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Old April 12, 2008, 10:03 PM   #26
schnarrgj
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Location: St Louis, Missouri
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This type of question always bothers me a little. If someone needs to ask if the 223 is enough, that person probably does not have the right knowledge and experience to use it effectively.

The phrase--Its not the arrow that kills the deer but the Indian--answers the question. Too often, I see the new hunter at the range with the newest magnum or the 22 calibers. they will both do the job of killing the deer it you do your part but both will cause lost wounded animals. With the magnums, it takes practice, knowledge of your limitations and more practice to be able to shoot them well enough to use them effectively. Most once a year hunters develop a highly developed flinch from them. The extra power will not make up for bad bullet placement. With the 22s, you have to know your own limitations and that of your choice of caliber. Again, if you need to ask, you probably should not be using it.

With all that being said, I have used the 223 to great effect at times and my brother uses it exclusively. He has a cervical spine injury that prevents him from using even a 243. Where we hunt, the average shot is well under 50 yards. We both have been hunting for well over 40 years and now know what we can and cannot do with those rifles. My usual deer calibers are 7x57,8x57,7.62x54r or the 7.5x55.
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Old April 12, 2008, 11:26 PM   #27
Yithian
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I can make my own bullets. I know people with lathes.
I can hit a primer at 100 yards with my 204. ATTT posted a vid of it on youtube.
A bears eye has how much armor in it to protect the bears brain?
I believe a 45gr soft point can penetrate it. I propose, we find out.
Sorry, for those that don't know, taylorce1 and I are having a conversation.
I'll quit here... maybe PM's?

This thread is about inexperienced hunters.

+1 schnarrgj
lol
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Old April 13, 2008, 08:29 AM   #28
roy reali
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Energy Comparison

Here are the numbers. I just looked them up on the Remington website.

Muzzle Energy
.22-250 1654
.45-70 1590

Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear. If kinetic enrgy was so important, then how were the bison wiped out?
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Old April 13, 2008, 09:05 AM   #29
fisherman66
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Quote:
If someone needs to ask if the 223 is enough, that person probably does not have the right knowledge and experience to use it effectively.
I think that's a good point. So much is dictated by the skill and knowledge of the individual. Poachers "do fine" with a 22lr, but that doesn't make it an acceptable choice for a cartridge.

So much has changed in bullet construction in the last 20 years. That opens up a lot of options for the experienced rifleman. I'd never recommend a .223, but there are many people capable of have the shot discipline to make it work.

I'm a "middle of the road" type of shooter, but I have no problem with a marksman taking an AR out to the field.

Quote:
I truly see this as casting a bad light, and or unethical actions on us, the sport hunting crowd.
The people who would see us in a bad light already do or lack the understand of how ballistics work to understand the handicap imposed by an "inferior" cartridge. They are the least of my concerns. A humane death is near the top. The shooter is in control of that, not the load (but I will admit the load suffers as the shooter suffers).

When I was new to hunting I had a lot of self imposed hard and fast rules. As I learned I gained a greater understanding of how tissue and lead mix or don't mix; whatever. I still adhere to my rules, but I don't look down my nose at anyone with the understanding of how their choices affect them.
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Old April 13, 2008, 01:18 PM   #30
elkman06
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Location: Wyoming
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Quote:
Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear. If kinetic enrgy was so important, then how were the bison wiped out?
I gotta ask, why would you not compare apples to apples? A modern 45/70 per Federals' program is sending a 300gr bullet out of the barrel at 2355lbft of energy. Man, talk about a Mack truck hitting you...
The bison were wiped out via a lot of guys using 45/70s', 45/90s' and the like. Not the 44/40's of the day. Too many bullets to get the job done. They were business men who didn't want to affect the profit margin by using too light a caliber. Bang for the buck you know.
Back to the subject matter, As has allready been hashed and rehashed..Yes, any caliber in the right hands will kill an animal. I just hope that we all consider the advice we might give a rookie and give it wisely.
What I have learned with this thread is that my mentality(being a Western state longer range type hunter), does not equate into common sense per se a Southeastern hunter. We have totally dissimilar experiences and attitudes.
I have also learned a lot about peoples attitudes and opinions about energy xfer on animals. That is a wholly different concept that can be beat to death as well. A difference of opinion that I had not really considered.
Anyway, happy hunting folks.
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Last edited by elkman06; April 13, 2008 at 01:19 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old April 13, 2008, 07:00 PM   #31
taylorce1
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Quote:
Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear.
I never said it was all about energy, but you got to ask yourself even with less that 100 ft-lbs of energy which bullet is going to transfer that energy longer. The 55 grain bullet of the .22-250 will not be able to maintain it's energy like the 405 grain .45-70. The .45-70 will be harder to stop so it's energy will remain in effect longer until it comes to a stop inside the animal or completely exits. I'm sure with all the energy advantage of the .22-250 round well be lost in the first few inches of penetration, while the larger .45-70 bullet will continue for several inches more.

I'm pretty sure the "hot rod" load I picked which is the Federal 300 grain isn't too hot for most older rifles. Most ammunition manufactures will not load the .45-70 hot because the fear of it being shot in older rifles. I didn't go looking for hot loads at all I just went looking for a standard load, if I had wanted a hot load I would have quoted something out of Buffalo Bore's web page.
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