Is it bad genitics or learned behavior?

bswiv · February 6, 2009, 09:30 PM

There is a ago old debate between behavioral scientist as to whether our actions are the result of some inate genitic predisposition or if those behaviors are learned.

The following came from the Florida Fish & Wildlife Comm. Weekly Action Report for FWC Officers.

====================================================
"Officers Dennis Palmer and Mark Clements observed a vehicle stop and fire two rounds at a decoy they were operating. The shooter was a 13‑year‑old girl whose mother’s boyfriend, a convicted felon, was giving instructions on how to properly kill the deer. The mother drove the car and illuminated the deer for the duo. Citations for night hunting and road hunting were issued."
======================================================

What do you think? Other than that you don't want these clown anywhere near your hunting spots.

PaddyWhacked · February 6, 2009, 09:54 PM

Man have tools. Man use tools. Man use tools kill deer good.

Sure it's instinctive to hunt. Sure it's instinctive to pass that knowledge down. It stops there, though. There rest is plain stupidity. Stupidity isn't genetic. We're born naturally smarter better faster than our ancestors. I believe stupidity has to be learned, albeit through neglect or direct influence.

bswiv · February 6, 2009, 10:01 PM

You're probably right about the 'stupidity" part. I think in a state of nature it would breed out fairly fast............ To the benifit of carnivores and scavengers.

elkman06 · February 7, 2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

I believe stupidity has to be learned, albeit through neglect or direct influence.

Agreed, to a point, environment shapes people. I used to watch the most bada@@#$ people move out to our little town thinking they would influence us country kids. They were chewing copenhagen before you knew it.
That being said, pretty hard to argue w/ IQ scores. Some folks have abilities that others don't. DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT VIABLE, VALUABLE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY. What they do with their lives is up to them. We all have free will.

Quote:

I think in a state of nature it would breed out fairly fast............ To the benifit of carnivores and scavengers.

Agreed, but 5000 years ago. We have been uplifting the weak for a while now.
elkman06

grymster2007 · February 7, 2009, 02:09 PM

Genetics. It'd be hard to learn to be as stupid as some people are.

Me? I have excellent genes!

hogdogs · February 7, 2009, 02:15 PM

Learned behaviors... Just like a yote or bobcat that discovers the "Suburbia All You Can Eat Buffet"

....."It's okay officer... I am a perfeshional poacher..."

Brent

Tommy Vercetti · February 7, 2009, 02:15 PM

definitely both

73flyby · February 7, 2009, 02:53 PM

No direct correlation between intellect and criminal nature. I've know some very smart people that had a deeply ingrained criminal nature. But their intellectual energy was tied up most of the time trying to cover their tracks. I don't think anyone could accuse Mr. Mahoff of being a mental midget. The real idiots are the ones tha tolerate their antisocial behavior. And heck with rehabilitation. Throw away the key. Mr. Brave Hunter in this thread example is lucky that he didn't get them all thrown in the pokey and get the vehicle confiscated. Most states seem to take game law violations more seriously than car theft.

Don't get me started.

LateNightFlight · February 9, 2009, 02:49 PM

Genetics are huge, and studies of twins separated at birth support this. This is also observed in individuals growing up, apart from a biological parent. They may have almost nothing in common with a parent that raises them, and when reunited with an absent parent, are shocked by the uncanny parallels beyond appearance alone, right down to shared interests in music, political orientation, food preferences, talents, etc., etc.

Quote:

No direct correlation between intellect and criminal nature.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. 'Stupid criminals' is a tried and true axiom. For certain, the stupid ones are caught more often, anyway.

zahnzieh · February 10, 2009, 01:09 PM

Great debate! But one obsevation (as a dental practitioner) - even if they shot the deer, how would they chew it? Mom,Dad and the kid probably have one ttoth between them!

Double Naught Spy · February 10, 2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Stupidity isn't genetic. We're born naturally smarter better faster than our ancestors.

Nope. Lower intelligence most certainly can be genetic. What many folks fail to realize about genetics is that traits exist until they are completely unneeded or are selected against such that the genetic material ceases to contribute to the population. So long as lower intelligence doesn't have a negative affect on breeding, the individual being so lacking as to not be able to survive and/or know to breed), that trait gets passed on to successive generations.

Quote:

I believe stupidity has to be learned, albeit through neglect or direct influence.

Nope.

Quote:

No direct correlation between intellect and criminal nature.

Yep. And no known correlation exists between genetics and being law abiding to game firearms laws.

The behavior described is only stupid because it is in conflict with current artificial (non-natural) local (as opposed to global) laws. Such behavior would be fine elsewhere in the world.

Bitmap · February 10, 2009, 02:08 PM

I agree with "both". I think they had to start with low I.Q.'s and then work hard to achieve what they did.

bswiv · February 10, 2009, 07:26 PM

Now I have another question related to the first.......

So if these two manage to reproduce with oneanother will the ofspring have double the smarts of the parents, which admitidly will not be much?

