Old Iver Johnson

The Rattler · December 12, 2014, 07:21 PM

I have a friend who inherited an Iver Johnson top break revolver. It has an exposed hammer & what appears to be a blued finish.

On the top of the barrel there is "Iver Johnson and Cycle Works Fitchburg, Mass. USA". Removing the hand grips reveals "A65807", which I understand is the serial number. However, there is what appears to be a similar, but different, number on the bottom of the trigger guard: "65800". The last digit is definitely not a "7", but it could either be a "0" or perhaps a "9".

1. What is the date of manufacture?

2. What caliber of cartridge does it use?

3. Can it fire modern cartridges safely, or was it designed for black powder cartridges?

4. If it only uses black powder cartridges, where can I obtain them?

5. What is the approximate value? The revolver is now in less than fair condition, but I plan to spend a good deal of time cleaning it up for my friend.

4. Any other information would be appreciated.

hartcreek · December 12, 2014, 10:44 PM

If it is functional it may be worth $100. The caliber should be stamped on the side of the barrel. It could be anything from a .22 to a .38 S&W.

DO NOT CLEAN IT you make make it worthless if you clean it wrong.

Photos make a big difference so we can see what you have and the quality. The date stamps are on the butt.

Yours should look like mine but be a few years older.

James K · December 12, 2014, 11:41 PM

As I understand it, IJ used some serial numbers twice, with the A series being used first in 1897 and again in 1911. The former would be in the black powder era, the latter in the smokeless powder period. Since you have had the grips off, the easy way to tell is to check the mainspring (hammer spring); if it is flat, the gun is for BP; if it is coil, the gun will handle smokeless.

Even a BP gun is not going to blow up and wipe out the county, like some folks seem to believe, but those guns will shoot loose if fed many rounds of smokeless powder loads. No black powder loads are currently made in either .32 S&W or .38 S&W; you would have to reload. (Note that the "S&W" is part of the cartridge name - they were introduced by Smith & Wesson, though used by many other revolver makers, including IJ.

As to value, IJ revolvers have minimal value unless in like-new condition. Ones in ordinary usable condition will normally sell at retail for around $75-100. Many dealers won't buy them or take them in trade because they won't make enough on them to cover the cost of the paperwork involved.

Generally, cleaning an antique gun beyond that usually done for any gun, is not a good idea, actually lessening the value. But an IJ has so little value, cleaning (unless you use a wire wheel and sandpaper) probably won't affect the value much one way or the other.

Jim

Clark · December 13, 2014, 03:16 AM

My grandfather had a top break 38sw Iver Johnson in the Alaskan Gold rush.
I collected them 10 or 15 years ago when they were $35 broken and $50 working.

I have two books for identifying them, both by Bill Goforth.
http://www.amazon.com/William-E.-Goforth/e/B001JS93GY

Usually someone wants to know if the gun is legally and antique, on or pre 1898.

That can be done, but it is not easy.

The guns has a weak top latch that can stretch with anything but wimpy ammo with soft Lead bullets.

The Rattler · December 13, 2014, 11:36 AM

I looked all over the revolver closely with a magnifying glass & did not find a caliber designation.

RJay · December 13, 2014, 02:05 PM

As Jim K. has posted the A prefix was used twice. Caliber? The A prefix was used on the small frame .32. that is the .32 S&W, the short one. If it has no Patent dates on the barrel, then it was made in 1897. The value is less than a hundred dollars, once you get it cleaned up the value will still be less than a hundred dollars.

hartcreek · December 13, 2014, 10:52 PM

H&R puts the patient dates on the barrel rib IJ puts them on the butt but in any case it should look like what I attached in my previous post. The only question is has it been converted to use a transfer bar.

RJay · December 13, 2014, 11:15 PM

Iver Johnson used both the barrel and butt to list patent dates, depends on the year made. Many times, the different patent markings and location can be used to determine the manufacture date to with in a couple of years and sometimes even the caliber. Bill Goforth's book, has two pages of different patent markings in his book. Transfer bar? Both the early A prefix's and the later smokeless A prefix's were Safety Automatics? , is that what you are asking? But in any case it is not an H&R and Iver Johnson used both locations at differ4ent times for the company address and patent dates!!!!

James K · December 13, 2014, 11:15 PM

For a crude caliber check in the absence of cartridges or a measuring device, one can use a common pencil. If it fits in the barrel with little wiggle, the gun is .32. If it won't come close to fitting, the gun is .22. If it drops in and wiggles a lot, the gun is .38. Not real scientific, but it works.

An IJ breaktop with an "A" serial number prefix would indicate a small frame, which would be only .22 or .32, not .38.

Jim

RJay · December 13, 2014, 11:19 PM

Jim, in this case it is listed as a small frame ,32.

