol with a built in light? Nahhh

[booker_t]

I have one of those big 5C Maglites, they're sweet. I keep it under the bed in case the power goes out, or sometimes take it as a back up on a long road trip.

In the glovebox of my POV I have a Surefire 9P in a little holster with extra batteries. Upgraded lamp (220 lumen I believe) and crenelated cap. I usually have another one on me, or the Surefire G6 which is smaller and lighter but still incredibly bright, with crenelated cap for use as an impact device. I can't be carrying a huge Maglite around as I work in street clothes or a suit.

pictures, links or manuals on the techniques of handling a maglite and pistol

This should really be it's own thread I think.. and there's literally tons of information about this on the web. Nearly every LE Agency has it's own methods and FMs regarding the topic. Some basic styles:

1) Modify your normal 2-handed pistol grip (thumbs forward) so your 2nd hand holds the torch pointing forward

2) Either a modified saucer hold or the cross-handed hold

3) Hold the torch far away from your body, typically high and left (for a RH shooter) so the light source isn't at your head/center of mass, telling the scumbag where to shoot (this has gone in and out of favor with many agencies including FBI and DEA, although differences between Special Agents and HRTs/SRTs maybe significant even within an agency)

4) Google it and report your findings

[Tucker 1371]

I know this has nothing to do with flashlights but consider this,

either it hasn't been suggested or I haven't seen it here on TFL but why does no one ever suggest taking a pelvic shot? Just going by what I was taught in boot, a pelvic shot is supposed to almost always immediately immobilize a human being, a person shot through the pelvis shouldn't even be able to stand up.

If they had a gun then they could still return fire but they would have to 1) fight through the pain and 2) reacquire their target after hitting the deck. Advantage you. You don't have to worry about having a Godzilla Flashlight and the pelvis is a relatively large target, just put a controlled pair or three in the area of the target's hips and he probably won't be moving towards you anymore.

What you do after that depends on what he's armed with. If he has a firearm then you can continue to engage him, he's still a threat. If he had anything that would require him to get within arm's reach of you then I would cease fire and call the police and just keep an eye on the guy, maybe give him a verbal blasting about his poor decisions in life.

[booker_t]

taking a pelvic shot

There are no immediately vital organs in the pelvis. The objective in deploying lethal force (once justified) is to kill; not injure, incapacitate or maim.

If you prefer the latter, carry a Taser or your choice of OC/CS.

[Bill DeShivs]

Booker T,
You are very wrong.
In a civilian situation, the intent is to stop, not to kill.

[SigP6Carry]

I actually do that with a Maglite 3D, myself. I prefered the 3D for it's more manageable size. I feel that if an assailant broke into my apartment and attacked me and I couldn't stop him using either my 9mm or (stupidly) .22LR within the distance it would take for him to close the gap, the 3D would make a pretty good bludgeon without sacrificing a whole lot of manageability. In the event that I reach for my Mossberg (12g) as my HD choice, then I don't really have a flashlight that'll work with that, so the Mossberg is relegated to daylight duty in my home.

If you're confident with larger bludgeons or clubs, then a 4-6 cell may work out VERY well for you, I'd prefer one of the bigger ones myself, but I don't think I could wield it effectively.

Edit: you know what, I actually lied. I use a 2D, not a 3D.

[JohnH1963]

I keep my two big red 6 cell D Maglite with me by my bedside and have one for in my car. It gives me a better feeling knowing that I have both illumination and a secondary means of protection by my side when I am in a vulnerable state...i.e. sleeping or stopped by the side of the road.

I cant swing it very fast, but I believe the intent behind it is more to keep people back. Lets say the bad guy is a distance away. If I have the maglite out and swinging while retreating then he is going to think twice about advancing.

As for the ultimate tool of illumination, I would have to bow down to the Fenix light. Fenix has many flashlights, but the one I favor the most for my illumination needs is the LD10 which uses 1 AA cell. It has a little more power then a 3-Cell Maglite. It is easy to carry around in your pocket and uses AA cells which can be found just about anywhere. There are brighter versions with CR123A battery, but getting a hold of one of those batteries in an emergency might be challenging. AA batteries are just about everywhere and spares are usually found in any household drawer or portable appliance or at any store. There are tips you can buy for the lights which turn it into a lamp or a wand. You can also buy a setup so you can wear it on your head like a fireman or miner. You can submerse any of the Fenix lights in 5 feet of water for 24 hours and they still work. Dropping them wont break them. I saw 50 AA batteries on Amazon on-sale for 15 dollars and the AA batteries are so easy to carry around that you wont run out of power too soon.

