Quality of todays firearms?

Robinson · October 12, 2014, 08:29 AM

Remington has mutiple recalls, everyone says buy older marlins, buy older smith and wessons, buy older pre 64 winchesters, buy older colt pythons, etc. Ruger firearms prices have gone up to rival smiths, $1000 for a good bolt action .22 from ruger?. Why does it seem like non american companies have better quality control, almost more innovation. CZ, Benelli, Browning, etc. I want quality american guns.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 12, 2014, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinson

Why does it seem like non american companies have better quality control,

Because, thanks in large part to the government-induced entitlement mentality prevailing in American society today, too many American workers expect to receive a day's pay but they don't expect that they should put in a full day of doing their jobs to earn that pay. The reason we don't get better quality is that the people doing the work don't care. They get paid whether they do a great job or a lousy job, and work rules make it extremely difficult to fire under-performing slugs.

4runnerman · October 12, 2014, 09:21 AM

^^^^^^^^ Hit it right no the head.

Robinson · October 12, 2014, 09:48 AM

Is it just me or does it seem that America relies too much on the corporate side of things. The top down approach doesnt always work. I think its possible we are going to have a "technical crisis" in the next few decades. Skilled craftman have been going away and almost frowned upon, while people with 4+ degrees walk in to management positions. What happened to the select handful of people who work thier way up to the top? Now if you know what your doing they keep you at the bottom because there isn't a replacement for smart technical people. Then if the technical people leave they need to hire two people to replace one.

Rembrandt · October 12, 2014, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinson

...I want quality american guns.

Plenty of American quality out there, unfortunately most American's want champagne at beer prices. Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Cooper, not to mention all the quality AR builders, Daniel Defense, Barrett, and others.

Pond, James Pond · October 12, 2014, 12:54 PM

Could it also be that quality suffers as a result of cost-cutting measures?

Between the rising costs of materials, energy, ever-growing marketing spending, modern society's insatiable appetite for litigation and share-holders' unwillingness to sacrifice their profits for a prodcut to be proud of, I think there are many reasons why the stuff we buy is not as good as it once was....

Gunfixr · October 12, 2014, 01:16 PM

It used to be that companies answered to their customers, always seeking to make them happy.
Now, companies only answer to the shareholders, only seeking to fill their pockets. That leaves the customers out in the cold.

Hiker 1 · October 12, 2014, 01:40 PM

All good points, but there is also an element in gun companies to produce something for everyone and get it out on the market asap.

Pond, James Pond · October 12, 2014, 01:55 PM

Quote:

there is also an element in gun companies to produce something for everyone and get it out on the market asap.

I think that is a pervasive of western economies as a whole. I don't know about the US, but in Europe people buy things not expecting them to last all that long. Clothes are "in" for a season or two, mobile phones will get upgraded every year or two, computers last about 5 years, cars are usually replaced when the lease deal expires. People don't expect longevity from products. Those that they do anticipate will last, such as guns may still fall foul of the "Latest new thing" and be replaced anyway.

We just don't seem to buy with the long-term in mind anymore.

jmr40 · October 12, 2014, 03:11 PM

Quote:

unfortunately most American's want champagne at beer prices.

Exactly!!!

Gun companies can make a decent quality gun, put it on the shelf at a fair price and it won't sell. While it sets there collecting dust folks buy the cheaper versions by the truck load. Companies can't stay in business building products that people don't buy.

And before someone complains about the high cost of guns today, if adjusted for inflation you can still buy a top end gun today for a smaller portion of your income than 40-50 years ago.

People think it awful to see a $1200 price tag on a rifle today. Adjusted for inflation that is about the same money as a common Remington 700 in 1974 which people bought without thinking were over priced. A typical budget gun that sold for just over $100 in 1974 should cost nearly $600 today. Yet we can go out and buy hunting rifles for well under $300. And then complain they aren't the same quality as a $1200 gun.

Oysterboy · October 12, 2014, 03:12 PM

All points well made guys. It's called planned obsolesce.

**4V50 Gary** · October 12, 2014, 03:30 PM

Roll pins. Used to be solid pins. Used to be screws before that. Used to be screws that were secured by a lock screw (think the old Mauser 98k or some of those earlier Colt DA revolvers).

MIM. OK, it works when used properly. But it used to be casted or forged. Casting is cheaper (cost wise) and forging was very labor intensive (not just forging but a lot of grinding/filing to make it fit).

Castings v. forgings. Casting is the old new back in the '60s when Springfield Armory was first trying it out to test its feasibility. They got shut down before it could be implemented on a wide scale measure. Castings must be thicker for equal strength. However, it's just as viable for fabrication as forging and is cheaper and more flexible (for the designer). I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Ruger.

Polymers. OK, some advantage like weight and no rust. But it used to be steel.

