Every man's dilemma

[Dr. Strangelove]

and somewhere on another forum...

I was leaving a concert with a friend the other night, we were walking toward our car, laughing it up, had been awhile since we'd seen each other. Suddenly, this older couple in front of us starts acting all weird and get this - the fool pulls out a pistol!

My buddy and I high-tailed it, because you know all those old couples are exactly alike, "head on a swivel", "condition red 24/7", and all that other chest thumping foolish garbage you read about.:barf:

We were going to call the police, but didn't want to mess up our night.

If you are going to attend a concert in a major urban center like Atlanta, and minorities, urban youth, people of a different race, age, or socio-economic background freak you out, then you best stay home.

You friend is lucky he is not in jail.

[Glenn Bartley]

To be quite honest, to me it sounds as if your friend is overly jumpy but that characterization is based solely on what you told us. There has to be more detail to this about what made him feel threatened. Oh that is right, you said he was not threatened just thought threat was imminent. Yes, overly jumpy might fit the bill.

Deadly force, even the threat of it, was, in my opinion, inappropriate in that instance. Whatever happened to a verbal challenge. These guys were quite a distance off. As they continue to walk "Hey, are you guys following us, what do you want". This said then he has the wife pull out her cell phone as if dialing 911 and as the husband places his hand as if to draw. If a threat still seems imminent, in a loud voice again - "I am armed and willing to defend us. Keep back, stop". And "Call the police dear tell them we are being followed". If still approaching, or approaching faster or if they produce a weapon or even make a verbal threat - well now maybe there is a threat, certainly a whole lot more to be able to articulate should things go wrong and maybe time to draw then but still to keep retreating. Retreating not because of any law but because it is better to avoid trouble than to meet it head on in such a situation if possible.

To have taken out his gun, as he did, seems really overboard to me.

On a totally different tangent, what if the 2 had been undercover police officers, walking along the same way for any number of legitimate reasons. He draws the gun, brandishes it as he did, and is shot dead. Very foolish move based on the feeling that a threat was about to materialize. In addition, you cannot judge the wisdom or foolishness of taking out the pistol just because the guys took off; them running does not make them guilty they may just have been scared. They could have been regular Joes who had been going to the same area as your friends - who knows. Maybe they even called the police after they felt safe. I am willing to bet your buddy did not wait around to see if the police had been called and then showed up.

I think it was a gross over reaction based on what you told us so far.

One other thing:

If those two guys had pulled out a pistol, would your friend had considered that a threat. My guess is, if he saw one of them draw a pistol, even if it was not pointed at him, he would have felt threatened to at least some extent. So ask him if he would have thought, upon them pulling out a gun, if he would have felt threatened at all. If he says no, ask him why he felt a threat was imminent when he had not seen a gun. If he says yes, then ask him how it was that him pulling out a pistol was not supposed to be taken as a threat by them - after all you said he did so not as a threat but as a show of force. I think any normal person would see it as a threat to some extent under those circumstances. Had I been the guy behind your friend, he may well have wound up dead because when I pulled my own upon seeing his, I quite possibly would have been shooting.

All the best,
GB

[9mm]

You just can not draw your gun because you feel "unsafe"

He should have just said hey! I left my uhh ummm glasses,money,wallet, What ever, just turned back and see if the "thugs" followed him back to the building. If they did then you have a problem.

[Tactical Jackalope]

All these situations to me are a hit or miss in my most honest opinion. Depends on a bunch of different things.

For the most part he did okay. I wouldn't have pulled it out, just turned around and lightly confront with a "can I help you boys with something?" depending on their probably smart ass response would dictate my next move.

I will be a lot more agitated and aggressive if I have a female with me or family.

[mnero]

In Maryland, I am sure it would be brandishing and menacing as well. I agree with Dr. Strangelove. Seems like he was a bit jumpy. We gotta be careful not to give any 'ammo' to the guys who want to take away all gun rights. But I wasn't there so can't say; not for sure.

