Sentry fire safe, why can't it be a gun safe?

[shamus005]

I saw a sentry fire safe at wal mart that world be just the right size for me. I don't need, and can't afford a $3000 dollar fort knox-type of fire safe. For my needs I need something smaller and the Sentry fire safe (1.2 cubit feet) would suit me just fine.

It has the same fire rating as an "official" fire gun safe, why can't I use this safe for my firearms?

[zoomie]

I keep ammo and handguns in a Sentry Fire Safe - along with important documents. I feel as confident with it as I would a fire-retardant gun safe.

[rgoers]

I have a fire proof, flood proof Sentry safe. The problem I am having is how to secure the thing, without losing the water/fire proof properties.

[Wrascal]

Thats what I'm using!

[OBIWAN]

No reason why you cannot

They are pretty fireproof

But the ones I have seen do not appear to be as secure from theft

[a1abdj]

There are a few reasons you should not use a Sentry fire safe (and other document safes) for storing weapons.

First and foremost, gun safes and document safes have little in common. The insulation used to protect against fire is different. Document safes use a moisture rich insulation designed to bake off in a fire. This generates steam inside of the safe, which keeps the contents protected. This same moisture rich insulation causes a high humidity level within the safe, and will rust firearms. Sentry specifically mentions this in their owners manual.

Most gun safes use gypsum board for insulation. This has a much lower moisture content which protects the guns, but is not nearly as effective against a fire. The Sentry is a UL rated fire safe. There is currently no gun safe on the market which passes the UL test for fire. Most independant testing is not worth the paper it is written on. It is surely not acceptable to insurance companies that require specific ratings.

The second major reason is that the Sentry safes do not meet legal standards for safe gun storage. This is especially true in California with the CA DOJ storage requirements.

There are certain types of safes that are smaller than typical gun safes, and suitable for pistol storage. These include steel plate safes (no insulation), small gun type safes (gypsum board insulation), or composite safes (burglary and fire protection). Most of the time, these types of safes will not be available through your local sporting goods store or big box retailer. You'll have to speak with somebody in the safe business.

[waterhouse]

a1abdj,

I understand about how if there is a fire the moisture rich environment of a document safe will be bad for my gun.

If there is no fire, will a document safe be a fine place to lock up a gun if nothing else is available? Or will it be more moist in a document safe all the time, not only in times of fire? Basically can a document safe be used safely as a non fire lock box for guns, or will they rust in there?

[a1abdj]

From what I've seen with document safes, the cheaper they are, the more humid they are inside. The higher end fire safes tend to use better designed insulations.

If you'll notice on the Sentry document safes, the interiors are made of plastic. This isn't strictly a cost issue. The older Sentry safes with steel interiors often rusted. Another forum member on another gun forum put his cigar hygrometer in a Sentry safe over night. The hygrometer reported 80% humidity levels (firearms should be stored in the 30% to 40% range).

These types of insulations tend to keep the interior of the safe moist at all times. If you do not open the safe on a regular basis to let the safe air out, you will often notice a musty smell, especially on paperwork.

If you must store moisture sensitive items inside of a document safe (firearms, coins, stamps, etc.), then you should store them in a microwave safe tupperware style container.

This does not apply to all Sentry products. Sentry offers a wide variety of safes which could be used to store firearms. This advice is solely for the UL rated document safes that they sell. I should also add that the locks on these cheaper document safes are nothing more than privacy locks. You will get very little burglary protection from this type of safe.

[newerguy]

Many document fire safes, including my Sentry, can be pried open with a screwdriver. You can't pry open my gun safe, anything that will fit in the door gap will bend. My document safe cannot be bolted to the floor, my gun safe is. I can pick the lock on my document safe is a couple seconds (used to do locksmithing when I was a kid). I couldn't pick the key lock on my gun safe (it's an electronic lock with a backup key).

There are lots of documents I want safe from fire, like my insurance policies, my marriage license, my will, etc. The stuff I want safe from theft is is the gun safe (with the rattlesnake ).

One of the most street smart guys I ever met (he might have been the toughest old coot I ever knew) used to say, "locks are for honest people".