Ron James

The Rattler · December 14, 2014, 12:47 PM

First, thank you for all responses to my questions. Thanks for the much needed help.

I am still unclear about some things & would like to confirm my understandings are correct.

1. This gun looks just like Hardcreek's photo.

2. The hammer spring is a coil & not flat. That means it is not designed for black powder, correct?

3. There is no patent information on the barrel. That means it was manufactured in 1897, correct, or is this conclusion inconsistent with the conclusion in no. 2, above?

4. R. Jay, thanks for finding a list showing it is a .32 caliber. I take it that the cartridge to buy is a 32 S&W (or 32 short)?

5. I understand the gun has a low value. It has some rust on the exterior, but removing the rust results in removing the finish. It seems to me that the rust ought to be removed, but should I not do that?

Again, thanks for the helpful responses from everyone.

RJay · December 14, 2014, 01:14 PM

Hartcreek, I just reread my reply to your posting and I realized it sounded a little snarly. sorry about that, didn't mean for it to be. Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle was constantly making changes to their guns and changing both the content and location of their different markings, it's enough to made a sober man drink and a drinking man to go on the wagon. Rattler, the markings may have worn off over the last hundred years, the coil mainspring makes it a smokeless frame and if other wise in good mechanical condition, safe for modern loads. The 32 S&W is a powder puff load .

The Rattler · December 14, 2014, 02:52 PM

Thank you very much, Ron.

hartcreek · December 14, 2014, 08:58 PM

One of these days I am going to post piks of a BP H&R .32 S&W that I need to order springs for. I tried getting them from Numrich but I did something wrong in the identification of this little Premier .32 S&W.

James K · December 14, 2014, 11:13 PM

Hi, RJay,

My use of the pencil test was a general note; an A prefix serial number would, as you say, indicate a small frame revolver in .32 S&W caliber.

Hi, Rattler,

The cartridge is the .32 S&W, sometimes called the .32 S&W Short, though technically there was no "Short", only the .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long. The latter was introduced in 1896 for use in the then-new S&W swing cylinder revolver, but it was used in breaktops, including the large frame IJ's, solid frame revolvers, and even in a few auto pistols.

Jim

Jon80 · December 15, 2014, 06:48 PM

....just not cheap. I ordered a box of 50 from buffaloarms.com two days ago, listed as "ample stock", verified shipped this morning. Inherited a Hopkins and Allen .38 5 shot, branded as a Thames Arms, gonna see what she'll do.

December 12, 2014, 07:21 PM	#1
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Old Iver Johnson I have a friend who inherited an Iver Johnson top break revolver. It has an exposed hammer & what appears to be a blued finish. On the top of the barrel there is "Iver Johnson and Cycle Works Fitchburg, Mass. USA". Removing the hand grips reveals "A65807", which I understand is the serial number. However, there is what appears to be a similar, but different, number on the bottom of the trigger guard: "65800". The last digit is definitely not a "7", but it could either be a "0" or perhaps a "9". 1. What is the date of manufacture? 2. What caliber of cartridge does it use? 3. Can it fire modern cartridges safely, or was it designed for black powder cartridges? 4. If it only uses black powder cartridges, where can I obtain them? 5. What is the approximate value? The revolver is now in less than fair condition, but I plan to spend a good deal of time cleaning it up for my friend. 4. Any other information would be appreciated.

December 12, 2014, 10:44 PM	#2
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	needed to add photo If it is functional it may be worth $100. The caliber should be stamped on the side of the barrel. It could be anything from a .22 to a .38 S&W. DO NOT CLEAN IT you make make it worthless if you clean it wrong. Photos make a big difference so we can see what you have and the quality. The date stamps are on the butt. Yours should look like mine but be a few years older. Last edited by hartcreek; December 26, 2014 at 10:59 PM.

December 13, 2014, 03:16 AM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	My grandfather had a top break 38sw Iver Johnson in the Alaskan Gold rush. I collected them 10 or 15 years ago when they were $35 broken and $50 working. I have two books for identifying them, both by Bill Goforth. http://www.amazon.com/William-E.-Goforth/e/B001JS93GY Usually someone wants to know if the gun is legally and antique, on or pre 1898. That can be done, but it is not easy. The guns has a weak top latch that can stretch with anything but wimpy ammo with soft Lead bullets. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

December 13, 2014, 11:36 AM	#5
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Caliber I looked all over the revolver closely with a magnifying glass & did not find a caliber designation. Last edited by The Rattler; December 13, 2014 at 01:45 PM.