[TCL]

It is difficult to judge the man in the arena. We were not there; we do not know exactly what happened.

That said, based on what is posted here, I think that most jurisdictions would hold that your friend was in the wrong.

Would a reasonable person have felt threatened? Perhaps. If we accept that a reasonable person would have felt threatened, then the next question is whether a reasonable person would have been in fear of his life. If the answer to that is no - and based on what we know, the answer is no - then the threat of deadly force is not justified. There were other means available to de-escalate the situation, which your friend did not take. Instead he escalated the situation by using a threat of deadly force; that's pretty much the textbook definition of brandishing.

Deadly force is always the last resort. Your friend made it the first. That's where he went wrong.

[45Gunner]

The following is taken from the web site of an attorney that specializes in defending people that are involved with Firearm Violations:

Improper Exhibition Of A Firearm Or Other Weapon

Improper exhibition of a firearm and or improper display of a weapon are crimes governed by Florida Statute 790.10. This statute is officially titled as "improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms", and the statute states that "if any person having or carrying any . . . weapon shall, in the presence of one or more (other) persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree".

The offense owes its roots to the common law crime of "brandishing". The case law on this crime is rather sparse, and what type of conduct the statute exactly prohibits is not made very clear by the wording of the statute, either. It is usually applied as a “lesser” of aggravated assault, and leaves the possibility of an aggravated assault being “plea bargained” down to this significantly lower crime. However, it can also be charged because a person displayed a firearm so carelessly that other persons in the immediate vicinity reasonably believed they might get accidentally shot, or displayed a weapon in a manner that was blatantly offensive to most reasonable people. From a defensive standpoint, what you should know about this crime is that whether you violate it or not will be determined on an "objective" basis rather a "subjective" basis. That is: would a reasonable person viewing your actions with the gun or other weapon consider such display as being done in an unreasonably offensive manner, or being done in a manner that creates an unreasonable risk of injury to other persons or property? If it doesn’t meet these qualifications – it shouldn’t constitute the crime. Likewise, use of a gun or other weapon in lawful self-defense is also a defense to the charge

As a criminal lawyer who has handled quite a few gun and weapon related charges – I’d repeat that the statute is most often applied as a lesser and/or alternate charge to aggravated assault. Where improper exhibition stops and aggravated assault begins is often a question that Florida case law states -- only a jury can answer. Thus, if I am representing a client in a gun crime situation where the charge is aggravated assault – I’ll almost always suggest that a plea to an amended or lesser charge of "improper exhibition" is a smart way to resolve the case if that's possible. It’s very difficult to complain that you plead to a misdemeanor when the alternative was to take a chance on going to trial on a felony that carries a three year mandatory minimum prison sentence if you lose.

We all talk about practicing tactics and running scenarios in the name of being prepared for the day we may have to defend ourselves. If I were involved in the presentation as posed by the OP, I think I would have been prepared to use my gun, but only as a last resort. If one feels so threatened, a reasonable jury may ask, "Why didn't you run away?" Is this a matter of pride and not wanting to back down from what one perceives as BG's? Can you show me where you thought your life was in imminent danger or were you about to suffer great bodily harm or sexual assault? At 20 yards, I think not.
While it is true that your perception is indeed your reality, one must think of an escape route before thinking of using a gun. In this case, if it happened in Florida, and it was witnessed by a LEO, I shutter to think of the legal bills that will accrue as result of what was a non-event.

[Nitesites]

I believe Georgia law does allow open carry without a permit.

With all due respect, I believe you are mistaken. The following link is from GeorgiaCarry.org. The issue of open carry without a permit is addressed in the 3rd Q&A...

http://www.gacarry.org/cms/georgias-...rearms_License

[droidw]

With all possible respect to every forum member here:

It is often quite difficult to assess quickly and correctly the danger level of some given situation.

It is even more difficult to assess it when you're in fear of your life (and the life of your beloved ones).

