New bullseye shooter question

model14 · November 24, 2008, 08:09 PM

I am new to target/BE shooting. I have a S&W k-38 with an UltraDot sight. I have read some concerning proper technique and notice that most/Army recommend using the single hand hold, arm extended method. In my case I can hold significantly more steady and get better results using two hands with the left elbow resting against my side. Anyone else with the same experience or is it just me? I have not been around many actual good target shooters, just mainly what I have read about with respect to proper technique.

darkgael · November 24, 2008, 08:16 PM

If you intend to enter competition and shoot Bullseye matches, the rule is that you MUST shoot with "one hand,unsupported".
It takes more practice and is less steady but you become a better shot, in a sense. That being said, I have found that after years of competing, I shoot better one handed than with two. Again, practice with a two-hand hold would change that.
Pete

model14 · November 24, 2008, 08:23 PM

Thanks for the info. Do you know why that is? Seems like a funny rule to me, but rules are rules, I guess.

Jim Watson · November 24, 2008, 08:37 PM

Because you have to keep your other hand free for the horse's reins.

Because a gentleman does not fight a duel with both hands on the pistol.

Traditional pistol technique goes back that far.

darkgael · November 25, 2008, 01:42 AM

"Seems like a funny rule to me,"
I don't quite follow that. Why would shooting one hand unsupported be a funny rule? It could be as Jim Watson says historically. I only know that ALL Bullseye matches are shot this way in both Conventional (USA) shooting and International shooting (different rules and targets). All pistol shooting in the Olympics (Air, Free, Rapid) is shot one-handed.
There is a tremendous emphasis on many forums on Combat/Practical shooting which is done two-handed for the most part and has it's own set of difficulties; that, however, is not classic Bullseye shooting.
Pete

Casimer · November 25, 2008, 02:36 AM

Conventional pistols rules were originally adapted from military and police marksmanship training. This included the course of fire and one-handed shooting with an extended arm. BE and High Power competition was, and to a minor degree still is, a government sponsored activity intended to foster competency with service firearms among civilians.

melchloboo · November 25, 2008, 07:23 PM

In my opinion a skilled bullseye pistol shooter will shoot more accurately with one hand.

The key to extreme precision is elimination of all unnecessary movement. Introducing another hand, arm, pectoral, latissimus and so-on cannot be good. A one-handed approach means the shooter need only focus on the gripping fingers and his trigger finger. The thumb and pinky play no role.

I understand your temporary need for support, but that will go away. Holding the gun up will cease to be a problem and likely you will refocus your efforts on a firm grip.

What you will find is that when you shoot other disciplines that require 2 hands you will have a much better understanding of how to grip with the off-hand and what it is supposed to accomplish. You will find your accuracy greatly improved with 2 hands.

Hang in there!

Citizen Carrier · November 26, 2008, 12:18 PM

I too started out thinking that one handed shooting simply wasn't going to be as accurate as two handed shooting.

Now I shoot better with one hand than I ever did with two.

I remember plinking some clay pigeons at 25 and 50 yards with one of my Ruger Mk IIs with one hand next to a guy who had obviously just bought the FN9 he was using.

I believe it may have been his first handgun, period.

After awhile, I looked over and noticed he was aping my one-handed bullseye shooting stance where before, he had been shooting two-handed.

I grinned at him and he smiled back since it was obvious he was hoping to get the same results I was getting by shooting with one hand. He...didn't quite have the knack of it yet.

But phenomenal things can be achieved in a short period of time.

mtlucas0311 · November 27, 2008, 12:59 AM

If your just starting out, the best thing you can do is not listen to anything that anyone at the range tells you to do in regards to "what worked for them"; especially the guy who wants to run over and give you unsolicited advice. It sounds like you know where to find information about bullseye, the military and the NRA. Read it and stick to it, despite any of the temptations you will have to try something different. In your case, it's two hands and resting an elbow on your body. You may very well see some great improvement, but you will find that you never really "get good". Scores will usually stagnate and be very inconsistent, one night in the 30's the next in the 70's then the 40's etc. And when you try to go back to the fundamentals your score will be in the crapper. It's normal. It happens to everybody. But if you stick with the fundamentals, you will first see your scores stabilize, no more twenty or thirty point swings from day to day. Then you will see a steady increase, until you shoot better than your previous high every week. It takes time and practice, and very objective judgment of how well you perform the fundamentals. It's not easy and it's not fast.
With me it was trigger control, and I had very good shooters telling me what I was doing wrong, I just wouldn't listen. I got so consistent at jerking the trigger, I could actually get into the eighties fairly regularly. But every once in a while I'd get a couple of fliers up in the 8 ring, it wasn't that they were bad shots, they were my only "good" shots. I somehow managed to not jerk the trigger, and the shot went where the gun was actually pointed. I was so consistent at jerking the trigger, my sights were set high to the left, and when I jerked it, the shot went low right, so I'd pepper the 9 or even 10 ring.

