accurate 9mm 147 grain load?

max it · July 18, 2012, 05:40 PM

hi Ya,

I am not satisfied with my 4.3gn of Power Pistol in front of 147 moly coated lead truncated cone bullet as far as accuracy is concerned. I shoot a xd9-tactical gun for steel madness and it seems a bit too loose at over 35 yards. What do you have and from what source?
I prefer lots of powder so I can keep an eye on it while loading.

much obliged,

Max

oldreloader · July 18, 2012, 10:12 PM

I use 3.0 gr Bullseye, 3.3 gr HP 38, or 4.5 gr AA#5 with MBC 147 gr lead bullets.

tkglazie · July 19, 2012, 01:06 PM

3.3-3.4gr N320 works well for me. Very little flip, nice gentle "push" recoil. 900fps. That's a .43 disk if you use a Lee Auto-Disk.

This is not a lot of powder though. I think a double charge would just barely overflow the case.

TATER · July 19, 2012, 01:41 PM

Shooting 6" steel plates at 25 yd.
For use in my Sig_228 and HK-P7
147 JHP and 5.5 Blue DOT. Just at 850-900 fps and Very accurate

slugoo · July 20, 2012, 05:02 PM

I'll second Bullseye and aa#5 as my best for 147 9mm. I also have real good shooting with 3.9 of power pistol, when I go above 3.9 I loose accuracy. Charlie

Skimp · July 20, 2012, 05:20 PM

All my shooting with the 9mm 147 grain will be within 21 feet, and its fairly accurate at that distance.

max it · July 20, 2012, 06:08 PM

hi Charlie,

wow, that's a simple fix.

much obliged,

max

max it · July 21, 2012, 07:24 PM

hi Glazie,
I just had a shooter recommend titegroup. I was told that and N320 are basically same. titegroup is smoky but cheap. since I shoot over 600 month i like cheap.

much obliged,

max

max it · November 8, 2012, 01:12 PM

HI Ya Guys, still having trouble. First I found that my XD-Tac was having accuracy probs. so i sent it to S'pgfield who 'fixed' it but didnt tell me what.
Next I got so far from whatever good load i was using i cant find my way back.
Now I bought N-320 but it doesnt cycle; so today I lower the spring weight and see. also i accidently loaded 50 rounds of N320 to 5grains, i am afraid to put these in a gun as 3.9 is the highest load i see published. I tried PP but I got keyholing. I went back to Red Dot and it works but not great accuracy. and finally i tried wSF 4.3gns works best; i ran out of this one.
trials and tribulation,

Max

Jim Watson · November 8, 2012, 01:21 PM

I'd try a different bullet.
I think changing powders is for fine tuning, not for trying to make a marginal combination of gun and bullet work at all.

max it · November 8, 2012, 04:02 PM

Hi Jim,

Weeel, I have 4,000 147gn molys in stock. And I have 500 147gn copper jacketed.
1. the change of bullet didnt do it. Actually the moly coated lead was more accurate
2. I have over 15,000 lead bullets down range thru this gun. the first 14,000 were my own cast 147's. But due to blood lead levels I quit casting and sold 750# of lead to my bullet supplier and got the 4,000 plus some .45's and .38's.
I just got back from the range; the N320 doesnt do it at all. at 23yards I get inaccuracy, keyholing, and ftfeed.
Later today, after i lick my wounds I am going to try '231'.
one thought, I had expected that I had info on what worked before but I dont.

much obliged,

Max

tkglazie · November 8, 2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max it

hi Glazie,
I just had a shooter recommend titegroup. I was told that and N320 are basically same. titegroup is smoky but cheap. since I shoot over 600 month i like cheap.

much obliged,

max

very interesting, I had not heard that. I just stocked up on 4lbs of n320 but I will keep it in mind when I get low.