The task increases its difficulty even more when you don't know for sure if that sidearm you wear is going to effectively function, if your training is going to work, if the person beside you know how to react...well, we normal people are not SEAL operators...

OTOH, it is also true that if the "other team" has no bad intentions, then the mere display of a firearm is an aggresive attitude towards them, and they may call the police.

Question is, are you willing to bet your life on that?

My opinion is that I would have drawn as discreetly as I could, hiding or camouflaging the gun in a pocket or some other suitable place, to be as prepared as I could for a fight, but without revealing my cards to them, which is precisely what they might be doing to catch me off guard.

Kind regards.

[Sport45]

The question was:

if the police been called or witnessed the episode could he have been charged with a crime

Does anyone think the answer is no?

[Nitesites]

My opinion -Yes. But I can't fault him.

OPINIONS - You know what they say about them...

[micromontenegro]

You just can not draw your gun because you feel "unsafe"

Nicely put in a single sentence.

[yourang?]

i dont know if i would go to a concert packing

just about every venue i have ever been to has a pretty rigorous
pat down upon entering...and i have been to many

if carrying and discovered, at best, is a walk back to the parking lot
to lock up your ccw

at worst, getting hassled and detained and even arrested

heck, even a knife can get you in trouble, without even trying

maybe just putting your hand so it is seen, where your holster is,
might be enough of a message?

and getting in the call to 911 first, as good as it sounds, still might be enough to get you busted for menacing

i guess a tough spot to be in

[Roland Thunder]

Originally Posted by BarryLee

but I thought you said in the OP that he had a license.

I said he had a conceal carry permit:

A friend of mine told me about something that recently happenned to him and his wife. He and his wife had gone downtown one night to a concert in Atlanta GA where they live. The friend was armed with a .40 caliber conceal carry pistol. He also had a conceal permit to carry it. As they were walking back to their car about 11pm they noticed a couple of young punks appear from what seemed to be out of nowhere and began to follow about 20 yards behind them. As they walked down one street, turning the corner and walking down another, the punks continued to follow them. They started talking louder trying to get get the attention of my friend. There was no one else around and they were pretty sure they were about to get mugged. My friend, according to him, stopped and pulled his pistol out of his pocket. According to him, he pointed it down at the ground being careful not to point it at them as he did not want to threaten them but only wanted them to see that he was prepared to defend himself if need be. At this point they had not threatened him or his wife although he figured it was imminent. He didn't say a word to them. When they saw the pistol, they scattered and took off running. He figured they didn't look like the types that would go call the cops so he figured he was safe and never heard anymore about it.

My question is if the police been called or witnessed the episode could he have been charged with a crime since he felt threatened and he did not point the gun or threaten them but only made them aware he was armed.

[MLeake]

I think the GA law about "public gatherings" has more to do with festivals and political rallies, although I've never tried to bring a weapon to a concert. I was looking at some other states' laws the other day, and some specifically prohibit weapons at concerts.

As far as whether the guy was in the wrong to pull a weapon, I can't say. I wasn't there, and I don't know how the two guys following were behaving. I will say that the violent crime rate in Atlanta is high, which is one reason I spend minimal time in the metro area.

With regard to 20yds being three times the permitted defensive range, where the heck did you come up with that one, Alaska444? I've never seen a codified range, although most instructors would recommend that if you have distance, use it to make an exit.

I suspect people are confusing the meaning of the Tueller drill, when it comes to the magical "7 yards." That distance is the MINIMUM distance at which the normal shooter could draw and get off a shot before a knife/club wielding attacker can close and strike. In other words, if you are really feeling threatened, but wait until 7 yards, you are very likely screwed.

[BarryLee]

I said he had a conceal carry permit

Forgive me I may be mistaken, but I thought in Georgia a Georgia Firearms License was all that was required for carry. Is there a second permit for concealed carry? Can someone clarify?