Plastic (hardware). Used to be wood, but wood swells, warps, puts pressure on the metal parts that affects the harmonics. Even if it is a safe queen, the stains can darken with age, hiding the wood's beauty. Conclusion: Wood for beauty is unrivaled, but plastics is for rough field use.

One area that hasn't affected quality is cold hammer forged barrels. For the speed that they produce a barrel and cost, they are excellent.

Finishes. The old finishes like hot rust blue and nickel plating don't hold a candle to Cerakote and Duracoat for durability. Express blue is one of the prettiest though for classic rifles. So, this is a yes and no response. Hot rust blue and express blue for pretty guns. Spray 'n bake for field guns.

Ultimately, what does the customer want and what can you provide for your customer? Consider that the smith must make a profit if (s)he is to remain solvent.

manta49 · October 12, 2014, 03:33 PM

I am not sure , maybe the same reason that America doesn't make quality cars compared with European and other car companies.

Mavrick79 · October 12, 2014, 03:55 PM

This thread reminds me of the saying we hear all the time. "Don't work to hard" Anytime someone says that to me I just roll my eyes. I guess its better to go into work and just half ass it like Homer Simpson.

Next time you get crappy service or a crappy product just remember, the guy was told not to work too hard because for some reason that's better.

rock185 · October 12, 2014, 05:18 PM

I think it boils down to what jmr expressed, people want CHEAPER. If not, how could Chinese products have become the incredible ,overwhelming success they have become in the American market. Seems like I heard of this US corporation, supposed to be the biggest in the world, that sells mostly chinese made products, cheap. I think it is called was WAL- something.

BTW, I see Ruger has just introduced their new plastic 9E 9MM pistol, MSRP $429.00. I guess the SR9 at $529.00 was just too rich for American tastes;-)

Quality is still available. But cheaply? Not so much........

rolomac · October 12, 2014, 05:34 PM

Pride of workmanship. You can see it in many older items. I have a Stanley molding plane for example - circa 1900. It's beautiful. Fits the hand and balances perfectly. Subtle scroll work where it isn't necessary but is attractive. Rosewood handles where a cheaper wood could have been used. Beautiful. The people who made it were proud of it and it shows. Buy a comparable tool today and it's designed to work for a while and then be thrown away and replaced with another plastic one. Pride of workmanship does still exist today but you have to look for it. And when you find it - it stands out.

rolomac

Skans · October 13, 2014, 07:10 AM

Some of the best quality firearms ever produced are being made today. If you don't realize it yet, you are in the Golden Era of firearms for civilian ownership. It just doesn't get much better than this!

Even for you wheel-gun lovers, maybe Colt no longer makes the Python, but S&W is still turning out some fine revolvers and if you have to have the best of the best, there is always Korth. Quality will cost you, but it is out there.

Loupgarou · October 13, 2014, 09:09 AM

I have a Remington 870 that was bought new six years ago and has not been fired yet. I don't know when it was manufactured, just when it was purchased by the original owner. I wonder if there is a discernible production date when the quality of this product apparently began to decline.

Colt46 · October 13, 2014, 09:17 AM

Back when mass production was first introduced(actually earlier, but whatever) a colt revolver cost $25 which was two months salary for a private of the Civil War era.
Now you can get a good quality(if the maker isn't rushing to keep up with demand) revolver for $800 bucks or less.
Isn't it Korth that makes a supreme quality revolver that retails for nearly $10,000?

bbqbob51 · October 13, 2014, 09:03 PM

In my opinion, most problems arise within a company because of the bean counters. Cutting costs and balancing the books are the most important thing in companies now and not necessarily putting out a quality product. I come to this from the perspective of someone who has worked in manufacturing for the past 30 years.
The pressure is relentless to take costs out of our product. It started by taking material costs out by making it out of thinner material and next was removing features that the bean counters thought the customer would not miss. Our product was a better item fifteen years ago; more rugged, more finished with smoother corners and edges and more features.
Additionally, we are doing more with less when it comes to personnel. When someone quits or retires we don't replace them. The remaining workers just work harder and harder so I do get a little sick and tired of those who blame the American work ethic for quality problems. The problem comes from the top who force employees to jam a finished good through not matter what is going on quality wise and keep threatening to move production overseas if they fail to do so. I can't help but feel the same thing is going on within gun manufacturing plants.

Crankgrinder · October 13, 2014, 09:22 PM

That and they all want everyone to work 12 hour shifts and do not want to pay much more than 12/hr.

KyJim · October 13, 2014, 10:00 PM

Not all guns of yesteryear were quality. Lots of cheap, fairly low quality Spanish semi-auto pistols. My first revolver was an RG (Rotten Gun) because that's all I could afford.