I will say that at over 2000 rounds per pound the extra cost of n320 is spread out nicely at least. It is pricey though. I think I paid $24/lbs from PV plus shipping (part of a big order so the hazmat was spread out at least)

max it · November 8, 2012, 07:03 PM

HI Ya Glazie,
I bought 1lb of N320 thinking as you do that over so many bullets it is cheap enough. But for whatever reason I cant get it to work right. I have tried every load from 2.5 to 3.9grains. I have adjusted the seating; albeit I cant go the 1.169" as it is too long in my xd-tac. and all i get is fail to feed even with lowering the recoil spring first from 17 to 16 to 15 to 14. and no decent accuracy. i just loaded the hopper with '231' to see where that gets me.
Much obliged,

Max

tkglazie · November 8, 2012, 07:25 PM

you will definitely find something that works for you with w231. what a great powder.

g.willikers · November 8, 2012, 07:35 PM

Ditto on 231.
For years, my standard go to load was the 147 locally made, hard lead TC, sized .357, over enough 231 to get around 1050 f/s.
Sometimes more, if there were full sized poppers involved.
It was the most accurate load I ever found, not only in my gun, but everyone's who tried it.

RC20 · November 8, 2012, 11:40 PM

HS6 is worth a try.

However, I tried some of the commercial hard cast bullets (120 gr) and they gave much poorer resutls than the XTPs I was using.

As this was in a Sig with a reputation for being caliber correct (not loose require larger bullets) I am not sure the hard cast is the right answer in 9mm

Going to large diameter bullet (oversize as it were) is a possibility to try to tighten things up

As it stands the leads will be for my fast fire work and I will continue to look for something less expensive for good target

note: By far the best has been the Remington Golden Saber commercial (even over the XTP hand loads), those are true tack drivers. When I get done with the target laser, I put on the HD laser and fire a round to check. Right into the center of the 1 inch black at 15 yars every time.

max it · November 9, 2012, 08:38 AM

HI RC, It sounds like you are loading and shooting for SD
I am shooting for Tactical Sport with Steel Targets that fall.
I appreciate the input but I fire around 600 at a minimum per month; lead is cheap and has been accurate in this gun for 15,000 rounds before it all went south.
I am following what the 2 guys above said about 231 today, my gunny said the same. Let's see. Meanwhile many thanks to all.

Much obliged,

Max

justsoIcanupvotethis · November 9, 2012, 11:39 AM

Have you tried Unique? I am pretty impressed with how the 4.3 grains of Unique worked with Rainiers 147 grain hollow points for me with my Ruger P89. That is straight from Alliants web site.

max it · November 9, 2012, 07:02 PM

2.8 Bullseye works fine; I think I will go to 3.2 just for the fun of it.
Much obliged to all,

Max

Gerry · November 10, 2012, 10:42 AM

Quote:

I was told that and N320 are basically same.

They are not the same. The only thing these powders have in common is that they're fairly fast burning. However Titegroup is faster, somewhere between N310 and N320. Titegroup burns much hotter, is smokier, and is said to be temperature sensitive while N320 is not. N320 is a single base powder. Titegroup is a double base powder. They have completely different shapes - Titegroup is spherical, N320 extruded. They are manufactured by different companies in different areas of the earth and sell for different prices. Finally, the load data for these powders are NOT interchangeable. When it comes to reloading, it's best to stick with the manufacturer's reloading data and reliable third party manuals.

On the original topic, a common source of keyholing comes from accidentally swagging lead bullets during the crimping operation. This of course will affect how it engages the rifling and stabilizes the bullet. Another common source is a really dirty (leaded) barrel where little rifling remains useable for engagement. Gas cutting with too small a bullet is also a major cause of keyholing, which tends to lead the barrel too, thus making the keyholing more common as the shooting session continues.

max it · November 10, 2012, 12:19 PM

Gerry, swaging the moly coated lead too much rings a bell. I am going to open one or two and look.

OK one hour later; 60 good primed cases and seperated 147gn moly coated luger bullets, no swaging. I will have to loook elsewhere:
A.My guns? XD9-Tactical, and CZ75 SA, both made in Chech' maybe smaller barrels? I have slugged the XD and it is .3545". The CZ75 is in with the gunny getting a comp hammer.
B. No leading, I even use Butch's Bore Cleaner and JB too.
C. what was that? small bullets, mine are .359" same as when I cast them before and didnt get keyholes. I was using more Red Dot, not N-320 or Power Pistol or wSF.

Much obliged,

Max It

Gerry · November 10, 2012, 05:02 PM

Well max it, use Red Dot then

In all seriousness, I think powder can affect bullet stability to some degree - like trying to use too slow or fast a powder for a specific application. But many of the top Production IPSC grand masters are shooting all A's with 147gr bullets driven by powders like N320 without keyholing. And this is with CZs too, like the Shadow.