Lets say you are on an airplane or in a hotel when there is some kind of emergency and the lights go completely out. The Fenix LD10 is the perfect thing to have in your pocket...

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewproduct.asp?id=117

[booker_t]

BilldeShivs:

Booker T,
You are very wrong.
In a civilian situation, the intent is to stop, not to kill.

You have made the assumption that I was addressing a civilian situation. If you would like to clarify or apply my statement with regards to a civilian situation, considering your local laws and regulations, then by all means present that information for the forum.

However, a generalization of "very wrong" regarding the objective of lethal force deployment being delivery of lethal terminal effects downrange and on-target is baseless, by definition.

V/r,
Booker

[Tucker 1371]

Booker T,

the Marine Corps didn't teach taking pelvic shots with the intent of just wounding someone. The idea is that if you have a target advancing towards you, you want to stop that immediately. If damaging his pelvis immobilizes the target then he has simultaneously become less of a threat and an easier target to deliver a round to the T-Box on. In a civilian self defense scenario the legal ramifications of delivering that follow up shot should be considered, i.e. whether or not the individual still has the ability to cause you harm.

Bottom line is, if it keeps the bad guy from hurting you then it works regardless of whether or not it kills him.

As for flashlights, if I were ever in this situation I'd rather have a small tactical type flashlight with a glass breaker on the end that I could bring down in a stabbing/hammer fist type motion. I think a rediculously long flashlight would just be a little unwieldy and difficult to employ. That's just speculation on my part though.

[Kmar40]

We were taught in police academy to hold our light away from ourselves to avoid making ourselves targets. This made good sense back then. Today lights are mounted right on our pistols which I believe has become more tacticool than pratical.

Holding the light out from your body is definitely an outdated tactic primarily because holding the light out from you body forces you to shoot one handed. You should never choose to shoot one-handed, although some situations force you to do it. Holding the light out from your body also tends to backlight you unless you push the light far forward which at least for those of us with normal arms doesn't really result in much separation from the light signature and your important parts (head and chest). Even when the light is out to your side and pushed forward, you still get lots of splashback from walls, ceilings, furniture etc. Carrying the light directly in front of you provides the least backlighting.

It's also pretty much impossible to do in many situations. Many places where we search are small, hallways, rooms full of furniture etc. It's tough enough to try to get more than one person in those rooms and when you're searching having as many guns up as possible leads to a longer life expectancy.

Finally, the new lights are bright, much brighter than those old Kellights or Maglights. The are MEANT to blind the opponent.

BTW, at least on the fed side, we still teach holding the flashlight out in certain situations It just isn't the preferred method.

[TMUSCLE1]

They make LED Maglites in the big size that we are all accustomed to now. I found it odd that nobody mentioned this. They aren't as bright as a Surefire, but they will more than get the job done. Also, what is needed to truly blind someone in a low light situation? I don't think that it will take much.

I keep two flashlights in my vehicle. Of course, I also have one at my bedside.

1. A big LED 3 cell Maglite just for roadside emergencies at night.

2. A small, bright, good LED in my center console for just because.

[raimius]

I recently bought a Fenix TK12. That thing is BRIGHT! 280lum.
As an improvised impact weapon...not so great. The bezel is crenelated, but has rather blunt edges. The plus side is it won't eat pant pockets like a surefire could. Overall, I like it. Five brightness settings in three modes. (I use the 120/11lum mode) If you order 123s online, they aren't that much more than regular batteries. CR123s also have a longer shelf life.

I have a 3D cell maglite in my car. Bright, sturdy, not too expensive, and it could make a half-way decent "stay back" tool.

[cje1980]

John, Maglites are "very" outdated. At least get one of the LED versions. A 3D Maglite LED produces about the same amount of light as the gigantic 5D and 6D incandescent versions but uses the batteries much more efficiently.

The thing is that the Maglites trick you into thinking they are bright for a couple reasons. One thing is that they have a huge bezel which directs a lot of light into a tiny spot with a lot of reach. The other is that Alkaline batteries tend to produce a lot of light output for a brief amount of time then tail off and produce a marginal amount of light for a long time.