No doubt that some of the craftsmanship has been lost in today's mass produced guns but I think we always have a tendency to remember the past more fondly than it really was.

pete2 · October 13, 2014, 10:28 PM

It seems all gun mfgs suffer from poor quality control these days. I've had trouble with Browning, Beretta, Smith&Wesson, Ruger, Kimber & Taurus. I worked for BPS for a few years and there were problems with several others. Also, when you return them for warranty repair the results aren't always what you expect. With modern machines and materials we should be getting the best guns ever but it's not happening. I recently had a bad gun replaced and the replacement wasn't as good as the bad one, the repair on the second gun was a patch instead of a repair. Pretty sad and the foreign guys don't appear to be much better.

g.willikers · October 14, 2014, 01:37 PM

I'm gonna' print this discussion out on the printer and hang it on the wall.
Every time I think of getting a new gun, I'm going to read it again and then go clean and lube my old ones, instead.

Skans · October 14, 2014, 04:05 PM

I don't know why people think old guns are better and more reliable. Semiautos manufactured before 1980 were generally thought of as unreliable. Many semi-autos couldn't hold up to the high pressures used in defensive ammo today.

Then, let's not forget about all of those old top-break .32 and 38 S&W pea shooters - I've got a box of frames and parts that I like to look through for kicks and giggles - the barrels are thinner than some of the copper plumbing in my house.

Yes, there's the Colt Python. Ok, there's ONE REVOLVER who's quality is not being replicated today for a price anyone can afford. And, maybe a C or T Series Hi-Power and the P210.

Other than the few listed above, I really can't think of even one semi-auto manufactured before 1978 that doesn't have a better equivalent being made today.

October 12, 2014, 08:29 AM	#1
Robinson Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 77	Quality of todays firearms? Remington has mutiple recalls, everyone says buy older marlins, buy older smith and wessons, buy older pre 64 winchesters, buy older colt pythons, etc. Ruger firearms prices have gone up to rival smiths, $1000 for a good bolt action .22 from ruger?. Why does it seem like non american companies have better quality control, almost more innovation. CZ, Benelli, Browning, etc. I want quality american guns.

October 12, 2014, 09:21 AM	#3
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	^^^^^^^^ Hit it right no the head. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

October 12, 2014, 12:54 PM	#6
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Could it also be that quality suffers as a result of cost-cutting measures? Between the rising costs of materials, energy, ever-growing marketing spending, modern society's insatiable appetite for litigation and share-holders' unwillingness to sacrifice their profits for a prodcut to be proud of, I think there are many reasons why the stuff we buy is not as good as it once was.... __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

October 12, 2014, 03:30 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	From a gunsmith's perspective Roll pins. Used to be solid pins. Used to be screws before that. Used to be screws that were secured by a lock screw (think the old Mauser 98k or some of those earlier Colt DA revolvers). MIM. OK, it works when used properly. But it used to be casted or forged. Casting is cheaper (cost wise) and forging was very labor intensive (not just forging but a lot of grinding/filing to make it fit). Castings v. forgings. Casting is the old new back in the '60s when Springfield Armory was first trying it out to test its feasibility. They got shut down before it could be implemented on a wide scale measure. Castings must be thicker for equal strength. However, it's just as viable for fabrication as forging and is cheaper and more flexible (for the designer). I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Ruger. Polymers. OK, some advantage like weight and no rust. But it used to be steel. Plastic (hardware). Used to be wood, but wood swells, warps, puts pressure on the metal parts that affects the harmonics. Even if it is a safe queen, the stains can darken with age, hiding the wood's beauty. Conclusion: Wood for beauty is unrivaled, but plastics is for rough field use. One area that hasn't affected quality is cold hammer forged barrels. For the speed that they produce a barrel and cost, they are excellent. Finishes. The old finishes like hot rust blue and nickel plating don't hold a candle to Cerakote and Duracoat for durability. Express blue is one of the prettiest though for classic rifles. So, this is a yes and no response. Hot rust blue and express blue for pretty guns. Spray 'n bake for field guns. Ultimately, what does the customer want and what can you provide for your customer? Consider that the smith must make a profit if (s)he is to remain solvent. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 12, 2014, 05:18 PM	#15
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,091	I think it boils down to what jmr expressed, people want CHEAPER. If not, how could Chinese products have become the incredible ,overwhelming success they have become in the American market. Seems like I heard of this US corporation, supposed to be the biggest in the world, that sells mostly chinese made products, cheap. I think it is called was WAL- something. BTW, I see Ruger has just introduced their new plastic 9E 9MM pistol, MSRP $429.00. I guess the SR9 at $529.00 was just too rich for American tastes;-) Quality is still available. But cheaply? Not so much........ __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

October 12, 2014, 09:48 AM	#4
Robinson Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 77	Is it just me or does it seem that America relies too much on the corporate side of things. The top down approach doesnt always work. I think its possible we are going to have a "technical crisis" in the next few decades. Skilled craftman have been going away and almost frowned upon, while people with 4+ degrees walk in to management positions. What happened to the select handful of people who work thier way up to the top? Now if you know what your doing they keep you at the bottom because there isn't a replacement for smart technical people. Then if the technical people leave they need to hire two people to replace one.