I can't see keyholing caused by too small a barrel for the size of bullet. It's usually the opposite. I'm shooting .358" home cast bullets, but lubed the ol'fashioned way in the lube groove. Another possibility is that you're just using too light a charge for the particular powder you're trying out. I suggest using a chrono to develop your loads if you aren't already. A charge good enough to at least make 125 to 130 power factor doesn't keyhole if all other factors are good.

The physics are pretty simple. You need the bullet to engage the rifling in order to spin the bullet to stabilize itself during its journey to the target - just like throwing a football. Sometimes bullet designs are just silly and don't have enough surface (driving) area to engage the rifling to the degree required. Multiple lube grooves on small 9mm bullets fall into this category.

Good luck, but in the end just do whatever works for you. Experimentation is one of the most rewarding aspects of this hobby & sport.

Beans · November 11, 2012, 08:23 AM

I am using 3.0 grains of bullseye, WSP primers ,mixed brass and a 147 TC Cast bullet in my S&W 1911 Pro 9mm.
The bullets are home cast using wheel weights and 2% tin.
This load will hold 80% of the 10 ring and 100% of the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 50 yards. this was a 10 shot groups. It was repeated several times to elimate a fluke group

I tested it by shooting it hand held off a bench with my wrists resting on a sandbag. If you are intrested the power facor is 130.

tkglazie · November 11, 2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beans

I am using 3.0 grains of bullseye, WSP primers ,mixed brass and a 147 TC Cast bullet in my S&W 1911 Pro 9mm.
The bullets are home cast using wheel weights and 2% tin.
This load will hold 80% of the 10 ring and 100% of the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 50 yards. this was a 10 shot groups. It was repeated several times to elimate a fluke group

I tested it by shooting it hand held off a bench with my wrists resting on a sandbag. If you are intrested the power facor is 130.

amazing. am I correct in assuming you have an optic mounted on your 1911? if so; which one, and how?

max it · November 12, 2012, 04:40 PM

Hi Ya, I resluged the barrel of my XD and found it still .355"
but the bullseye load is still keyholing; this time i used the moly coate 147gn with 3.2gn bullseye 1.058" oal. and for good measure I loaded some 130gn truncated cone moly coated .358" called .38cal bullets together with 3.6gn of Bullseye seated at 1.10"oal just for fun.
The first one, keyholed at 20 yards and beyond. the second one was no more accurate which is about 10" spread at 23 yards, so no brass ring there either.
I think I am going to take Gerry's wized advise and go back to the begining; Red Dot. Before I do that I will try the bullseye with some Copper plated 147gn I bought.
Much obliged,

Max
p.s. did the 3.6gn Bullseye, plated 147gn seems better. I will go with it for the competition on Sunday. Let's see if it knocks down some steel.

MI

July 18, 2012, 05:40 PM	#1
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	accurate 9mm 147 grain load? hi Ya, I am not satisfied with my 4.3gn of Power Pistol in front of 147 moly coated lead truncated cone bullet as far as accuracy is concerned. I shoot a xd9-tactical gun for steel madness and it seems a bit too loose at over 35 yards. What do you have and from what source? I prefer lots of powder so I can keep an eye on it while loading. much obliged, Max

July 20, 2012, 06:08 PM	#7
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	3.9gn Power Pistol hi Charlie, wow, that's a simple fix. much obliged, max

July 21, 2012, 07:24 PM	#8
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	N320=titegroup hi Glazie, I just had a shooter recommend titegroup. I was told that and N320 are basically same. titegroup is smoky but cheap. since I shoot over 600 month i like cheap. much obliged, max

November 8, 2012, 01:12 PM	#9
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	147gn moly lead; what load? HI Ya Guys, still having trouble. First I found that my XD-Tac was having accuracy probs. so i sent it to S'pgfield who 'fixed' it but didnt tell me what. Next I got so far from whatever good load i was using i cant find my way back. Now I bought N-320 but it doesnt cycle; so today I lower the spring weight and see. also i accidently loaded 50 rounds of N320 to 5grains, i am afraid to put these in a gun as 3.9 is the highest load i see published. I tried PP but I got keyholing. I went back to Red Dot and it works but not great accuracy. and finally i tried wSF 4.3gns works best; i ran out of this one. trials and tribulation, Max