You are on a firearms forum asking about using a flashlight as a weapon. Get yourself a tactical light to use with a firearm and your defensive needs are set. I have a couple of Surefires that would put the 6D Maglite to shame at fractions of the size and weight. Don't get me wrong I like Maglites for some uses but for using along with a firearm they are really outdated. I have a 2D Maglite that was issued to and used by my brother when he was deployed to New Orleans after Katrina. I put the Maglite LED drop in and its much brighter than it was before with better and more usable battery life. I'm a Supervisor at a big plant at night. I use this all the time and have only had to change the batteries once in the last two years. Its very bright and stays that way for a long time. I still don't think its a very good tactical light though. The regular Maglite versions are pretty much worthless though.

Check out the site below. This guy is a complete flashlight geek but really knows a lot about flashlights. If you look at the graph the Maglite is only bright for about an hour then produces much less light for a really long time. They will tell you it runs for 11 hours but its producing less than 50% of the original output for 10 of those 11 hours. I realize that he didn't review the 6D version but all flashlights that use incandescent bulbs and alkaline batteries are similar. They are bright for about an hour then the output really drops for the remainder of the battery life. Alkaline batteries just aren't very good for powering high power xenon bulbs. Tactical incandescent flashlights like Surefire and Streamlight produce a good hour of very bright light then quickly tail off before the batteries need to be changed. I don't really like the idea of using 6 D cell batteries to get the same light output of a much smaller and lighter light for the same amount of time.

My go to flashlight for hairy situations is a Surefire 6P LED. That will produce more light than a big 6D Maglite and run for a good 10+ hours with very good output. CREE LEDs are amazing. I also have a rechargable Surefire 9N that uses two incandescent bulbs for two different power levels. The high output bulb is 140 lumens. The only Maglite that can touch that is the Rechargable version. The Rechargable Maglite is actually a pretty good light and popular among LEOs. You really have to see the beam of a good tactical flashlight for yourself. It is a perfect combination of spot and flood. You only get either/or with the Maglite. Its either a really tight spot or a flood with a big donut in the middle. Maglite really needs to use a textured reflector.

http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm

[cje1980]

There are no immediately vital organs in the pelvis. The objective in deploying lethal force (once justified) is to kill; not injure, incapacitate or maim.

If you prefer the latter, carry a Taser or your choice of OC/CS.

booker, actually a pelvic shot is the recommended shot if being attacked with a knife or other weapon that isn't a firearm. That actually is the only shot that is guaranteed to immobilize an attacker. You can't walk with a broken pelvis. You see, if a guy is running at you with a knife you want to immobilize him, not necessarily kill him. However, that's not recommended if being shot at. You fire as many rounds COM until the threat has ended. A pelvic shot doesn't do any good if the other guy has a firearm.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Arrgggh!!

1. The objective to shooting is to stop the opponent. Killing may be a consequence but not the goal.

2. The pelvic shoot was not to immobilize. It was failure to stop drill where the opponent had, for example, body armor and didn't go down from a COM shot or shots. Supposedly easier than a head shot - debated.

3. It is not guaranteed to drop someone, who might shoot you from the ground anyway.

4. It wasn't for knife guys - knife guys get two in the chest, then the head while you are moving in away to disrupt their charge.

BTW, if you start saying rude things because I knocked down the kill statement - bad things happen to your membership. Don't make me do it!

[booker_t]

10-4

[cje1980]

Glenn I don't know if your comments were aimed at me. I was simply explaining to booker why some professionals train for pelvic shots. Many agencies believe it is a more reliable way to stop an attacker not armed with a firearm. I agree that the purpose of engaging a target wtih a firearm is stop the threat. A pelvic shot is one of way of accomplishing that. And in some situations one of the few ways to do that. You mentioned some of those reasons.

It can take quite a bit of time to stop an attacker with COM shtos from a handgun in some cases. However if they have a shattered pelvis they are immobilized. The pelvis is a very important part of the human skeletal system. I did say in my post that its not really effective if being shot at. However it can be more effective than COM shots if being attacked by a knife or baseball bat though.

Just disagreeing with booker about the objective of engaging a target and the usefulness of a pelvic shot.

[TMNT]

To sum up my experience.....Let me say that the 6D Mag light works just well. I was a recipient of a 6D cell Mag Lite beating years ago. Go figure the day I leave my pistol home gggggrrrrr. Never AGAIN! Depending on where your hit the first two hits you are stunned and semi conscience or can not use that body part. This went on for what it seemed like an eternity but really was like about 7 minuets. I felt like I wasn't in my body when I was getting hit. If I didn't try and block some of the hits with my wrists, arms and legs or try and grab the bloody flashlight I would be dead. I could see the hits coming but some of my blocks were late because of the beating. My motor skills and hand / eye coordination weren't connecting. In my case I was stunned and they kept beating me, until I regained my senses and was able to muster back a good fight. I really didn't feel much pain until the day after, dont get me wrong I sure felt it, but was worse the next day. I guess I lost to much blood to be worrying about pain or my adrenaline was pumping...dont know

But ya they work just well and a night club....don't worry about that.