[MLeake]

I think your confusion is caused by the fact that the GA state website has a page for applying for a "Georgia Firearms Permit."

http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/portal.../FirearmPermit

Whereas, on my CCW card, it's actually labeled GEORGIA FIREARMS LICENSE.

Either way, it's for CCW purposes. GA doesn't require purchase permits in the sense of NC, or firearms licenses in the sense of NY.

[TailGator]

State of Florida law (only 1 i can speak for) states that if you pull you should be shooting.

Add me to the "show-me" list. I am a Floridian who has had a CCW permit for over 20 years.

However, I personally would not want to need to answer questions by the police unless I had a better reason for unholstering than someone was walking behind me, regardless of their description.

[MLeake]

And yet in over 90% of cases where guns are used to defend against a crime, the crime ceases without a shot fired...

... so tell me again how if you draw, you should automatically shoot.

That's such a crock it isn't funny, but there seem to be any number of posters who think it's gospel.

If I feel endangered, in fear of life or serious injury, I'm justified to shoot, and to take lesser actions, to include drawing. If the laws in your jurisdiction differ, then the odds are they are just badly written.

[BarryLee]

Whereas, on my CCW card, it's actually labeled GEORGIA FIREARMS LICENSE.

Thanks.
Yes, that is the same thing I have. I suspect Greg and I are referring to the same thing just utilizing different names for the document.

[MLeake]

... if I'd noticed the "The ATL (OTP)" bit under your SN. Sorry, BarryLee.

[output]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

and somewhere on another forum...

I was leaving a concert with a friend the other night, we were walking toward our car, laughing it up, had been awhile since we'd seen each other. Suddenly, this older couple in front of us starts acting all weird and get this - the fool pulls out a pistol!

My buddy and I high-tailed it, because you know all those old couples are exactly alike, "head on a swivel", "condition red 24/7", and all that other chest thumping foolish garbage you read about.

We were going to call the police, but didn't want to mess up our night.

If you are going to attend a concert in a major urban center like Atlanta, and minorities, urban youth, people of a different race, age, or socio-economic background freak you out, then you best stay home.

You friend is lucky he is not in jail.

That might very well be the case. It is also highly probable that the two guys that were following this couple meant to do them harm.

I was born and raised in one of the worse parts of Chicago. Younger kids, drug addicts, gang members, and anyone else that I ever saw attack or mess with another person always picked couples, elderly, or people that did not look as if they could defend themselves as their targets of choice. They would often work in groups or pairs, they almost always attacked from behind, and they were often very loud, arrogant, or obnoxious before the attack...

There are obviously a lot of unknowns in this discussion. Had someone called the police your friend might have gotten into some trouble with the law. I am glad your friend made it out of the situation safely. Unfortunately cases like this are never really as black and white as we would like them to be.

[Capt. Charlie]

This is more about the legalities of the actions in the OP than it is tactics or training. Moving to L&CR.

[funny book flapjack]

GA laws got MUCH better in the last year!

Public gathering law was done away with in Georgia.

Carry in non-secure areas of airport now legal.

Bars are now okay with owner's permission.

But, you still must have carry permit to open (& conceal) carry.

Still a few places like churches, gov't buildings, etc. where it's illegal.

There is no brandishing law in GA.

So sounds like he was legal.

Best way to handle it? Maybe. It worked & no one got hurt, so I ain't gonna say he was wrong to show it.

[FrankenMauser]

Until last year, Utah code was written in a way that several different sections combined to create a situation in which a legally concealed weapon nearly always had to be fired, if drawn. Otherwise, brandishing charges were very likely; due to a very ambiguous definition of "brandishing", and lack of the following exception:

Utah Code
Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 10 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Welfare, and Morals
Section 506 Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.

76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
(1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include:
(a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or
(b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a).
(2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force:
(a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or
(b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.

Emphasis mine. The referenced section, 76-2-402, is titled "Force in defense of person"; if anyone was wondering.