[BobK]

Listen to a1abdj. I have lost count of the Sentry fire safes AND Sentry gun safes I have had to open because they failed internally. Sorry to offend anyone, but they are JUNK! With Sentry you truly get what you pay for. Here at the local gun show I have seen Liberty gunsafes for under $700.00.

It is every gun owners responsibilty to secure and keep safe their firearms. Put off buying that next gun and get a good quality safe that can be bolted down and is made in the US.

[Playboypenguin]

I have them side by side in the utility room. They are more than enough to deter the common thief and did not cost an arm and a leg. I have them lag bolted to both the concrete floor and the foundation wall.

On this very board we did alot of checking into safe qualities awhile back and after talking to firemen, calling manufacturers, and even speaking to a rep at Underwriter Labs I was unable to find enough of a difference to make it worth all the extra money.

[Johnc]

a1abdj is 100% correct. I made the mistake of using a document safe for some hand guns. I now have surface rust on some nice guns. They retain moisture. Like a dope, I never asked why you should not use them for guns. In the instructions they tell you "not for use with guns".

If you must use one temporarily, I would recommend using large amounts of desiccant and recharging/replacing them often.

You are a wiser man than I for just asking!

[Playboypenguin]

a1abdj is 100% correct. I made the mistake of using a document safe for some hand guns. I now have surface rust on some nice guns. They retain moisture. Like a dope, I never asked why you should not use them for guns. In the instructions they tell you "not for use with guns".

I think the original poster needs to clarify which model of Sentry safe of which he is speaking. Many of the Sentry safes list firearms and their intended usage.

[BobK]

Playboy, the model you have is prone to failure. I have opened several. There is a BIG difference. And what the heck do firemen know about gunsafes? Not trying to give you a hard time. People never listen and learn the hard way. And of course foks get pissed at me when I tell them how much it's going to cost to get the safe open. It ain't worth the headache. Buy American made safes.

[skeeter1]

I've got a Sentry document safe in the basement primarily for storing papers. I put two 40gram dessicant canisters in it and stored one handgun inside for a year with no problem. Now I have a full-size gunsafe with a pair of Remington 365 mini-dehumidifiers. Both seem to work well, but I like the Remington dehumifiers much better because you cand just plug them into an outlet to recharge rather than having heat up the oven.

[NJ-Dirtrdr]

I bought the fireproof/floodproof Sentry safe from Walmart that was previously mentioned. After a quick inspection, I quickly threw away any hopes that it was actually floodproof. Once I was over that, I decided to drill some holes in it to bolt it to the floor.

Document safes use a moisture rich insulation designed to bake off in a fire. This generates steam inside of the safe, which keeps the contents protected

When I drilled through the safe, there was this very moist material that clogged up my drill bits...almost like clay. Now it makes sense as to why all this stuff is sandwiched between the steel layers (which were alarmingly thin BTW).

After my first hand disection, I wouldn't dare store anything in there that would corrode. Just a thought.

[Playboypenguin]

And what the heck do firemen know about gunsafes?

They know first hand the survival rate of so called "fire safes". All the research I did was unable to find anyone that claimed a safe would actually survive a fire to the degree they are rated. Firemen and a friend that is an arson/fire inspector says none will survive a direct fire for anywhere near what they are rated.

A call to UL (which rates the safes) revealed that they do not actually test the safes. The just certify the information given to them by the manufacturer.

As for failures, thousands of openings so far and no issues. I have one Sentry safe I have had for many years and no issues. If they ever did fail I would just cut them open and not be out much money.

[ShootemDown]

I have a cheap all metal sentry safe, it is not fireproof.

it comes with key and combo lock. it fits 6 handguns easy. got two shelves.

99 dollars.

[a1abdj]

They know first hand the survival rate of so called "fire safes". All the research I did was unable to find anyone that claimed a safe would actually survive a fire to the degree they are rated. Firemen and a friend that is an arson/fire inspector says none will survive a direct fire for anywhere near what they are rated.

I have many photos taken by fellow safe techs which show burned safes. We are often called out immediately after a fire to open and recover the contents of safes which often have the dials and handles melted off.

Safes rated by UL and other recognized agencies do often protect their contents. The items inside may not survived in pristine condition in all cases, but they do typically survive.

