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Old August 31, 2007, 07:29 AM   #26
shaggy
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When is the Lewis gun version coming out?
Already is...if you're looking for something with a large capacity, Lewis style pan drum. Check out the semiauto American 180 (www.american180.com) Perhaps its more of a cross between a Thompson and a Lewis. There are also transferable full auto versions available if you know where to look and have a thicker wallet.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:55 AM   #27
Bill Akins
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Leif Senior Member When is the Lewis gun version coming out?
Seriously, very impressive. Welcome.
Thanks very much for the welcome Leif. A Lewis gun? You want a WW1 fighter plane air cooled version or the Belgium rattlesnake radiator with shroud version?
Lol. Seriously though, I don't think it would be viable to use the ruger 10-22 for a top fed rotary tray mag. I could probably make one using an American 180 if I had one.
My next prototype #3 will have a standarized fake shell receiver and the ability to quick change from the water jacket to the air cooling shroud in a couple of minutes, so it will be like two dress up kits in one, using the same receiver. After that I want to put two 10-22's side by side and have them share a wider fake shell receiver and their barrels share the same larger diameter waterjacket. I will connect the two bmf activators with a short tube so when you turn the crank it fires both guns. Both mags will still be on the bottom and the left gun will have a shell deflector to direct its empties downward while the right gun will still spit out the right side. It should look a bit like the gardner gun which competed with the gatling in the late 19th and early 20th century. After that I really want to get a semi auto 20 gauge, (staying away from the 12 ga over 50 bore destructive device trap) turn it upside down and install it into a fake shell receiver with a crankfire. Install a waterjacket over the barrel to watercool it, and have a vertical gravity fed mag on its top feeding it like the gatlings had. Load it up with buckshot and can you imagine the firepower? Course, the first thing I want to do is get my air cooled and water cooled 10-22's into production. Also want to work on underwater weaponry and build an air powered multishot repeating speargun. But that will come much later. So many ideas and stuff to build, not enough lifetime to do it all.
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Old September 1, 2007, 12:30 PM   #28
jakeswensonmt
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The crank operation and rapid fire device is integral to that kit, whereas you can elect to install or not install a crankfire device on my design so that you could use my design without the crankfire device if you lived in one of those states.
IF I remember correctly from rugerforum.com, those 10/22 gatling kit guns require that the trigger be pulled, one round per barrel per shot. The crank just cycles the action.
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Old September 1, 2007, 12:39 PM   #29
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I have a buddy of mine that has a Ural motorbike with side car. He's the first guy I thought of that would seriously love one of these mounted to his sidecar for "SHOW" purposes ONLY.




<cough cough BS cough cough>





Kris
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Old September 1, 2007, 06:51 PM   #30
Bill Akins
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jakeswensonmt Senior Member.
IF I remember correctly from rugerforum.com, those 10/22 gatling kit guns require that the trigger be pulled, one round per barrel per shot. The crank just cycles the action.
Hi Jake.

I have had the opportunity to inspect the double barreled gatling kit up close.
The way it works is like this.....

There is a horizontal bar with two small projecting tips on its ends that fit into each trigger guard. This bar pivots in its middle when you turn the crank and therefore pivots left and right when you turn the crank. It is this bar that alternately trips the factory ruger triggers. The cranking of the crank handle has nothing to do with the ruger's action, all it does is pivot the bar left and then right to enable the little 90 degree tips on the ends of the bar to trip the two seperate ruger's triggers alternately. It does fire one round per barrel per shot. If the above sounds confusing just imagine this....two rugers laying on their sides with their triggers facing inward towards each other. Now imagine a bolt in the middle between the two trigger groups. Now imagine the bolt has an able to pivot bar on it. Now imagine the bar has a downward pointing little tit on each of its ends which fits into each trigger guard. Now imagine pivoting the bar and firing each gun alternately. Now imagine putting a crank on the bar to do that. That's it. That's how that double ruger crank kit you mentioned works. So you see that kit's rapid fire device is built in and integral to the kit. Therefore you could not own that in Calif or Minn which preclude ANY rapid fire type devices in their state. Whereas with my kit, if you lived in Calif or Minn you would simply not attach a bmf crankfire to my kit and instead just pull the factory trigger normally with your finger or rig up and use two seperate triggers attached to each spadegrip with two transfer bars going to the trigger and just pull each trigger seperately and alternately with your left and right hand. It is not illegal in Calif or Minn to have double triggers on a rifle to enable pulling with either hand, but it is illegal to have a crankfire rapid fire device in Calif or Minn. Since the double ruger gatling kit you described has its crankfire rapid fire device built in and integral to the kit for it to work, it is illegal in those two states.
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Old September 1, 2007, 07:06 PM   #31
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Somebody doesn't handload, I see...

