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Old May 4, 2006, 10:45 PM   #1
Radiki
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Shooting and Moving Practice-- In your house

Okay, So I am working out the other day and I am running on my treadmill in my basement. Normally, I have the TV on but there was nothing on so really, I am getting bored. But getting in shape isn't always exciting. Anyways, I had a thought. I got an airsoft gun and set up some targets and put a bunch of ammo next to the treadmill. I put the targets both in front of me and off to the side. So I start trying to hit these. Let me tell you. That is a lot harder than it would seem. I am pretty sure that in real life if I had to hit something that was moving while I was moving, I probably would not hit it. My basement is pretty big so the targets were between 5-20 feet away. When I was walking or jogging slowly, I averaged I say about 55%-60% hit on a 10" target- worse off to the side maybe 35%-40%. But when I was running that dropped to probably less than ten percent. These were also stationary targets and I knew where they were and I was taking time in between shots. I want to try to make a contraption that swings or something. I know this isn't a perfect scenario, But since I don't really have any place near me to shoot other than at stationary ranges, this is probably the best I can do right now. Anyways.. REALLY hard. Anyone else ever try something like this? --- The downside, little yellow pellets, everywhere.
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Old May 5, 2006, 10:39 AM   #2
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Quote:
I am pretty sure that in real life if I had to hit something that was moving while I was moving, I probably would not hit it.
REALLY hard.
You're exactly right on, but......

There are a couple of experts who claim to have mastered the tactic of pistol shooting and 'hitting' on the run. Of course, that's shooting at known, stationary paper targets.
For 4 or 5 hundred bucks you too can study the run and shoot at the stationary paper target tactic. :)))

My own experiences tell me that it is nearly impossible to hit a threat while on the run.......and especially, if being shot at.

'Run and shoot' is hardly an offensive tactic and barely defensive.
It's best purpose is to make some noise while seeking cover....and we all can do that.


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Old May 5, 2006, 03:45 PM   #3
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seem like a good idea, any means of practise is good in my books.
keep at it, let us know if you get any better!
and also try get that moving target up, that would be fun!
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Old May 5, 2006, 09:49 PM   #4
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Thanks for the plug skyguy

We do teach shooting on the run, it was borne out of FOF, where both adversaries engaged each other at a full run. We know exactly what needs to be done to get hits in the most dynamic of encounters. Not only can we do it....we can teach you to do it. As it stands we are doing live fire courses and have not started teaching FOF......but it is an inevitable evolution.

The course reviews are coming in and we deliver exactly what we say we will. If not, we would be dead before we even got started. Our students are getting hits on the average of 95% of the time, at a full run, in all directions.

Shooting on the run is a threat focused skill (only.) If you are trying to do this with sighted fire you will not get there. This is why almost everyone says that it is not possible.

The phrase "you can not get there from here" comes to mind. Don't just believe me.....look at what our students are saying.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=223

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=226

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=255

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=305
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Old May 6, 2006, 12:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
We do teach shooting on the run, it was borne out of FOF, where both adversaries engaged each other at a full run. We know exactly what needs to be done to get hits in the most dynamic of encounters.
I'll assume that you already know that FOF training does 'not' prepare one for the sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications that appear when someone is scared to death.
It may teach technique/tactics, but it cannot duplicate real life fear; screaming out loud-scared to death fear.

Although better than doing nothing, 'run and shoot' is quite an anemic offensive/defensive tactic. It's best use is to make noise while seeking cover.
And I mean that.

So hey, make a few bucks and have some fun with the run and shoot game.
Even amuse with a little quick draw. :)
But remember that it's only a game....a game that Joe Average will probably 'never' have any practical use for.

Remember too, that most potentially lethal situations occur at very close distances....touching distance. Like when opening your car door in a darkened parking lot.
And because of that reality, I believe that learning some basic HTH empty hand skills....regardless of one's physical limits....would be a much better use of one's training time.
.
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Old May 6, 2006, 06:32 PM   #6
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Another satisfied customer able to do what almost everyone says is impossible. Threat Focus skills must be to the level of "absolute confidence" to reach this plateau.

Radiki, get yourself a copy of "Kill or Get Killed." Read it, practice it. Try it on the tread mill and let us know about your improvement.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=312
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Old May 6, 2006, 06:48 PM   #7
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I guarantee, if I shot in the house, my wife would definately have me moving!
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Old May 7, 2006, 08:50 PM   #8
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WC, check out this site. Airsofts are great training tools. The KWA G19 has proven itself to be one of the best choices, but shoot what you carry.
http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/gas.htm

New AAR from another customer that made the hits on a full run.

Great quote here,
Quote:
The second day concentrated on movement -- or perhaps sprinting is more accurate. Because of the emphasis placed on skill mastery, the class did not progress until every single member of the class, without fail, could perform the techniques while getting center mass hits on the target. I commented to one of the guys that when the movement drills commenced, the subject of sights was no longer a consideration; everyone simply forgot about them. He agreed.


http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=313
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Old May 8, 2006, 05:46 AM   #9
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Skyguy,

Quote:
Although better than doing nothing, 'run and shoot' is quite an anemic offensive/defensive tactic. It's best use is to make noise while seeking cover.
And I mean that.
????????????? S'n'B is telling you that it is possible to hit while moving, using the bodies nature instinct to flee, yet ingraining the skills to engage while fleeing. This type of training should further reduce the effects of fear of death stress. It allows you to flee a natural instinct when startled or scared. It imparts movement, making you harder to hit. It gains distance between you and the threat. If it works and hits can be made, only a fool would ignore the benefits it would give them.

