The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 9, 2011, 05:29 PM   #26
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
How about FCD with replaceable sizer insert? This way you can use:

1. FCD without the carbide sizer (essentially a taper crimp die for separate seat/taper crimp operations)
2. FCD with smaller carbide sizer for smaller diameter jacketed/plated bullets (say for 9mm .355" sized bullets)
3. FCD with larger carbide sizer for larger diameter lead bullets (.356" sized bullets)
4. FCD with even larger carbide sizer for even larger diameter lead bullets for oversized barrels (say .357"-.358" sized bullets)

Do you think Lee would go for something like this?
BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 06:02 PM   #27
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
Taper crimp is a bad name for the operation that is occuring. It should be called flare or bell remover.

Roll crimp is a good name for what happens when you roll crimp.

I am not quite sure exactly what the "wrinkles" are that the FCD carbide ring "irons" out. Are the "wrinkles" from over belling the case mouth?

Maybe someone can help me because I am confused. Every case I have sent though my sizer die has ironed out any case imperfections or bulges. And if there are still any slightly out-of-round case mouths the flaring die fixes that.

Does the FCD carbide sizer ring size further down the case than the sizer die?

Someone please enlighten me.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 06:28 PM   #28
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,461
Quote:
Are the "wrinkles" from over belling the case mouth?
In my case, definitely not. The wrinkles are nowhere near the case mouth but the round appears to be a little oversized down near the case head, at least according to the changes made by the FCD.

Quote:
Does the FCD carbide sizer ring size further down the case than the sizer die?
In my experience, Yes! My FCD, in addition to crimping, typically applies a bit of reduction to the area of the case near the case head. This doesn't happen on all rounds, but I would say that it happens more often than not. Maybe those rounds are misshapen due to use in poorly supported chambers, I really can't say.

It's my belief that the sizer die does more to resize the round from the inside out, such as ironing out flat spots in the case mouth. In my experience I haven't seen it do much to the outside of the case.
spacecoast is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 08:23 PM   #29
CrustyFN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,258
Quote:
I cured it by running the cartridges through my sizing die.
Yes and I can understand the results you said you had also. I think what people fail to remember or don't understand in the first place is the FCD doesn't post size every round that goes through it, only one that is out of spec.

Quote:
It's kind of like a safety device that does not signal an alarm when it saves you.
Sure it does, you can feel it when it happens.

Quote:
I don't know what reloaders did before the FCD??!!
Same thing they did before they made powder cop and lock out dies.
__________________
I don't ever remember being absent minded.
CrustyFN is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 08:40 PM   #30
Chaz88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2010
Posts: 1,243
I have learned a lot from this thread. I learned to reload from my dad and we did not have anything like this. I got most of my equipment from him and never needed to buy any new dies tell a couple of years ago. The extra die option had me scratching my head as to what it was for. I kind of figured it out but you all have cleared it up for me much better. Thank you!
__________________
Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
Chaz88 is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 08:43 PM   #31
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
I don't think everyone here understands the post-sizing ring in the FCD is larger than the sizing ring in the size/decap die. It doesn't squeeze a proper size bullet causing the problems mentioned above.

You can, of course, set it up to crimp too much. But then you can do that with any crimp die.

It's never a good idea to run a loaded round into a sizing die as the problems mentioned above regarding bullet swaging can and will occur.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 9, 2011, 11:10 PM   #32
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
Came up with a suggestion for FCD post-sizing larger diameter lead bullets.
How about a removable carbide sizer ring that was used for Lee Speed Dies? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...16#post7642516

Can you imagine? Future 4 die sets with FCD and carbide sizer ring of choice. (Remove the carbide sizer ring to use it as a separate taper crimp die and screw in the different sizer ring to custom tailor your FCD!)


Factory Crimp Die on the left - Speed die on the right (note removable carbide sizer on the bottom):

BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 07:27 AM   #33
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
BDS-

What is the purpose of the larger carbide rings??? What will it do??? Keep from swaging lead bullets?? I can guarantee as long as your sizer die is set up properly that the enlarged carbide ring will never touch the case. The die will only apply a taper crimp....and you can do this with the seating die.