Personally, I would dump the red dot, you'll be a better shooter in the long run if you teach yourself with a good set of adjustable sights. And stay away from the light triggers, it will only mask poor trigger control, which is arguably the most important part of bullseye. If you get good with iron sights and a 4 pound trigger, you will be able to shoot anything well.

Good luck! And don't get discouraged.

cdrt · November 27, 2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Read it and stick to it, despite any of the temptations you will have to try something different. In your case, it's two hands and resting an elbow on your body.

All well and good, except that, as discussed above, this stance is not legal in NRA Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) matches.

It does pay to listen to shooter's in a particular discipline if they are knowledgeable of the rules and are giving you the wealth of their experience on firearms and techniques. Most of the guys I've met shooting Bullseye over the years want to help because they want to keep the sport going.

For the beginning Bullseye shooter, the best bet is to get a good autoloader .22 and shoot that. A revolver in Bullseye takes more time and training than any autoloader out there. Once you master the .22, you can start on the .45 ACP.

A good place to start in research is the "Pistol Shooter's Treasury" book sold by Gil Hebard Guns. It may seem outdated because it's "pre-red dot" but it has lots of good info.

melchloboo · November 27, 2008, 12:51 PM

I would second all that advice except:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
and download the Army Marksmanship Unit guide and treat it like a bible.

Welcome to bullseye and ask, ask, ask away!

I'd also suggest a decent air pistol, even airsoft, for daily practice in any room of the house or apartment.

darkgael · November 27, 2008, 01:11 PM

This thread is remarkable for the amount of good advice that it contains - from the AMU manual, to The Pistol Shooter's Treasury, to learning on iron sights, to using an air pistol. Just good solid info.
I, too, shoot better one-handed. Much easier to diagnose.
Pete

TNT_Shooter · November 27, 2008, 04:59 PM

Model 14,

Welcome to Bullseye shooting! You and I happen to be neighbors...I live in Jackson. We have a indoor .22 LR Bullseye league that you are welcome to join and there are many outdoor matches in Michigan and surrounding areas that offer great learning experiences. I would be happy to help you get involved with matches and give some (humble) shooting advice to get you started. I will PM my contact info and feel free to call or email me with any questions.

By the way, the folks who chimed in on this thread are 100% accurate in their advice....basically, keep an open mind and a great attitude. There is a wealth of knowledge out there and people who want to share it.

Look forward to hearing from you!

TNT

mtlucas0311 · November 28, 2008, 06:27 PM

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that he shouldn't take advice from fellow bullseye shooters, I just think that a new shooter doesn't have the ability to distinguish someone who's knowledgeable from someone who really isn't with respect to bullseye. He seemed to indicate that he's not shot with any "good target shooters", so I figured he was maybe paying to shoot somewhere, trying to learn by himself. Around me place's like that tend to have a few more know it alls than clubs with bullseye leagues do, because bullseye shooters will usually call out somebody preaching bunk technique to a new shooter. From my experience the know it alls tend to push crazy stances and grips on people trying to learn. That's what I meant by "don't listen to them" and "stick to the fundamentals" (a.k.a. what you would read in literature like the AMU manual). Hope I didn't come off as abrasive in my post, it was not my intention. I just hate to see new shooters get frustrated when they have to try and un-learn bad habits they picked up from somebody who claimed to know more than they really do.
Good call on the .22 auto to start.

melchloboo · November 28, 2008, 08:33 PM

You are absolutely right...the know-it-all (nothings) will hound the new shooters wherever one goes.

I can say that few things made trips to the range more pleasant than when I finally started out shooting the know-it-alls and they leave me alone and move on to the next victim.

model14 · November 29, 2008, 07:34 PM

A lot of good information here, thanks. I am a good listener.