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With .308 up to 45 and 50 cents a round, shooting is getting expensive.
My .308 rounds don't cost that much.

Regardless, that's a nice 10/22 conversion. It's definitely a twist on the last hand-cranked version I played with:

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Old September 1, 2007, 07:33 PM   #32
homefires
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My dad had one like that! It was all blue steel. He racked the Rang with it a few times and I don't know what happened to it after that! You could mess up someones weekend with one.


I seen one with the same set up for SKS, that had 20 round Mags. I don't think I would go there!
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Old September 1, 2007, 07:52 PM   #33
Bill Akins
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In my above post describing the operation of the double ruger gat, I said....
"just imagine this....two rugers laying on their sides with their triggers facing inward". I meant to say facing outwards. Seeing the pic of it that was posted reminded me of my mistake. Transfer/bellcrank bar still works as I described and it is integral to the kit and makes the entire kit illegal as a rapid fire device in Calif and Minn.
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Old September 1, 2007, 08:04 PM   #34
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Gewehr98 Senior Member
Somebody doesn't handload, I see...
My .308 rounds don't cost that much.
Regardless, that's a nice 10/22 conversion. It's definitely a twist on the last hand-cranked version I played with:
Hi Gewehr98.

Glad you liked my dress up kits. Thanks.

I do indeed handload. I have a Lyman turrent top, powder thrower, scale, and all the accessories and reload a variety of rounds and have been doing so for 25 years. For the folks who handload they can of course save a bundle on shooting .308. But not everyone who shoots reloads and a lot of fellas I see shooting machine guns at the range do not reload and instead just buy and shoot surplus ammo. It is those non handloading people who have to spend .45 to .50 cents a round for .308 which is getting expensive for them. I know several friends who own full auto 1919 and 1917's and even though they spent thousands on their full auto guns, they are getting tired of throwing $1000.00 downrange every time they go out to shoot them.

Comparing the picture you posted of the double barreled gatling ruger kit with the pictures of my kits I posted. Which kits do you think looks better and more like a true machine gun, the double gat kit, or my air cooled and water cooled kits? Also, if you lived in Calif or Minn and wanted to, but could not buy the double barreled gat kit because they are banned there, would you buy my kit instead and use double triggers mounted to each seperate spadegrip instead?
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Old September 1, 2007, 09:46 PM   #35
Gewehr98
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I don't want to play one design off of another, Bill.

They are neat each and of themselves, and if my budget allowed, I'd collect the whole set. They all look fun, and are a good way to convert money into noise quickly without the full-auto ATF paperwork.

How's that for a non-committal answer?

While stationed in Florida, I had a friend who had a semi-auto 1919A4 conversion in .30-06. Of course, I own a Dillon 650. It fed that 1919A4 just fine, and saved the owner considerable amounts of ammo money via bulk components, particularly when he cranked the handle in my reloading room, vs. feeding me Da Kine Diegos or bringing me Mountain Dew tribute payment. He also had to link the ammo into belts, there's some things that I just won't do.

As for Kalifornia, I'll never live there again, I can guarantee that. I even told Wife #2 I'd divorce her before that happened. I was assigned to a base near Sacramento for 10 years (that's about 9 years too many), and I was glad to get out of there in August of 1999 with my DOJ "illegal" gun and hicap magazine collection - guns that were perfectly fine in the Free States. Ronnie Barrett echoed my sentiments exactly when he just plain refused to sell his guns to that state. Truth be known, I quit worrying about firearm configurations for sales in that neck of the woods a long time ago. There are approximately 49 other states that don't give a rat's patootey, give or take a couple. That's more than enough to sell hand-cranked Gatling guns in.
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Old September 1, 2007, 10:06 PM   #36
Bill Akins
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Gewehr98 Senior Member
I don't want to play one design off of another, Bill.
They are neat each and of themselves, and if my budget allowed, I'd collect the whole set. They all look fun, and are a good way to convert money into noise quickly without the full-auto ATF paperwork.