November 8, 2012, 07:35 PM	#15
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Ditto on 231. For years, my standard go to load was the 147 locally made, hard lead TC, sized .357, over enough 231 to get around 1050 f/s. Sometimes more, if there were full sized poppers involved. It was the most accurate load I ever found, not only in my gun, but everyone's who tried it. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 18, 2012, 10:12 PM	#2
oldreloader Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2009 Location: Magnolia, Arkansas Posts: 251	I use 3.0 gr Bullseye, 3.3 gr HP 38, or 4.5 gr AA#5 with MBC 147 gr lead bullets.

July 19, 2012, 01:06 PM	#3
tkglazie Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Posts: 558	3.3-3.4gr N320 works well for me. Very little flip, nice gentle "push" recoil. 900fps. That's a .43 disk if you use a Lee Auto-Disk. This is not a lot of powder though. I think a double charge would just barely overflow the case.

July 19, 2012, 01:41 PM	#4
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Shooting 6" steel plates at 25 yd. For use in my Sig_228 and HK-P7 147 JHP and 5.5 Blue DOT. Just at 850-900 fps and Very accurate

July 20, 2012, 05:02 PM	#5
slugoo Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Location: Littleton Colorado Posts: 78	I'll second Bullseye and aa#5 as my best for 147 9mm. I also have real good shooting with 3.9 of power pistol, when I go above 3.9 I loose accuracy. Charlie

July 20, 2012, 05:20 PM	#6
Skimp Member Join Date: June 12, 2012 Posts: 62	All my shooting with the 9mm 147 grain will be within 21 feet, and its fairly accurate at that distance.

November 8, 2012, 01:21 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	I'd try a different bullet. I think changing powders is for fine tuning, not for trying to make a marginal combination of gun and bullet work at all.

November 8, 2012, 04:02 PM	#11
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	Hi Jim, Weeel, I have 4,000 147gn molys in stock. And I have 500 147gn copper jacketed. 1. the change of bullet didnt do it. Actually the moly coated lead was more accurate 2. I have over 15,000 lead bullets down range thru this gun. the first 14,000 were my own cast 147's. But due to blood lead levels I quit casting and sold 750# of lead to my bullet supplier and got the 4,000 plus some .45's and .38's. I just got back from the range; the N320 doesnt do it at all. at 23yards I get inaccuracy, keyholing, and ftfeed. Later today, after i lick my wounds I am going to try '231'. one thought, I had expected that I had info on what worked before but I dont. much obliged, Max

November 8, 2012, 07:03 PM	#13
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	HI Ya Glazie, I bought 1lb of N320 thinking as you do that over so many bullets it is cheap enough. But for whatever reason I cant get it to work right. I have tried every load from 2.5 to 3.9grains. I have adjusted the seating; albeit I cant go the 1.169" as it is too long in my xd-tac. and all i get is fail to feed even with lowering the recoil spring first from 17 to 16 to 15 to 14. and no decent accuracy. i just loaded the hopper with '231' to see where that gets me. Much obliged, Max

November 8, 2012, 07:25 PM	#14
tkglazie Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Posts: 558	you will definitely find something that works for you with w231. what a great powder.

November 8, 2012, 11:40 PM	#16
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	HS6 is worth a try. However, I tried some of the commercial hard cast bullets (120 gr) and they gave much poorer resutls than the XTPs I was using. As this was in a Sig with a reputation for being caliber correct (not loose require larger bullets) I am not sure the hard cast is the right answer in 9mm Going to large diameter bullet (oversize as it were) is a possibility to try to tighten things up As it stands the leads will be for my fast fire work and I will continue to look for something less expensive for good target note: By far the best has been the Remington Golden Saber commercial (even over the XTP hand loads), those are true tack drivers. When I get done with the target laser, I put on the HD laser and fire a round to check. Right into the center of the 1 inch black at 15 yars every time.