November 24, 2008, 08:09 PM	#1
model14 Member Join Date: November 15, 2008 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan (75 miles West of Detroit in beautiful farm country. Posts: 44	New bullseye shooter question I am new to target/BE shooting. I have a S&W k-38 with an UltraDot sight. I have read some concerning proper technique and notice that most/Army recommend using the single hand hold, arm extended method. In my case I can hold significantly more steady and get better results using two hands with the left elbow resting against my side. Anyone else with the same experience or is it just me? I have not been around many actual good target shooters, just mainly what I have read about with respect to proper technique. Last edited by model14; November 24, 2008 at 08:15 PM.

November 24, 2008, 08:16 PM	#2
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	BE shooting If you intend to enter competition and shoot Bullseye matches, the rule is that you MUST shoot with "one hand,unsupported". It takes more practice and is less steady but you become a better shot, in a sense. That being said, I have found that after years of competing, I shoot better one handed than with two. Again, practice with a two-hand hold would change that. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

November 25, 2008, 01:42 AM	#5
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	BE shooting "Seems like a funny rule to me," I don't quite follow that. Why would shooting one hand unsupported be a funny rule? It could be as Jim Watson says historically. I only know that ALL Bullseye matches are shot this way in both Conventional (USA) shooting and International shooting (different rules and targets). All pistol shooting in the Olympics (Air, Free, Rapid) is shot one-handed. There is a tremendous emphasis on many forums on Combat/Practical shooting which is done two-handed for the most part and has it's own set of difficulties; that, however, is not classic Bullseye shooting. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

November 26, 2008, 12:18 PM	#8
Citizen Carrier Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 671	I too started out thinking that one handed shooting simply wasn't going to be as accurate as two handed shooting. Now I shoot better with one hand than I ever did with two. I remember plinking some clay pigeons at 25 and 50 yards with one of my Ruger Mk IIs with one hand next to a guy who had obviously just bought the FN9 he was using. I believe it may have been his first handgun, period. After awhile, I looked over and noticed he was aping my one-handed bullseye shooting stance where before, he had been shooting two-handed. I grinned at him and he smiled back since it was obvious he was hoping to get the same results I was getting by shooting with one hand. He...didn't quite have the knack of it yet. But phenomenal things can be achieved in a short period of time. __________________ Once you've got your sights adjusted to the ammunition you have, step away from the bench. In competition or the field...there are no benches.

November 27, 2008, 01:11 PM	#12
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Great advice This thread is remarkable for the amount of good advice that it contains - from the AMU manual, to The Pistol Shooter's Treasury, to learning on iron sights, to using an air pistol. Just good solid info. I, too, shoot better one-handed. Much easier to diagnose. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

November 24, 2008, 08:23 PM	#3
model14 Member Join Date: November 15, 2008 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan (75 miles West of Detroit in beautiful farm country. Posts: 44	Thanks for the info. Do you know why that is? Seems like a funny rule to me, but rules are rules, I guess.

November 24, 2008, 08:37 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Because you have to keep your other hand free for the horse's reins. Because a gentleman does not fight a duel with both hands on the pistol. Traditional pistol technique goes back that far.

November 25, 2008, 02:36 AM	#6
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	Conventional pistols rules were originally adapted from military and police marksmanship training. This included the course of fire and one-handed shooting with an extended arm. BE and High Power competition was, and to a minor degree still is, a government sponsored activity intended to foster competency with service firearms among civilians.

November 25, 2008, 07:23 PM	#7
melchloboo Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Posts: 279	In my opinion a skilled bullseye pistol shooter will shoot more accurately with one hand. The key to extreme precision is elimination of all unnecessary movement. Introducing another hand, arm, pectoral, latissimus and so-on cannot be good. A one-handed approach means the shooter need only focus on the gripping fingers and his trigger finger. The thumb and pinky play no role. I understand your temporary need for support, but that will go away. Holding the gun up will cease to be a problem and likely you will refocus your efforts on a firm grip. What you will find is that when you shoot other disciplines that require 2 hands you will have a much better understanding of how to grip with the off-hand and what it is supposed to accomplish. You will find your accuracy greatly improved with 2 hands. Hang in there!