The alternative is to crouch and fire while preparing to be killed and who in their right mind would want that?
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Old May 8, 2006, 08:24 AM   #10
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I trust that you didn't leave those little yellow pellets for your wife to clean up?

That sounds like a great practice setup. Let us know if it works and your accuracy improves.

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Old May 8, 2006, 09:08 AM   #11
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I forgot to mention "Shooting to Live" as a must read book on this topic. It is only the basics of FAS threat focused shoooting, but it will raise your hit rate around 50%.

For the 95-100% rate you are simply going to have to train with people that know all of the factors in the equation of shooting on the run. But understanding the basics and seeing your improvement will possibly wet your appetite enough to seek out the full knowledge.

Lots or courses coming up, we got Knoxville, Houston, Vegas, Phoenix, and Shreveport Louisiana.
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Old May 8, 2006, 10:49 AM   #12
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Threegun,

Although I seriously doubt both you and SNB's knowledge and experience at firefights against living, moving, intelligent, thinking human beings who are trying to kill you.....I am 'not' mocking the concept of running and shooting. It's as old as the hills and does serve a limited purpose.

If you guys want to pay for and train at that, I think it's great.
But, there is a very limited value to 'run' and shoot and there is an even more limited number of people who can adequately employ that tactic.
Most people are not spec ops or Seals. They're just regular guys and gals.
If one does need to 'move' and shoot it most likely will be laterally or rearward. Train at that...most ninjas already do. And try not to trip and fall.

In my opinion, the money and time spent on learning to run while shooting would be better spent on touching distance, empty handed self defense.
Considering the distance, close up encounters are many times more likely to happen and are a lot more dangerous than run and shoot situations.

Run and shoot is a great game, lotsa fun, an outlet for training addicts and a source of income for its instructors. But it's way down the 'tool' list for civilian self defense.

The best real life use of run and shoot is to 'make noise while seeking cover'. And I can teach you to do that for free. :)
.
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Old May 8, 2006, 11:49 PM   #13
Sweatnbullets
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Here we go again!

The Advanced Quick Kill course is just one of the course that we offer. Shooting on the run is just a small portion of the course.

We teach our students every aspect of threat focused shooting. We bring them to the level of "absolute confidence" where these skills can be taken to the most dynamic of encounters. We can bring our students to a level that almost everyone thinks is impossible, in a very short amount of time.

We also teach WWII combatives, stick, knife, integration of H2H with the gun, and rifle Quick Kill. Shooting on the run is only a small part of what we have to offer. Since no one else is offering this type of training (shooting on the run) it is what the students (which happen to be LEO, military, firearm instructors, and civilian) want. They want it because they can not get that tool anywhere else.

Why is it that some people believe that they know what everyone else should be training in and what tool they need to work on? I tend to let my students decide what is best for them, because anything else would go under the character flaw of "not minding my own business."

Here is another training method for inside the house. Take your airsoft gun and a heavy bag. Wrap butcher paper around the heavy bag. Use the heavy bag as a three dimensional target, the butcher paper will mark your hits with the airsoft gun.

Work the heavy bag with movement from all directions.

Work on acquiring the flanks.

Take off the paper and integrate H2H work with the use of your airsoft gun.
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Old May 9, 2006, 04:34 PM   #14
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Skyguy,

Quote:
But, there is a very limited value to 'run' and shoot
Yet most firearms instructors teach shooting on the move.

Quote:
there is an even more limited number of people who can adequately employ that tactic.
Most people are not spec ops or Seals. They're just regular guys and gals.
So hand 2 hand training that you suggested is somehow manageable by those not able to move.

If you can't run, walk fast. The point is that movement while shooting and hitting is better than crouching while shooting and hitting. The reason is that the movement makes you harder to hit by the bad guy. That is my opinion and I'm sure S'n'B feels the same. If I magically know in advance that if I crouched and shot, none of the bad guys bullets would hit me then I would use your method. Since that is not possible and movement equals safety (on the average), I will move whenever possible at whatever speed possible.
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Old May 9, 2006, 05:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyguy
I'll assume that you already know that FOF training does 'not' prepare one for the sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications that appear when someone is scared to death.
It may teach technique/tactics, but it cannot duplicate real life fear; screaming out loud-scared to death fear.
While I have never been in a SHTF (*%^$ hits the fan) scenario, I feel training would greatly offset the sheer panic and freeze up reaction. While a one time course would not offer this, routine practice would help to engrain these techniques, and become the default reaction. Even if your hit percentage goes way down while moving, you would be much harder to hit since you are moving. If your hit percentage was much greater than your opponent on the move, it reasons to believe that you stand a much better chance of hitting your opponent and not getting hit yourself. Then again, you could both miss until you empty your guns and then pistol whip each other silly. In that case, your hand to hand combat skills would come into play. Don't forget that even a lucky shot will kill you or greatly hinder your ability to fight back. I say why not do all we can to ensure we survive an armed conflict. Either that or lay down some ground rules before the shooting starts and tell the other guy that he is not allowed to shoot on the move.
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Old May 10, 2006, 11:00 PM   #16
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Some people believe that "movement equals safety".