November 9, 2012, 08:38 AM	#17
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	HI RC, It sounds like you are loading and shooting for SD I am shooting for Tactical Sport with Steel Targets that fall. I appreciate the input but I fire around 600 at a minimum per month; lead is cheap and has been accurate in this gun for 15,000 rounds before it all went south. I am following what the 2 guys above said about 231 today, my gunny said the same. Let's see. Meanwhile many thanks to all. Much obliged, Max

November 9, 2012, 11:39 AM	#18
justsoIcanupvotethis Member Join Date: June 11, 2012 Posts: 29	Have you tried Unique? I am pretty impressed with how the 4.3 grains of Unique worked with Rainiers 147 grain hollow points for me with my Ruger P89. That is straight from Alliants web site.

November 9, 2012, 07:02 PM	#19
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	2.8 Bullseye works fine; I think I will go to 3.2 just for the fun of it. Much obliged to all, Max

November 10, 2012, 12:19 PM	#21
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	keyholing? Gerry, swaging the moly coated lead too much rings a bell. I am going to open one or two and look. OK one hour later; 60 good primed cases and seperated 147gn moly coated luger bullets, no swaging. I will have to loook elsewhere: A.My guns? XD9-Tactical, and CZ75 SA, both made in Chech' maybe smaller barrels? I have slugged the XD and it is .3545". The CZ75 is in with the gunny getting a comp hammer. B. No leading, I even use Butch's Bore Cleaner and JB too. C. what was that? small bullets, mine are .359" same as when I cast them before and didnt get keyholes. I was using more Red Dot, not N-320 or Power Pistol or wSF. Much obliged, Max It Last edited by max it; November 10, 2012 at 02:02 PM.

November 10, 2012, 05:02 PM	#22
Gerry Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 382	Well max it, use Red Dot then In all seriousness, I think powder can affect bullet stability to some degree - like trying to use too slow or fast a powder for a specific application. But many of the top Production IPSC grand masters are shooting all A's with 147gr bullets driven by powders like N320 without keyholing. And this is with CZs too, like the Shadow. I can't see keyholing caused by too small a barrel for the size of bullet. It's usually the opposite. I'm shooting .358" home cast bullets, but lubed the ol'fashioned way in the lube groove. Another possibility is that you're just using too light a charge for the particular powder you're trying out. I suggest using a chrono to develop your loads if you aren't already. A charge good enough to at least make 125 to 130 power factor doesn't keyhole if all other factors are good. The physics are pretty simple. You need the bullet to engage the rifling in order to spin the bullet to stabilize itself during its journey to the target - just like throwing a football. Sometimes bullet designs are just silly and don't have enough surface (driving) area to engage the rifling to the degree required. Multiple lube grooves on small 9mm bullets fall into this category. Good luck, but in the end just do whatever works for you. Experimentation is one of the most rewarding aspects of this hobby & sport. Last edited by Gerry; November 10, 2012 at 05:31 PM.

November 11, 2012, 08:23 AM	#23
Beans Member Join Date: December 29, 2006 Location: Border Country Arizona Territory Posts: 20	I am using 3.0 grains of bullseye, WSP primers ,mixed brass and a 147 TC Cast bullet in my S&W 1911 Pro 9mm. The bullets are home cast using wheel weights and 2% tin. This load will hold 80% of the 10 ring and 100% of the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 50 yards. this was a 10 shot groups. It was repeated several times to elimate a fluke group I tested it by shooting it hand held off a bench with my wrists resting on a sandbag. If you are intrested the power facor is 130. __________________ USMC 1961-1971 Retired NRA Life member and Instructor SASS LM 316

November 12, 2012, 04:40 PM	#25
max it Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: SoCal; are we done yet? Posts: 272	Hi Ya, I resluged the barrel of my XD and found it still .355" but the bullseye load is still keyholing; this time i used the moly coate 147gn with 3.2gn bullseye 1.058" oal. and for good measure I loaded some 130gn truncated cone moly coated .358" called .38cal bullets together with 3.6gn of Bullseye seated at 1.10"oal just for fun. The first one, keyholed at 20 yards and beyond. the second one was no more accurate which is about 10" spread at 23 yards, so no brass ring there either. I think I am going to take Gerry's wized advise and go back to the begining; Red Dot. Before I do that I will try the bullseye with some Copper plated 147gn I bought. Much obliged, Max p.s. did the 3.6gn Bullseye, plated 147gn seems better. I will go with it for the competition on Sunday. Let's see if it knocks down some steel. MI Last edited by max it; November 14, 2012 at 04:00 PM.