Gun safes that have been tested by unrecognized agencies often do no protect their contents. In many cases, it's a complete loss.

A call to UL (which rates the safes) revealed that they do not actually test the safes. The just certify the information given to them by the manufacturer.

I don't think the person you spoke with at UL knows what they are talking about.

All fire rated safes must undergo a furnace test, a drop test, and an explosion (from steam) test. After the initial testing is done, the safe manufacturer must allow random inspections of their facilities by UL representatives to insure all of the safes being produced are identical to the safe submitted for testing.

As for failures, thousands of openings so far and no issues. I have one Sentry safe I have had for many years and no issues. If they ever did fail I would just cut them open and not be out much money.

Inexpensive products are built with inexpensive parts. In my experience, safes like Sentry, are much more prone to failure. I have also seen 20 year old Sentry products still in use.

I often charge more to deliver these types of safes than the safe cost. I also often charge more to open them than the safe cost. Sometimes cheap products don't end up being the bargain people thought they would be.

[Playboypenguin]

All fire rated safes must undergo a furnace test, a drop test, and an explosion (from steam) test. After the initial testing is done, the safe manufacturer must allow random inspections of their facilities by UL representatives to insure all of the safes being produced are identical to the safe submitted for testing.

You would think that but it is not the case. UL is not legally required to actually perform the tests or validate the testing of any item that would not pose a threat to human life or pose a safety hazard. Therefore they often accept money for endorsing things such as safes without testing as long as the manufacterer provides a warranty for the product.

I spoke to several people at UL and they even referred me to their legal division which pointed me to the laws which stated pretty much what I just said.

Inexpensive products are built with inexpensive parts. In my experience, safes like Sentry, are much more prone to failure. I have also seen 20 year old Sentry products still in use

You mean like all those inexpensive cars like Honda and Toyota that came from overseas in the 80's? Or those inexpensive eectronics like Sony, Toshiba, and others that came from overseas in the 80's also? Sometimes they are just cheaper because where they are made and the labor that makes them.

[a1abdj]

UL72, Tests for Fire Resistance of Record Protection Equipment, provides for testing for Fire Endurance (section 5) and Fire and Impact (section 6).

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect. I deal with safe manufacturers on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure they aren't lying when they speak of sending their safes for testing, or having inspectors at their facilities.

I can't find them at the moment, but I actually have some photos of vault doors being tested at UL.

As far as the inexpensive.....

I don't mean anything similar to the cars. I mean they use the cheapest components available in order to bring the price down.

Let's take electronic locks for instance. Many chinese electronic locks are simply a circuit board and solenoid. No bounce protection, no manipulation protection, no relock protection, and otherwise very easy to defeat.

There are electronic locks that the government uses that cost 5 times what that Sentry safe costs, just for the lock. Obviously, these locks are a little more sophisitcated, and offer better reliablity and function.

A very basic, decent quality, mechanical lock runs about $150. How can you use a quality lock when the whole safe sells for $100?

[Playboypenguin]

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect.

Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

Manufacturers do their own testing under their own conditions and then produce whatever results they want which UL then endorses for a fee.

Let's take electronic locks for instance

How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

[a1abdj]

Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

I don't need to call them. They spell out everything in writing. You can see for yourself here:

http://www.ul.com/faq/index.html

A small sample of what is said:

Q: Can you tell me about your Representatives and factory inspections?

A: UL Representatives audit a manufacturer periodically to make sure that a product continues to be manufactured the same way it was manufactured when it obtained UL certification. Factory inspections are unannounced and are conducted on a periodic basis. The UL Representative typically checks random samples of the customer's current production against the product description (Follow-up Service Procedure) written by the engineer who originally evaluated the product. If the product contains materials that are not readily identifiable, UL may conduct sample testing.

Now this is a generic statement made regarding all UL listed products, not just safes. If you'll note, it specifically mentions an engineer who originally evaluated the product. Believe it or not....safes are actually sent to, and tested at UL facilities by professional safe & vault engineers.

How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

Many Sentry gun safes use a non mechanical, direct entry lock. No relockers, loose tolerances, and very little manipulation resistance. These types of locks also do not use relockers, and are easily opened by punching.