Or will it be just as dumb as these two.

Or is it possible that the combination of their individual stupid genes will create a ofspring even dumber than they are? Kind of like when two recessive genes combine to cause a problem?

Evan Thomas · February 16, 2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Now I have another question related to the first.......

So if these two manage to reproduce with oneanother will the ofspring have double the smarts of the parents, which admitidly will not be much?

Or will it be just as dumb as these two.

Or is it possible that the combination of their individual stupid genes will create a ofspring even dumber than they are? Kind of like when two recessive genes combine to cause a problem?

As to the genetics... the offspring will probably be sort of middling stupid... Stupid or smart is somewhat determined by genetics, but depends on a lot of different genes, not just one pair, as in the case of the two recessive genes combining. There's a thing in statistical genetics called "regression to the mean" -- which basically predicts that offspring of a really stupid person, or a really smart one, will be, umm... a lot closer to the average.

Of course, given that gene expression in an individual is pretty dependent on the environment they develop in, the odds that really stupid parents will raise stupid kids are pretty high...

Creature · February 16, 2009, 05:20 PM

Funny thing about genetics. There are certain "behavioral" traits that should, in theory, breed themselves into extinction. Yet here they remain. Which proves that some deviant and aberrant behaviors are learned...and are not "born with" traits.

So much for the genetics theory.

Big Bill · February 16, 2009, 08:49 PM

How many times do you think these morons have done this and not been caught?

davlandrum · February 17, 2009, 11:46 AM

Behaviors are learned, and jack-lighting deer is a behaviour.

2 of my 4 kids are adopted, and came to us very young. Thier future behaviour is much more a factor of our influence then who the birth parents were.

My theory as to why there seem to be many "stupid" criminals is that they are more easily influenced by outside influences without thinking through the entire ramification of thier actions.

Brian Pfleuger · February 17, 2009, 01:35 PM

Well, let me give you an example.

My uncle married a very nice lady who already had a daughter who was about 3 at the time. My uncle is responsible and logical in most every thing to the point that many people might consider him a bit excessive. He taught this young lady, whom he adopted, how to handle every aspect of life-money, cars, boys, etc. He taught her how to make and live on a budget, he taught her to work hard and be diligent. When she turned 16 and got her permit he made her check the oil in his car EVERY time she drove. Now, his cars don't leak or burn oil so probably once a week would be more than enough but he wanted her to get in the habit, knowing that her first cars would be used and probably less well maintained.

Girl gets first car, NEVER once checks the oil.
Girl enrolls in college, never goes, drops out, gets minimum wage job, doesn't go, gets fired and works 4-5 jobs a year, repeating the cycle each time.
Girl gets pregnant by, well, it was one of these 3 or 4 guys.
Girl runs cell phone bill into stratosphere, can't pay, won't pay, no phone.
Girl lives with random people in random apartments for 3 or 4 months at a time until they're evicted and then they do it again someplace else.

Yeah, so it might be both but there's a catch. "Learned" can be "unlearned", bad genes are what they are...

teeroux · February 17, 2009, 01:44 PM

Genes make you what you are not who you are.

Just look at identical twins some start the same in every way but end up being totally different people.

Creature · February 17, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Just look at identical twins some start the same in every way but end up being totally different people.

There are many examples that show identical twins seperated at birth who share very similiar behaviors and personaility traits that indicate otherwise. So much for the "Nurture" theory...

http://web.pdx.edu/~megr/inquiry_naturevsnurture.htm

Brian Pfleuger · February 17, 2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

There are many examples that show identical twins seperated at birth who share very similiar behaviors

Yep, Creatures right. Separated identical twins tend to show shocking similar behaviors and tastes.

Quote:

Just look at identical twins some start the same in every way but end up being totally different people.

I'm going to say that the winky you put in there means your being facetious.

JBriggs · February 17, 2009, 03:00 PM

Read "The Bell Curve" for more insight into this topic. Most of the conclusions from that exhaustive research project will probably not amaze you.

February 6, 2009, 09:30 PM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Is it bad genitics or learned behavior? There is a ago old debate between behavioral scientist as to whether our actions are the result of some inate genitic predisposition or if those behaviors are learned. The following came from the Florida Fish & Wildlife Comm. Weekly Action Report for FWC Officers. ==================================================== "Officers Dennis Palmer and Mark Clements observed a vehicle stop and fire two rounds at a decoy they were operating. The shooter was a 13‑year‑old girl whose mother’s boyfriend, a convicted felon, was giving instructions on how to properly kill the deer. The mother drove the car and illuminated the deer for the duo. Citations for night hunting and road hunting were issued." ====================================================== What do you think? Other than that you don't want these clown anywhere near your hunting spots.

