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October 9, 2011, 05:29 PM | #26 |
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How about FCD with replaceable sizer insert? This way you can use:
1. FCD without the carbide sizer (essentially a taper crimp die for separate seat/taper crimp operations) 2. FCD with smaller carbide sizer for smaller diameter jacketed/plated bullets (say for 9mm .355" sized bullets) 3. FCD with larger carbide sizer for larger diameter lead bullets (.356" sized bullets) 4. FCD with even larger carbide sizer for even larger diameter lead bullets for oversized barrels (say .357"-.358" sized bullets) Do you think Lee would go for something like this? |
October 9, 2011, 06:02 PM | #27 |
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Taper crimp is a bad name for the operation that is occuring. It should be called flare or bell remover.
Roll crimp is a good name for what happens when you roll crimp. I am not quite sure exactly what the "wrinkles" are that the FCD carbide ring "irons" out. Are the "wrinkles" from over belling the case mouth? Maybe someone can help me because I am confused. Every case I have sent though my sizer die has ironed out any case imperfections or bulges. And if there are still any slightly out-of-round case mouths the flaring die fixes that. Does the FCD carbide sizer ring size further down the case than the sizer die? Someone please enlighten me.
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October 9, 2011, 06:28 PM | #28 | ||
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It's my belief that the sizer die does more to resize the round from the inside out, such as ironing out flat spots in the case mouth. In my experience I haven't seen it do much to the outside of the case. |
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October 9, 2011, 08:23 PM | #29 | |||
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October 9, 2011, 08:40 PM | #30 |
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I have learned a lot from this thread. I learned to reload from my dad and we did not have anything like this. I got most of my equipment from him and never needed to buy any new dies tell a couple of years ago. The extra die option had me scratching my head as to what it was for. I kind of figured it out but you all have cleared it up for me much better. Thank you!
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time. No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it. |
October 9, 2011, 08:43 PM | #31 |
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I don't think everyone here understands the post-sizing ring in the FCD is larger than the sizing ring in the size/decap die. It doesn't squeeze a proper size bullet causing the problems mentioned above.
You can, of course, set it up to crimp too much. But then you can do that with any crimp die. It's never a good idea to run a loaded round into a sizing die as the problems mentioned above regarding bullet swaging can and will occur.
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October 9, 2011, 11:10 PM | #32 |
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Came up with a suggestion for FCD post-sizing larger diameter lead bullets.
How about a removable carbide sizer ring that was used for Lee Speed Dies? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...16#post7642516 Can you imagine? Future 4 die sets with FCD and carbide sizer ring of choice. (Remove the carbide sizer ring to use it as a separate taper crimp die and screw in the different sizer ring to custom tailor your FCD!) Factory Crimp Die on the left - Speed die on the right (note removable carbide sizer on the bottom): |
October 10, 2011, 07:27 AM | #33 |
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BDS-
What is the purpose of the larger carbide rings??? What will it do??? Keep from swaging lead bullets?? I can guarantee as long as your sizer die is set up properly that the enlarged carbide ring will never touch the case. The die will only apply a taper crimp....and you can do this with the seating die. As stated above the carbide ring on the sizer die is SMALLER than the carbide ring on the FCD. In conclusion: I guess it just comes down to whatever works for you. If it works, use it. I, fortunately, have never found a use for it.
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October 10, 2011, 08:19 AM | #34 | |
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For 9mm, .355" groove diameter barrels will properly fit a .356" sized lead bullets. But many factory barrels are oversized at .356", .357" or even .358". Some will shoot .357"/.358" sized lead bullets for proper bullet-to-barrel fit to reduce leading in the barrel. larger carbide sizer rings will allow for larger diameter lead bullets and eliminate post-sizing of the bullets which contribute to leading problem. I believe the carbide sizer ring that comes with the FCD was meant for the typical jacketed diameter bullets. If Lee were to modify the FCD with removable sizer ring, larger diameter sizer rings can be offered for larger diameter lead bullets. Last edited by BDS-THR; October 10, 2011 at 08:24 AM. |
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October 10, 2011, 08:28 AM | #35 |
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I don't know if Lee could use a larger ring in the FCD. The one that's in there is probably just under SAAMI minimum chamber specs.
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October 10, 2011, 08:35 AM | #36 |
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BDS - I understand 100% what you are saying. I use .358" cast boolits in 9mm. So say if I had a carbide ring measuring .359" + the thickness of the brass at the case mouth ( x2), what would that accomplish? The sizer die has already sized the brass back to spec. Just not sure what the carbide ring would do. Thanks.
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October 10, 2011, 09:15 AM | #37 |
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Actually, I use .020" added to the diameter of the bullet (.010" average thickness of brass case wall thickness) to determine my taper crimp. So .358" diameter lead bullet will require .378" taper crimp to not post-size the bullet (I believe the SAAMI max is .380" at the case neck and taper out to .3811").
I am sure someone else could better explain the original intent of the FCD. My understanding of the carbide sizer in the FCD was to remove the slight bulge that seating of bullets produced so the finished cases looked flat. While this works fine for jacketed diameter bullets, it will post-size larger diameter lead bullets. Does anyone even know whether Lee ever meant the FCD to be used for larger diameter lead bullets? My sentiment is that it was only meant for jacketed diameter bullets. If FCD had removable carbide sizer like the Speed Die, one could get the right diameter sizer to remove this bullet seating bulge without post-sizing the lead bullet to the point of affecting bullet-to-barrel fit. |
October 10, 2011, 09:31 AM | #38 |
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That seating "bulge" is there for a reason...it provides needed tension to hold the bullet so there is no setback when chambering (on auto loading pistols).