As stated above the carbide ring on the sizer die is SMALLER than the carbide ring on the FCD.

In conclusion:

I guess it just comes down to whatever works for you. If it works, use it. I, fortunately, have never found a use for it.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 08:19 AM   #34
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter
BDS-What is the purpose of the larger carbide rings?
There are those that use larger diameter lead bullets for oversized factory barrels.

For 9mm, .355" groove diameter barrels will properly fit a .356" sized lead bullets. But many factory barrels are oversized at .356", .357" or even .358". Some will shoot .357"/.358" sized lead bullets for proper bullet-to-barrel fit to reduce leading in the barrel.

larger carbide sizer rings will allow for larger diameter lead bullets and eliminate post-sizing of the bullets which contribute to leading problem.

I believe the carbide sizer ring that comes with the FCD was meant for the typical jacketed diameter bullets. If Lee were to modify the FCD with removable sizer ring, larger diameter sizer rings can be offered for larger diameter lead bullets.

Last edited by BDS-THR; October 10, 2011 at 08:24 AM.
BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 08:28 AM   #35
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
I don't know if Lee could use a larger ring in the FCD. The one that's in there is probably just under SAAMI minimum chamber specs.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 08:35 AM   #36
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
BDS - I understand 100% what you are saying. I use .358" cast boolits in 9mm. So say if I had a carbide ring measuring .359" + the thickness of the brass at the case mouth ( x2), what would that accomplish? The sizer die has already sized the brass back to spec. Just not sure what the carbide ring would do. Thanks.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 09:15 AM   #37
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
Actually, I use .020" added to the diameter of the bullet (.010" average thickness of brass case wall thickness) to determine my taper crimp. So .358" diameter lead bullet will require .378" taper crimp to not post-size the bullet (I believe the SAAMI max is .380" at the case neck and taper out to .3811").

I am sure someone else could better explain the original intent of the FCD.

My understanding of the carbide sizer in the FCD was to remove the slight bulge that seating of bullets produced so the finished cases looked flat. While this works fine for jacketed diameter bullets, it will post-size larger diameter lead bullets. Does anyone even know whether Lee ever meant the FCD to be used for larger diameter lead bullets? My sentiment is that it was only meant for jacketed diameter bullets.

If FCD had removable carbide sizer like the Speed Die, one could get the right diameter sizer to remove this bullet seating bulge without post-sizing the lead bullet to the point of affecting bullet-to-barrel fit.
BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 09:31 AM   #38
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
That seating "bulge" is there for a reason...it provides needed tension to hold the bullet so there is no setback when chambering (on auto loading pistols).

If you are getting excessive "bulging" to the point where the rounds won't chamber, then your flaring die is not set up properly.

Generally, when shooting lead boolits, the case bulge is more dramatic.

Just for clarification, I am calling the case "bulge" the part of the brass that is slightly bulged out after seating a bullet in the case.

Eliminating this case bulge will inadvertently swage the bullet down and leave less case neck tension, which can lead to big problems with bullet setback.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 09:42 AM   #39
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Generally, when shooting lead boolits, the case bulge is more dramatic.

Just for clarification, I am calling the case "bulge" the part of the brass that is slightly bulged out after seating a bullet in the case.

Eliminating this case bulge will inadvertently swage the bullet down and leave less case neck tension, which can lead to big problems with bullet setback.
Bingo! Hence my contention for post-sizing of lead bullets by FCD carbide sizer ring.
BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 09:46 AM   #40
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
I don't know about oversize bullets, but it doesn't touch the brass when I load .358 cast bullets in .38/357 or .452-.454 cast bullets in .45 Colt.

They still sport the seating bulge after going through the FCD.

I agree that ironing that bulge out would cause problems. It's just that the FCD doesn't do that. At least none of mine do.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 10:25 AM   #41
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Bingo! Hence my contention for post-sizing of lead bullets by FCD carbide sizer ring.
You DON'T want to post size lead bullets. The case bulge does NOT affect function of the pistol. Post sizing would swage bullets down, thus causing them to not fit your bore properly.