How's that for a non-committal answer?
Fair enough.
No, on further reflection actually it isn't. I started this thread to ask people their opinions about my two dress up kits.
Another poster introduced the subject of the double barrel gatling kits. However since it was introduced and the person who introduced it was stating incorrectly how it operated, I wanted to clairify correctly how it does operate and to point out the fact that it is not legal in all states. That's how the whole double barreled gatling kit subject got started here and partially hijacked my thread from its stated subject matter of asking opinions on my designs.

Gewehr98, since you yourself mentioned the double barreled gatling kit and also posted a picture of it, I think it is only reasonable to conclude that not only were you comparing that kit to mine, but you were also wanting other readers to see the kit you were comparing to mine or you would not have posted a picture of it. If you did not want to answer my question or wanted to be non commital that is fine, but you certainly cannot reasonably say "I don't want to play one design off of another, Bill." When by your very mention of that other manufacturer's kit and posting a picture of it, you were doing just that. I don't mean to be rude and I hope you do not take me that way. But logic and reason dictate that you cannot mention another somewhat similiar dress up kit system, post a picture of it and then say you do not "want to play one design off of another" or that you are not comparing them. I appreciate that you like the double barrel kit and mine too and that you would like to own them both, but since you obviously were comparing the two I was just curious as to which one you thought looked the most like an actual real machine gun and which one you would prefer to own over the other. If you'd rather not answer, I can understand that, but it cannot be because you were not playing or comparing one design against the other. I don't mean to be rude, just logical.

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 2, 2007 at 02:19 AM.
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Old September 2, 2007, 10:38 AM   #37
Art Eatman
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And that's enough about Gatling guns and past efforts at money-into-noise playtoys. Or other folks' behaviors and motivations...

Stick with the thread's subject of this water-cooled critter.

Art
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Old September 3, 2007, 05:50 PM   #38
ibosley
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I like, a lot

I'm glad to have finally found a thread that caters to my desires.

I like your kits Bill, however I like the modern look of aluminum too. It depends on what era of machinegun you are talking about. For a vintage look I would definately purchase your kit. However most of america is into "tactical" stuff these days.

I'm interested in your water cooling technique, perhaps you could explain how the coolant is pumped through the vessel.

I want to design and build a quadramount 10/22 kit and have it hook to a swivel stud that can be mounted on a boat seat and take care of the crane and turtle population in middle TN... seriously.

I'm also wondering if anyone else out there is trying to make a high capacity magazine for the ruger. I don't mean 50 rounds, I'm talking about 500 rounds. Based on the design of the tear drop magazine I'm sure you could incorporate one that is larger but have it rotated by turning the same crank. I believe it can be done. I may engineer one in my spare time.

But seriously, I like where you're going with this. However I'm more into the modern look myself. But how much would you come off one of your kits for Bill?
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Old September 4, 2007, 03:06 AM   #39
Bill Akins
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ibosley
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I like, a lot
I'm glad to have finally found a thread that caters to my desires.
I like your kits Bill, however I like the modern look of aluminum too.
I'm interested in your water cooling technique, perhaps you could explain how the coolant is pumped through the vessel.
I'm also wondering if anyone else out there is trying to make a high capacity magazine for the ruger. I don't mean 50 rounds, I'm talking about 500 rounds. Based on the design of the tear drop magazine I'm sure you could incorporate one that is larger but have it rotated by turning the same crank. I believe it can be done. I may engineer one in my spare time.
But seriously, I like where you're going with this. However I'm more into the modern look myself. But how much would you come off one of your kits for Bill
Thanks ibosley, I'm glad you like it. By the way, my dress up kits are made primarily out of aluminum.