The locks I spoke of are mechanical locks. These locks have their own internal relocker, which are usually backed up by a secondary relocker installed by the manufactuer. These locks typicall have tight tolerances, and offer some manipulation resistance. Punching one of these locks will cause a theif more trouble that what it's worth.

[Playboypenguin]

Simply do as I stated and call them and demand verification of testing on a certain safe as I and another board memebr did awhile back. You will be told (after getting days of run around) what the actual process is and what laws govern it. You will then be referred to the manufacturer for the testing process details. Stop quoting sales ptches from the company themselves and call them on the carpet like I have said and see for yourself the reality of the situation...or do you just believe everything you read?

As for the locks...you clearly cited (when questioned about why you say they will fail) electronic locks. The safes you slammed do not have electronic locks. The locks on them do not have sloppy tolerences like you are saying now either. if I m off by one or two numbers either way it does not open. I have had similar locks for many years and never had one fail except in cases of rusting.

You are in the business. Point me towards some documented failure rates or some studies.

I am not saying that you don't get what you pay for or that I would not like a nicer, bigger safe. I am saying sometimes you pay for more than you are really getting and if someone doesn't have a few grand to throw away on a safe the cheaper alternatives are more than adequate. Their is no reason to go slamming them just because you want to sell a more expensive item.

[a1abdj]

Simply do as I stated and call them and demand verification of testing on a certain safe as I and another board memebr did awhile back. You will be told (after getting days of run around) what the actual process is and what laws govern it. You will then be referred to the manufacturer for the testing process details. Stop quoting sales ptches from the company themselves and call them on the carpet like I have said and see for yourself the reality of the situation...or do you just believe everything you read?

Here's what I do know. Insurance companies and many government agencies require UL ratings on their products. If it's not rated by the UL or equal foreign system, it's not considered rated. If it's not rated, it can't be used. If it can't be used, it has no value.

If you own a jewelry store, your insurance company wants to see UL ratings. If you own a bank, your vault door will have a UL rating (not counting doors made prior to ULs founding).

As for the locks...you clearly cited (when questioned about why you say they will fail) electronic locks. The safes you slammed do not have electronic locks. The locks on them do not have sloppy tolerences like you are saying now either. if I m off by one or two numbers either way it does not open. I have had similar locks for many years and never had one fail except in cases of rusting.

I'm not slamming these safes. I'm simply answering your question as to the "cheapness" of them.

Here's a general rule: Cheap safes are built cheaply. Expensive safes can be built cheaply. Cheap safes will NEVER be built expensively.

Consider this: Your $400 Sentry safe has to be built out of raw materals ($$) in a Chinsese factory ($$) using raw labor ($) for a profit ($$). These safes have to be trucked to the shipping terminal ($) and transported across the ocean ($$). Then they have to be shipped here in the US to their retail location ($$) and sold for a profit ($$).

Out of all of that expense, How much do you think they can afford to invest in the product?

You are in the business. Point me towards some documented failure rates or some studies.

There are many sources of this information, but it is not available to the general public for obvious security reasons. Don't take my word for it. Call your local safe techs and see what they have to say about them.

I am not saying that you don't get what you pay for or that I would not like a nicer, bigger safe. I am saying sometimes you pay for more than you are really getting and if someone doesn't have a few grand to throw away on a safe the cheaper alternatives are more than adequate. Their is no reason to go slamming them just because you want to sell a more expensive item.

I agree 100%, but I'll share a secret with you. I sell cheap imported safes myself. The difference is, I know what I'm selling, and can explain the differences to a consumer.

It seems that many people buy gun safes because they want a safe, and not because they need a safe. I suppose it's some sort of status symbol. People who need safes don't put the price high on the priority list. Many gun safe owners want to spend as little as possible.

If you want to keep your guns away from smash and grab burglars and children, then an inexpensive cabinet or deadbolted closet will provide you with that protection. These instances don't need safe for protection.

Here's what I tell my local customers:

If your gun safe is so secure, then why aren't the local banks using them? Surely they'd rather spend $500 on some gun safes than the $100,000 that they spend on those vaults that they use.

When it comes down to it, you do get what you pay for. Sometimes it's better to have a guy like me explain it to you first though. You won't get very much useful information from the guy at the sporting goods store.