Quote:
I don't know about oversize bullets, but it doesn't touch the brass when I load .358 cast bullets in .38/357 or .452-.454 cast bullets in .45 Colt.
PRECISELY! Then what is the carbide ring for??
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 10:53 AM   #42
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
Quote:
Then what is the carbide ring for??
It irons out mistakes. If the case was crumpled or something it will be sized enough to fit into the chamber.

It doesn't correct mistakes, it just makes sure the cartridge will fit in the chamber....

Those don't find their way into any of my guns, but the pistol FCD stays on my turret for the separate crimping operation.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 11:04 AM   #43
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
I guess I am just unsure what kind of mistakes it fixes.

Crumpled cases mean dies are not set up properly... and i doubt it will iron out a crumpled case.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 07:51 PM   #44
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
Quote:
It doesn't correct mistakes, it just makes sure the cartridge will fit in the chamber....
See the quote above. I don't claim they fix any mistake. I don't think Lee makes any such claim either. What they say is:

A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability.

My experience is the carbide sizer doesn't touch the loaded rounds unless I've made a mistake somewhere alonng the line.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 08:01 PM   #45
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,527
I understand what you are saying, But WHAT possible mistakes could it fix? THIS is what I am asking.

Have you ever made a mistake?? If so I just want to know what it was and if the FCD fixed it. I am not trying to be a troll or a pain in the ***. Thanks.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old October 10, 2011, 10:21 PM   #46
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
Quote:
But WHAT possible mistakes could it fix?
We seem to be in a do-loop here. I keep saying it doesn't fix mistakes and you keep asking what mistakes it fixes.

I find it works great as a crimping die after the bullets have been seated in a previous operation. I have no intention of putting a "fixed" cartridge into any of my guns.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 11, 2011, 12:24 AM   #47
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 3,341
Wow! Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here

Remember, the greatest flare and the most crimp is applied at the case mouth. The base of the bullet is quite a bit further down in the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter
BDS-

What is the purpose of the larger carbide rings??? What will it do??? Keep from swaging lead bullets?? I can guarantee as long as your sizer die is set up properly that the enlarged carbide ring will never touch the case. The die will only apply a taper crimp....and you can do this with the seating die.

As stated above the carbide ring on the sizer die is SMALLER than the carbide ring on the FCD.

In conclusion:

I guess it just comes down to whatever works for you. If it works, use it. I, fortunately, have never found a use for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by llinoisCoyoteHunter
That seating "bulge" is there for a reason...it provides needed tension to hold the bullet so there is no setback when chambering (on auto loading pistols).
Yes indeed. I agree completely. The case tension is applied by the "springiness" of the brass stretched over the bullet and gripping it with friction (and sometimes crimp, particularly for rimmed cases, but just a little with rimless cases sometimes. but a straight crimp)
Quote:
Originally Posted by llinoisCoyoteHunter
If you are getting excessive "bulging" to the point where the rounds won't chamber, then your flaring die is not set up properly.
I will admit the possibility, but in the 50 examples I observed, it appeared to have nothing to do with flaring and everything to do with the sum of the bullet diameter and case wall thickness. Though I had only been loading for a year or so I examined them closely and that is what I concluded.

Quote:
Generally, when shooting lead boolits, the case bulge is more dramatic.

Just for clarification, I am calling the case "bulge" the part of the brass that is slightly bulged out after seating a bullet in the case.

Eliminating this case bulge will inadvertently swage the bullet down and leave less case neck tension, which can lead to big problems with bullet setback. .
In taper crimps, yes, but in roll crimps, not so much. But you are absolutely correct about swaging the bullet down. Hence the bullet spinning I observed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport45

I don't know about oversize bullets, but it doesn't touch the brass when I load .358 cast bullets in .38/357 or .452-.454 cast bullets in .45 Colt.

They still sport the seating bulge after going through the FCD.