[BillCA]

The following is personal opinion based on experices over the last 35+ years.

Surefire & other "tactical lights" serve two primary functions - illumination and visually impairing the target/suspect. The ultra bright lamps do both these functions very well. Their small size and relative light weight, combined with a momentary on/off switch (usually in the tailcap) means they're easy and convenient to use with a handgun. As an impact weapon, I'd rate them as poor simply because they lack reach and mass.

Maglites & other heavy duty aluminum lights serve several functions, depending on size. The heavier aircraft aluminum bodies can serve as impact weapons in a close quarters fight. They're usually bright enough to cause the target/suspect to squint or avert looking in the direction of the light. The adjustable heads on some allow a wide "search" beam or a narrow "intense" beam. Multiple battery units (over 2-cell size) supply an extended run time and add useful striking reach to the light.

C-Cell vs. D-Cell lights - Tac lights using small CR123 batteries are easy to hold in one hand. But the larger Maglight styles come in either "D" cell or "C" cell. Most common is the "D" cell. In the 60's-80's, many police used the multiple C-Cell Kel-Lite because the smaller "C" cell size allowed the flashlight to fit into a baton ring on the belt. During a fight, The longer 18-24" lights could easily be subsituted for a baton. Same techniques and similar tactics. With fresh batteries, the C-cell was just as bright as the D-cell. D-cells offered longer running time for traffic control, searching, vehicle repair, etc. The down side was they were about 15% heavier and harder to keep your grip on them.

Civilian Usage:
For the average civilian in a CCW situation, the tactical lights like "Surefire" lights offer bright illumination, blazingly blinding white light, easy use and good concealment. In plastic or aluminum, it's simply a good choice because you can always carry it alongside spare ammo or a cell phone.

For home or car use, I still prefer a 3 to 4 "C" cell light because you get more grip around the light. Unless you have the hands of an NFL linebacker, this will be critical if you use the light as a defensive impact weapon. But when selecting a light to use with a handgun, remember that the longer the light, the more difficult it will be to balance and keep the light on target. Those batteries are heavy and will pull down at the rear. Strong wrists are needed. For women and teens especially, the C-cell is the obvious choice to allow them to grip the light easily.

From experience in using them, the D-cell Maglight style lights lose their usefulness as impact weapons if you go beyond about 5-cell sizes. Too heavy to be really useful in close-in fight. All that mass & inertia will start working against you.

The longer, thinner C-cell lights that emulate a baton (6-10 cell) work well only if you know baton techniques. Yes, there's more to it that simply raining down blows on someone (aka "nine from the sky"). Otherwise stick to the 3-4 cell models.

Legal Warnings:
In some jurisdictions, if the flashlight contains a spacer that replaces battery capacity (i.e. a 4-cell light with a 6-cell length) the D.A. may classify the flashlight as a bludgeon, "nightstick" or other illegal weapon. Be sure you understand how authorities will view such a flashlight before carrying one like that.

[JohnH1963]

Thanks Bill. That was the best description so far. For illumination, it seems likke the CR123A flashlights can't be beat...but I dont have one of those batteries hanging around here and thats the main disadvantage versus getting the AA. I have plenty of double A batteries and can probably get a few of those out of some odd device around here if needed during a real emergency.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Really, a better way to stop with a pelvic shot?

I never heard that one -so I learned something. Every presentation I had of it was that it was a failure to stop drill - independent of the weapon present.

Immobilization by a shot at a moving part of the lower body seems a bad idea as it's iffy for the drop and shattering. I've been told that the shattering is not a given - at lots of times you just get a hole or even if you get a crack, it's not imobilizing.

I guess it's an empirical question about what's easier to hit, the head or the pelvis in the right place on a moving person while you're moving.

As far a stop vs. kill - here's our logic.

1. We don't support blood lust which we get from some folks (not in this thread particularly) where they expound how they would KILL!

2. If you go to court and the shoot is ambiguous - having posted that you shoot to kill rather than stop - might imply a motive and mindset to the jury. Your posts could be found and used. Thus, we prefer folks don't say that.

If I was cranky - then I shouldn't be.