If you are getting excessive "bulging" to the point where the rounds won't chamber, then your flaring die is not set up properly. Generally, when shooting lead boolits, the case bulge is more dramatic. Just for clarification, I am calling the case "bulge" the part of the brass that is slightly bulged out after seating a bullet in the case. Eliminating this case bulge will inadvertently swage the bullet down and leave less case neck tension, which can lead to big problems with bullet setback.
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October 10, 2011, 09:42 AM | #39 | |
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October 10, 2011, 09:46 AM | #40 |
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I don't know about oversize bullets, but it doesn't touch the brass when I load .358 cast bullets in .38/357 or .452-.454 cast bullets in .45 Colt.
They still sport the seating bulge after going through the FCD. I agree that ironing that bulge out would cause problems. It's just that the FCD doesn't do that. At least none of mine do.
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October 10, 2011, 10:25 AM | #41 | ||
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October 10, 2011, 10:53 AM | #42 | |
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It doesn't correct mistakes, it just makes sure the cartridge will fit in the chamber.... Those don't find their way into any of my guns, but the pistol FCD stays on my turret for the separate crimping operation.
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October 10, 2011, 11:04 AM | #43 |
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I guess I am just unsure what kind of mistakes it fixes.
Crumpled cases mean dies are not set up properly... and i doubt it will iron out a crumpled case.
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October 10, 2011, 07:51 PM | #44 | |
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A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. My experience is the carbide sizer doesn't touch the loaded rounds unless I've made a mistake somewhere alonng the line.
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October 10, 2011, 08:01 PM | #45 |
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I understand what you are saying, But WHAT possible mistakes could it fix? THIS is what I am asking.
Have you ever made a mistake?? If so I just want to know what it was and if the FCD fixed it. I am not trying to be a troll or a pain in the ***. Thanks.
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October 10, 2011, 10:21 PM | #46 | |
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I find it works great as a crimping die after the bullets have been seated in a previous operation. I have no intention of putting a "fixed" cartridge into any of my guns.
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October 11, 2011, 12:24 AM | #47 | ||||||||
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Wow! Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here
Remember, the greatest flare and the most crimp is applied at the case mouth. The base of the bullet is quite a bit further down in the case.
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I did once, and retired that box of brass. (Actually, jjust quit using it for lead bullets and used it only for jacketed, which did not bulge the case enough to require post-sizing.) Quote:
But your policy is valid, particularly for picky (in the good sense of the word) handloaders. If all your components are perfectly sized in every dimension and your dies all perfectly adjusted you should never have a mistake of any kind. The fact that perfection is hard to come by is only an excuse for accepting less-than-perfect handloads. For a perfectionist. For some of us who are willing to accept less-than perfect handloads, the ability to discern what makes a cartridge safe vs unsafe vs perfect is a valuable talent, which after a few years of loading, I think I have enough of. I try not to be cavalier about dangerous things, but I also try to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good (or good enough). If I have mis-stated my philosophy, I apologize. If my philosophy is off-base or dangerous, I will consider all criticism and advice. I REALLY do not want to blow myself up and recognize that I am not perfect all the time. Only some of the time Lost Sheep |
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October 11, 2011, 01:02 AM | #48 |
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I still think having a removable carbide sizer in the FCD will make everyone happy. Those that want to use it can use it with the sizing of their choice and those that don't want to use it can take out the sizer ring and have the option to taper crimp only separately.
Anyone else interested in a FCD with removable carbide sizer that can accept different diameter sizers? I think this would be THE 4th DIE TO HAVE in the deluxe 4 die set! |
October 11, 2011, 11:45 PM | #49 |
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I did buy the 4 die sets from Lee for pistol but usually load without the FCD most of the time. I do like to crimp seperate from seating so I use a Lee taper crimp die in the fourth station.
Size, Prime, Flare, Charge, Seat, then crimp with taper crimp die. |
October 12, 2011, 12:46 AM | #50 |
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Suppose we ask Lee?
OK, I say we call in the experts. I am sending an email to Lee Precision. Here is the text:
I have been reading and participating in a thread on the Forum "The Firing Line" and we have a question that could benefit from input from Lee Precision, if you would be willing to post directly to the thread or to give me something I could quote, please. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091 If you have the time to read the whole thread that would be nice. If not, I have attempted to summarize the main question as I understand the gist of the thread: What is the purpose of the post-sizing ring on the FCD? The discussion started on the FCD for taper crimping 9mm, but migrated to revolver rounds and autoloader rounds in general, also. So, a secondary question arose, Is the purpose of the post-sizing different for auto-loaders vs revolvers, depending on the headspacing method of the rounds (case mouth or rim)? Third question: Does Lee make (or could/would you make) an FCD that would have interchangeable post-sizing rings? The idea was proposed that post-sizing could be tailored to individual guns, as they require for reliable functioning. Thanks for helping out a bunch of guys who are thrashing around in the dark. I have a question of my own: If a loader were to use two Seat/Crimp dies (the first one to seat bullets without crimping, and the second one to crimp, but not seat the bullet any deeper), would that be essentially equivalent to using an FCD without the post-sizing carbide ring? Larry Schuller (Posting on the forum as Lost Sheep) |
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