February 6, 2009, 09:54 PM	#2
PaddyWhacked Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Mentor, KY Posts: 78	Man have tools. Man use tools. Man use tools kill deer good. Sure it's instinctive to hunt. Sure it's instinctive to pass that knowledge down. It stops there, though. There rest is plain stupidity. Stupidity isn't genetic. We're born naturally smarter better faster than our ancestors. I believe stupidity has to be learned, albeit through neglect or direct influence. __________________ "Any man who is willing to sacrifice essential liberties for the sake of security deserves, neither.” - Benjamin Franklin

February 7, 2009, 02:09 PM	#5
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	Genetics. It'd be hard to learn to be as stupid as some people are. Me? I have excellent genes! __________________ grym

February 7, 2009, 02:15 PM	#7
Tommy Vercetti Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2004 Location: Fairhope, Alabama Posts: 1,119	I think it's both definitely both __________________ "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." Sinclair Lewis, (It Can't Happen Here, 1935) "Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

February 16, 2009, 08:49 PM	#16
Big Bill Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,053	How many times do you think these morons have done this and not been caught? __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." - General George Patton Jr

February 6, 2009, 10:01 PM	#3
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	You're probably right about the 'stupidity" part. I think in a state of nature it would breed out fairly fast............ To the benifit of carnivores and scavengers.

February 7, 2009, 02:15 PM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Learned behaviors... Just like a yote or bobcat that discovers the "Suburbia All You Can Eat Buffet" ....."It's okay officer... I am a perfeshional poacher..." Brent

February 7, 2009, 02:53 PM	#8
73flyby Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Posts: 51	No direct correlation between intellect and criminal nature. I've know some very smart people that had a deeply ingrained criminal nature. But their intellectual energy was tied up most of the time trying to cover their tracks. I don't think anyone could accuse Mr. Mahoff of being a mental midget. The real idiots are the ones tha tolerate their antisocial behavior. And heck with rehabilitation. Throw away the key. Mr. Brave Hunter in this thread example is lucky that he didn't get them all thrown in the pokey and get the vehicle confiscated. Most states seem to take game law violations more seriously than car theft. Don't get me started.

February 10, 2009, 01:09 PM	#10
zahnzieh Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2006 Posts: 206	Great debate! But one obsevation (as a dental practitioner) - even if they shot the deer, how would they chew it? Mom,Dad and the kid probably have one ttoth between them!

February 10, 2009, 02:08 PM	#12
Bitmap Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Posts: 388	I agree with "both". I think they had to start with low I.Q.'s and then work hard to achieve what they did.

February 10, 2009, 07:26 PM	#13
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Now I have another question related to the first....... So if these two manage to reproduce with oneanother will the ofspring have double the smarts of the parents, which admitidly will not be much? Or will it be just as dumb as these two. Or is it possible that the combination of their individual stupid genes will create a ofspring even dumber than they are? Kind of like when two recessive genes combine to cause a problem?

February 16, 2009, 05:20 PM	#15
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	Funny thing about genetics. There are certain "behavioral" traits that should, in theory, breed themselves into extinction. Yet here they remain. Which proves that some deviant and aberrant behaviors are learned...and are not "born with" traits. So much for the genetics theory.

February 17, 2009, 11:46 AM	#17
davlandrum Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Lane County Oregon Posts: 2,547	Behaviors are learned, and jack-lighting deer is a behaviour. 2 of my 4 kids are adopted, and came to us very young. Thier future behaviour is much more a factor of our influence then who the birth parents were. My theory as to why there seem to be many "stupid" criminals is that they are more easily influenced by outside influences without thinking through the entire ramification of thier actions. __________________ U.S Army, Retired Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart

February 17, 2009, 01:35 PM	#18
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Genetics or Learned? Well, let me give you an example. My uncle married a very nice lady who already had a daughter who was about 3 at the time. My uncle is responsible and logical in most every thing to the point that many people might consider him a bit excessive. He taught this young lady, whom he adopted, how to handle every aspect of life-money, cars, boys, etc. He taught her how to make and live on a budget, he taught her to work hard and be diligent. When she turned 16 and got her permit he made her check the oil in his car EVERY time she drove. Now, his cars don't leak or burn oil so probably once a week would be more than enough but he wanted her to get in the habit, knowing that her first cars would be used and probably less well maintained. Girl gets first car, NEVER once checks the oil. Girl enrolls in college, never goes, drops out, gets minimum wage job, doesn't go, gets fired and works 4-5 jobs a year, repeating the cycle each time. Girl gets pregnant by, well, it was one of these 3 or 4 guys. Girl runs cell phone bill into stratosphere, can't pay, won't pay, no phone. Girl lives with random people in random apartments for 3 or 4 months at a time until they're evicted and then they do it again someplace else. Yeah, so it might be both but there's a catch. "Learned" can be "unlearned", bad genes are what they are... __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 17, 2009, 01:44 PM	#19
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	Genes make you what you are not who you are. Just look at identical twins some start the same in every way but end up being totally different people.

February 17, 2009, 03:00 PM	#22
JBriggs Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 328	Read "The Bell Curve" for more insight into this topic. Most of the conclusions from that exhaustive research project will probably not amaze you. __________________ Bear Arms or Wear Chains