November 27, 2008, 12:59 AM	#9
mtlucas0311 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: Shelby Township MI Posts: 125	If your just starting out, the best thing you can do is not listen to anything that anyone at the range tells you to do in regards to "what worked for them"; especially the guy who wants to run over and give you unsolicited advice. It sounds like you know where to find information about bullseye, the military and the NRA. Read it and stick to it, despite any of the temptations you will have to try something different. In your case, it's two hands and resting an elbow on your body. You may very well see some great improvement, but you will find that you never really "get good". Scores will usually stagnate and be very inconsistent, one night in the 30's the next in the 70's then the 40's etc. And when you try to go back to the fundamentals your score will be in the crapper. It's normal. It happens to everybody. But if you stick with the fundamentals, you will first see your scores stabilize, no more twenty or thirty point swings from day to day. Then you will see a steady increase, until you shoot better than your previous high every week. It takes time and practice, and very objective judgment of how well you perform the fundamentals. It's not easy and it's not fast. With me it was trigger control, and I had very good shooters telling me what I was doing wrong, I just wouldn't listen. I got so consistent at jerking the trigger, I could actually get into the eighties fairly regularly. But every once in a while I'd get a couple of fliers up in the 8 ring, it wasn't that they were bad shots, they were my only "good" shots. I somehow managed to not jerk the trigger, and the shot went where the gun was actually pointed. I was so consistent at jerking the trigger, my sights were set high to the left, and when I jerked it, the shot went low right, so I'd pepper the 9 or even 10 ring. Personally, I would dump the red dot, you'll be a better shooter in the long run if you teach yourself with a good set of adjustable sights. And stay away from the light triggers, it will only mask poor trigger control, which is arguably the most important part of bullseye. If you get good with iron sights and a 4 pound trigger, you will be able to shoot anything well. Good luck! And don't get discouraged.

November 27, 2008, 12:51 PM	#11
melchloboo Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Posts: 279	I would second all that advice except: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ and download the Army Marksmanship Unit guide and treat it like a bible. Welcome to bullseye and ask, ask, ask away! I'd also suggest a decent air pistol, even airsoft, for daily practice in any room of the house or apartment.

November 27, 2008, 04:59 PM	#13
TNT_Shooter Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 101	Model 14, Welcome to Bullseye shooting! You and I happen to be neighbors...I live in Jackson. We have a indoor .22 LR Bullseye league that you are welcome to join and there are many outdoor matches in Michigan and surrounding areas that offer great learning experiences. I would be happy to help you get involved with matches and give some (humble) shooting advice to get you started. I will PM my contact info and feel free to call or email me with any questions. By the way, the folks who chimed in on this thread are 100% accurate in their advice....basically, keep an open mind and a great attitude. There is a wealth of knowledge out there and people who want to share it. Look forward to hearing from you! TNT

November 28, 2008, 06:27 PM	#14
mtlucas0311 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: Shelby Township MI Posts: 125	Just to clarify, I didn't mean that he shouldn't take advice from fellow bullseye shooters, I just think that a new shooter doesn't have the ability to distinguish someone who's knowledgeable from someone who really isn't with respect to bullseye. He seemed to indicate that he's not shot with any "good target shooters", so I figured he was maybe paying to shoot somewhere, trying to learn by himself. Around me place's like that tend to have a few more know it alls than clubs with bullseye leagues do, because bullseye shooters will usually call out somebody preaching bunk technique to a new shooter. From my experience the know it alls tend to push crazy stances and grips on people trying to learn. That's what I meant by "don't listen to them" and "stick to the fundamentals" (a.k.a. what you would read in literature like the AMU manual). Hope I didn't come off as abrasive in my post, it was not my intention. I just hate to see new shooters get frustrated when they have to try and un-learn bad habits they picked up from somebody who claimed to know more than they really do. Good call on the .22 auto to start. Last edited by mtlucas0311; November 28, 2008 at 06:35 PM.

November 28, 2008, 08:33 PM	#15
melchloboo Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Posts: 279	You are absolutely right...the know-it-all (nothings) will hound the new shooters wherever one goes. I can say that few things made trips to the range more pleasant than when I finally started out shooting the know-it-alls and they leave me alone and move on to the next victim.

November 29, 2008, 07:34 PM	#16
model14 Member Join Date: November 15, 2008 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan (75 miles West of Detroit in beautiful farm country. Posts: 44	A lot of good information here, thanks. I am a good listener.