I agree that ironing that bulge out would cause problems. It's just that the FCD doesn't do that. At least none of mine do.
I suppose that is because you only size down those that are too big. A little seating bulge is OK, but if you have tight chambers (as I did) combined with thick chamber walls, you might find a use for the post-sizing. Until that day, count your blessings. You have not needed your safety net.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter
I understand what you are saying, But WHAT possible mistakes could it fix? THIS is what I am asking.

Have you ever made a mistake?? If so I just want to know what it was and if the FCD fixed it. I am not trying to be a troll or a pain in the ***. Thanks.
Some people are lucky enough, or buy properly sized components that they don't ever experience the need for a "fix". Others, not so much.

I did once, and retired that box of brass. (Actually, jjust quit using it for lead bullets and used it only for jacketed, which did not bulge the case enough to require post-sizing.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport45
Quote:
But WHAT possible mistakes could it fix?
We seem to be in a do-loop here. I keep saying it doesn't fix mistakes and you keep asking what mistakes it fixes.
I find it works great as a crimping die after the bullets have been seated in a previous operation. I have no intention of putting a "fixed" cartridge into any of my guns.
A good policy. But you know, every reloaded cartridge is "fixed" in one sense or another.

But your policy is valid, particularly for picky (in the good sense of the word) handloaders. If all your components are perfectly sized in every dimension and your dies all perfectly adjusted you should never have a mistake of any kind.

The fact that perfection is hard to come by is only an excuse for accepting less-than-perfect handloads. For a perfectionist.

For some of us who are willing to accept less-than perfect handloads, the ability to discern what makes a cartridge safe vs unsafe vs perfect is a valuable talent, which after a few years of loading, I think I have enough of. I try not to be cavalier about dangerous things, but I also try to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good (or good enough).

If I have mis-stated my philosophy, I apologize. If my philosophy is off-base or dangerous, I will consider all criticism and advice. I REALLY do not want to blow myself up and recognize that I am not perfect all the time. Only some of the time

Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old October 11, 2011, 01:02 AM   #48
BDS-THR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 479
I still think having a removable carbide sizer in the FCD will make everyone happy. Those that want to use it can use it with the sizing of their choice and those that don't want to use it can take out the sizer ring and have the option to taper crimp only separately.

Anyone else interested in a FCD with removable carbide sizer that can accept different diameter sizers?

I think this would be THE 4th DIE TO HAVE in the deluxe 4 die set!
BDS-THR is offline  
Old October 11, 2011, 11:45 PM   #49
hk33ka1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2010
Posts: 275
I did buy the 4 die sets from Lee for pistol but usually load without the FCD most of the time. I do like to crimp seperate from seating so I use a Lee taper crimp die in the fourth station.

Size, Prime, Flare, Charge, Seat, then crimp with taper crimp die.
hk33ka1 is offline  
Old October 12, 2011, 12:46 AM   #50
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 3,341
Suppose we ask Lee?

OK, I say we call in the experts. I am sending an email to Lee Precision. Here is the text:




I have been reading and participating in a thread on the Forum "The Firing Line" and we have a question that could benefit from input from Lee Precision, if you would be willing to post directly to the thread or to give me something I could quote, please.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091

If you have the time to read the whole thread that would be nice. If not, I have attempted to summarize the main question as I understand the gist of the thread:

What is the purpose of the post-sizing ring on the FCD?

The discussion started on the FCD for taper crimping 9mm, but migrated to revolver rounds and autoloader rounds in general, also. So, a secondary question arose, Is the purpose of the post-sizing different for auto-loaders vs revolvers, depending on the headspacing method of the rounds (case mouth or rim)?

Third question: Does Lee make (or could/would you make) an FCD that would have interchangeable post-sizing rings? The idea was proposed that post-sizing could be tailored to individual guns, as they require for reliable functioning.

Thanks for helping out a bunch of guys who are thrashing around in the dark.

I have a question of my own: If a loader were to use two Seat/Crimp dies (the first one to seat bullets without crimping, and the second one to crimp, but not seat the bullet any deeper), would that be essentially equivalent to using an FCD without the post-sizing carbide ring?

Larry Schuller (Posting on the forum as Lost Sheep)
Lost Sheep is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.14024 seconds with 8 queries