December 13, 2014, 02:05 PM	#6
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	As Jim K. has posted the A prefix was used twice. Caliber? The A prefix was used on the small frame .32. that is the .32 S&W, the short one. If it has no Patent dates on the barrel, then it was made in 1897. The value is less than a hundred dollars, once you get it cleaned up the value will still be less than a hundred dollars. __________________ Ron James

December 12, 2014, 11:41 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	As I understand it, IJ used some serial numbers twice, with the A series being used first in 1897 and again in 1911. The former would be in the black powder era, the latter in the smokeless powder period. Since you have had the grips off, the easy way to tell is to check the mainspring (hammer spring); if it is flat, the gun is for BP; if it is coil, the gun will handle smokeless. Even a BP gun is not going to blow up and wipe out the county, like some folks seem to believe, but those guns will shoot loose if fed many rounds of smokeless powder loads. No black powder loads are currently made in either .32 S&W or .38 S&W; you would have to reload. (Note that the "S&W" is part of the cartridge name - they were introduced by Smith & Wesson, though used by many other revolver makers, including IJ. As to value, IJ revolvers have minimal value unless in like-new condition. Ones in ordinary usable condition will normally sell at retail for around $75-100. Many dealers won't buy them or take them in trade because they won't make enough on them to cover the cost of the paperwork involved. Generally, cleaning an antique gun beyond that usually done for any gun, is not a good idea, actually lessening the value. But an IJ has so little value, cleaning (unless you use a wire wheel and sandpaper) probably won't affect the value much one way or the other. Jim

December 13, 2014, 10:52 PM	#7
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	H&R puts the patient dates on the barrel rib IJ puts them on the butt but in any case it should look like what I attached in my previous post. The only question is has it been converted to use a transfer bar.

December 13, 2014, 11:15 PM	#8
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Iver Johnson used both the barrel and butt to list patent dates, depends on the year made. Many times, the different patent markings and location can be used to determine the manufacture date to with in a couple of years and sometimes even the caliber. Bill Goforth's book, has two pages of different patent markings in his book. Transfer bar? Both the early A prefix's and the later smokeless A prefix's were Safety Automatics? , is that what you are asking? But in any case it is not an H&R and Iver Johnson used both locations at differ4ent times for the company address and patent dates!!!! __________________ Ron James

December 13, 2014, 11:19 PM	#10
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Jim, in this case it is listed as a small frame ,32. Ron James __________________ Ron James

December 14, 2014, 12:47 PM	#11
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Response To Posts Iver Johnson First, thank you for all responses to my questions. Thanks for the much needed help. I am still unclear about some things & would like to confirm my understandings are correct. 1. This gun looks just like Hardcreek's photo. 2. The hammer spring is a coil & not flat. That means it is not designed for black powder, correct? 3. There is no patent information on the barrel. That means it was manufactured in 1897, correct, or is this conclusion inconsistent with the conclusion in no. 2, above? 4. R. Jay, thanks for finding a list showing it is a .32 caliber. I take it that the cartridge to buy is a 32 S&W (or 32 short)? 5. I understand the gun has a low value. It has some rust on the exterior, but removing the rust results in removing the finish. It seems to me that the rust ought to be removed, but should I not do that? Again, thanks for the helpful responses from everyone.

December 14, 2014, 01:14 PM	#12
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Hartcreek, I just reread my reply to your posting and I realized it sounded a little snarly. sorry about that, didn't mean for it to be. Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle was constantly making changes to their guns and changing both the content and location of their different markings, it's enough to made a sober man drink and a drinking man to go on the wagon. Rattler, the markings may have worn off over the last hundred years, the coil mainspring makes it a smokeless frame and if other wise in good mechanical condition, safe for modern loads. The 32 S&W is a powder puff load . __________________ Ron James Last edited by RJay; December 14, 2014 at 09:21 PM.

December 14, 2014, 02:52 PM	#13
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Iver Johnson Info Thank you very much, Ron.

December 14, 2014, 08:58 PM	#14
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	NP RJay One of these days I am going to post piks of a BP H&R .32 S&W that I need to order springs for. I tried getting them from Numrich but I did something wrong in the identification of this little Premier .32 S&W.

December 14, 2014, 11:13 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, RJay, My use of the pencil test was a general note; an A prefix serial number would, as you say, indicate a small frame revolver in .32 S&W caliber. Hi, Rattler, The cartridge is the .32 S&W, sometimes called the .32 S&W Short, though technically there was no "Short", only the .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long. The latter was introduced in 1896 for use in the then-new S&W swing cylinder revolver, but it was used in breaktops, including the large frame IJ's, solid frame revolvers, and even in a few auto pistols. Jim

December 15, 2014, 06:48 PM	#16
Jon80 Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 19	.38 S&W black powder are available ....just not cheap. I ordered a box of 50 from buffaloarms.com two days ago, listed as "ample stock", verified shipped this morning. Inherited a Hopkins and Allen .38 5 shot, branded as a Thames Arms, gonna see what she'll do.

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