Well, not always. The closer the armed threats are to each other, the greater the chance of mutual wounding or death.....whether one or both are moving or not.

As I've said before, there are times to move/run and there are times to stand and shoot. Both are shown in the following video.
Even though the BG is moving/running and ducking, he still gets shot 3 times by the non-moving shooter.
There's something to be learned there.

This video has been around, but it does prove that movement does not necessarily "equal safety".

http://www.break.com/index/robberyontape.html
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Old May 10, 2006, 11:47 PM   #17
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That would be running away, without firing a shot. That is what skyguy suggests as being the best method. I on the other hand disagree.

I have the ability to make hits at a full run and I can teach anyone else to do it. The close minded and uneducated can keep saying it is impossible. The rest of you can read the review of our courses.

We have 20 students lined up for Knoxville at the end of the month....more positive reviews are on the way.

For the sight only guys out there, here is another in house drill.

Sighted shots require controlled movement. The movement will have to be smoothed out and slowed down. The trick is the use the old Groucho/duck walk. The knees should be bent, the rear end should be lowered. Roll on the feet....heel toe...heel toe. This controlled movement can be taken up to a slow run where both feet are off the ground at the same time.

The trick is to find the perfect pace for you....personally. Here is how to find that perfect pace and find out your speed limitations. Use your airsoft or an UNLOADED DA revolver. Get your perfect sight picture and begin your movement. You must move in such a way as to keep that sight picture. Each time you press the trigger you should be able to call that shot as a hit. Start with slow movement and then increase the speed more and more each time. Make sure that your are smoothing the movement out as much as posssible and can keep the sight picture on the target.

You should be able to work this up to the speed of a slow smoothed out run.

This would be the limits of your "controlled movement." To get past this limit you will have to learn threat focused skills.
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Old May 10, 2006, 11:49 PM   #18
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This is what I believe

Fluid Situational Response

In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.
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Old May 10, 2006, 11:59 PM   #19
Sweatnbullets
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The last time that video came up in a movement thread, the thread was locked. If we get off topic due to that video again, this one will be locked also.

This is about in home movement drills.... lets try to stay on topic.
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Old May 11, 2006, 12:23 AM   #20
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A better discussion of this topic can be found here.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=1684360
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Old May 11, 2006, 11:22 AM   #21
Skyguy
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Quote:
That would be running away, without firing a shot. That is what skyguy suggests as being the best method. I on the other hand disagree
Correction. I never said that.
My exact words were: "As I've said before, there are times to move/run and there are times to stand and shoot."

As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.

And for the record: As a proud Sky Soldier, I can hardly disagree with most of your commonly held shootout tactics or even your gun games, but.........as an instructor, you fail to address some important qualifiers.

1. Distance, which controls the tactic.
2. A moving, thinking, shooting opponent.
3. The sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications.
4. The age and physical condition of the actors.

Get busy on that! :)
.
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Old May 11, 2006, 12:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
. My basement is pretty big so the targets were between 5-20 feet away. When I was walking or jogging slowly, I averaged I say about 55%-60% hit on a 10" target- worse off to the side maybe 35%-40%. But when I was running that dropped to probably less than ten percent. These were also stationary targets and I knew where they were and I was taking time in between shots. I want to try to make a contraption that swings or something
I believe it was the match before last at the local IDPA club where we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move. There were lots of -1s and -3s, but I don't believe anyone actually got a FTN. I think most people even hit it with all 3 rounds.

It's not easy, but it is doable with a bit of practice.
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Old May 11, 2006, 01:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move.
Curious here.

What was the speed of.....and distance to the target? And what was the prescribed movement? Forward, laterally, angled, pursuit, retreat, etc.

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Old May 11, 2006, 01:41 PM   #24
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The speed of the cart matched the speed of the shooter. Most took it at a moderate-to-fast walk. Anyone who failed to move and shoot (ie, stopping for a shot) was given a PE. Distance was maybe 21 feet. to the target. Movement was angled away from the shooter in the same direction.

It was a fun stage. Movers usually are.
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Old May 11, 2006, 03:35 PM   #25
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Skyguy,

Quote:
As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.
For starters you are well aware that my position is to move while engaging the bad guy. I had never even considered giving my back to the bad guy until S'n'B described his technique. The bank video is not proof that movement doesn't equals safety rather it is proof that failing to place your opponent under duress makes him shoot like Wild Bill.

When your number is called you crouch and fire and hope for mutual wounding or death. I'm gonna retreat/move to cover while engaging the threat just like I have trained. If I ever get to S'n'B's class maybe I will run like a Ethiopian duck while shooting LOL. Bottom line is I ain't standing still while rounds are incoming (unless behind cover of course) that just isn't logical.
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