You asked how I was recirculating the coolant. Right now I am not pumping the coolant through the water jacket with any kind of pump. I could easily hook up say a small aquarium pump and power it with an inverter and batteries by having a tube go from a fitting on the water jacket to a radiator and then back to another fitting on the water jacket. Currently the way it cools is like the following.
Just today I attached a small automotive heater core radiator to the tripod. Attached to the drain plug on the waterjacket is a clear flexible tube that attaches to one of the two fittings on the heater core. I threaded the other fitting on the heater core and capped it with a brass cap that I had drilled a very small hole through the center of to enable pressure release to escape from the heater core from coolant expansion. If the coolant ever expands enough from heat, it will push into the hose and go into the heater core/radiator and cool down. Then I can pick up the radiator and hold it above the water jacket and let the now cooled collant run back into the water jacket. What keeps the coolant in the water jacket and does not just allow it to leak thru the drain plug and downward into the radiator and overflow out the tiny hole in the radiator's cap is the vacuum in the waterjacket. A slight trickle of a few drops of coolant go into the hose, but since the gasket sealed filler cap will not allow air into the water jacket unless it is unscrewed no coolant will leak out. Kind of like if you dip a straw into a glass of water, cover the top of the straw with your finger and lift it out and the water stays in the straw even though the bottom is open until you remove your finger and let the air in to replace the water. Vacuum effect. Took it out today and fired hundreds of rounds thru it and it didn't even warm up the water jacket so my radiator cooling system is probably overkill but it is there just in case. I think it would be interesting, but even more cooling overkill if I hooked up a recirculating pump to it plus it would be more cumbersome having a pump and battery to carry around with it. Would be easy to fabricate and hook up though if someone wanted to.

You asked about if anyone is working on a higher cap mag. I have a design in my head for a belt feed for the ruger 10-22 that I will be working on in the future. But I don't want to discuss that design publicly because once I have it perfected and prototyped I plan to patent it.

You asked how much I would charge for one of my kits. These are just prototypes that I am asking shooter's opinions on for now to gauge the market and what people like. I am not yet into production and I currently have no projection for what they might cost in the future if I marketed them.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:23 AM   #40
davo17
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Very cool! I love this stuff.
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Old September 4, 2007, 04:38 PM   #41
ibosley
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Yeah i wouldn't discuss that either. Its going to be a nice achievment. Have you used similar designs for inspiration? I think you can convert an AR-15 to a belt fed .22 but i'm not sure. I'm curious as to who your supplier is for your raw aluminum, and what alloy do you use?
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:25 PM   #42
Bill Akins
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I used a local metal supplier for the Aluminum and just bought scrap that they have in their scrap shed so I wouldn't have to buy 20+ ft of anything until I actually get into production. At this time I am not sure of the actual alloy metalurgical makeup of the aluminum I am using but I will find out when I go to buy it in bulk and get the same since what I am using seems to machine easy and works well for my purposes.

Other designs that I used for inspiration were the full size versions of the Browning air and water cooled machine guns and the Maxim/Vickers.

One day I may make one out of an American 180 horizontal drum fed .22 rifle and use the American Lewis and Russian Degteyarev designs for inspiration.
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Old September 5, 2007, 08:55 PM   #43
homefires
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My dad had one that you mentioned. It had two 10/22 back to back and was a hoooooot to shoot! You could clean up the rang at the 100 yard mark. He had two 3o round mags in each and I think it would fire like 5 times per crank. His looked like a mini twin 50;;;;;;;;

I don't know what he did with it , I'm sure he got tired of it and sold it off!

We had to do the range on Wednesday! No one was there!

Not to be Illegal like, But if you put a drill motor on one it would be like a damn Vulcan!!!!!!!

Louis Gun Thats funny! Going to take some snappy work to invert the tigger!
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Old September 5, 2007, 11:12 PM   #44
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homefires

Not to be Illegal like, But if you put a drill motor on one it would be like a damn Vulcan!!!!!!!

I wonder if you could add an electric drill to the NFA registry. You couldn't have it as an individual, but the SOT certainly could. They have done it with a shoelace, so why not a drill?
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Old September 6, 2007, 04:19 AM   #45
Bill Akins
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Louis Gun Thats funny! Going to take some snappy work to invert the tigger!
I would not be inverting a trigger because I wouldn't use the ruger 10-22 for making a Lewis version. As another member here named Shaggy pointed out, there is already another rifle that is the perfect candidate for making a lewis version. The American 180 rifle in .22 caliber that already has a high capacity horizontal drum mag.
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:49 AM   #46
ibosley
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Not trying to get off topic,but does anyone know what the American 180 costs? Its an interesting looking gun. I would like to know more about it.
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