October 12, 2014, 01:16 PM	#7
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	It used to be that companies answered to their customers, always seeking to make them happy. Now, companies only answer to the shareholders, only seeking to fill their pockets. That leaves the customers out in the cold.

October 12, 2014, 01:40 PM	#8
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	All good points, but there is also an element in gun companies to produce something for everyone and get it out on the market asap.

October 12, 2014, 03:12 PM	#11
Oysterboy Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 970	All points well made guys. It's called planned obsolesce.

October 12, 2014, 03:33 PM	#13
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	I am not sure , maybe the same reason that America doesn't make quality cars compared with European and other car companies.

October 12, 2014, 03:55 PM	#14
Mavrick79 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2013 Posts: 143	This thread reminds me of the saying we hear all the time. "Don't work to hard" Anytime someone says that to me I just roll my eyes. I guess its better to go into work and just half ass it like Homer Simpson. Next time you get crappy service or a crappy product just remember, the guy was told not to work too hard because for some reason that's better.

October 12, 2014, 05:34 PM	#16
rolomac Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2014 Posts: 4	Pride of workmanship. You can see it in many older items. I have a Stanley molding plane for example - circa 1900. It's beautiful. Fits the hand and balances perfectly. Subtle scroll work where it isn't necessary but is attractive. Rosewood handles where a cheaper wood could have been used. Beautiful. The people who made it were proud of it and it shows. Buy a comparable tool today and it's designed to work for a while and then be thrown away and replaced with another plastic one. Pride of workmanship does still exist today but you have to look for it. And when you find it - it stands out. rolomac

October 13, 2014, 07:10 AM	#17
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Some of the best quality firearms ever produced are being made today. If you don't realize it yet, you are in the Golden Era of firearms for civilian ownership. It just doesn't get much better than this! Even for you wheel-gun lovers, maybe Colt no longer makes the Python, but S&W is still turning out some fine revolvers and if you have to have the best of the best, there is always Korth. Quality will cost you, but it is out there.

October 13, 2014, 09:09 AM	#18
Loupgarou Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Location: Nunya Posts: 113	I have a Remington 870 that was bought new six years ago and has not been fired yet. I don't know when it was manufactured, just when it was purchased by the original owner. I wonder if there is a discernible production date when the quality of this product apparently began to decline. __________________ I know who I am. I'm the dude playing the dude disguised as another dude.

October 13, 2014, 09:17 AM	#19
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	Pricepoint Back when mass production was first introduced(actually earlier, but whatever) a colt revolver cost $25 which was two months salary for a private of the Civil War era. Now you can get a good quality(if the maker isn't rushing to keep up with demand) revolver for $800 bucks or less. Isn't it Korth that makes a supreme quality revolver that retails for nearly $10,000?

October 13, 2014, 09:03 PM	#20
bbqbob51 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 775	In my opinion, most problems arise within a company because of the bean counters. Cutting costs and balancing the books are the most important thing in companies now and not necessarily putting out a quality product. I come to this from the perspective of someone who has worked in manufacturing for the past 30 years. The pressure is relentless to take costs out of our product. It started by taking material costs out by making it out of thinner material and next was removing features that the bean counters thought the customer would not miss. Our product was a better item fifteen years ago; more rugged, more finished with smoother corners and edges and more features. Additionally, we are doing more with less when it comes to personnel. When someone quits or retires we don't replace them. The remaining workers just work harder and harder so I do get a little sick and tired of those who blame the American work ethic for quality problems. The problem comes from the top who force employees to jam a finished good through not matter what is going on quality wise and keep threatening to move production overseas if they fail to do so. I can't help but feel the same thing is going on within gun manufacturing plants.

October 13, 2014, 09:22 PM	#21
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	That and they all want everyone to work 12 hour shifts and do not want to pay much more than 12/hr.

October 13, 2014, 10:00 PM	#22
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Not all guns of yesteryear were quality. Lots of cheap, fairly low quality Spanish semi-auto pistols. My first revolver was an RG (Rotten Gun) because that's all I could afford. No doubt that some of the craftsmanship has been lost in today's mass produced guns but I think we always have a tendency to remember the past more fondly than it really was.

October 13, 2014, 10:28 PM	#23
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	It seems all gun mfgs suffer from poor quality control these days. I've had trouble with Browning, Beretta, Smith&Wesson, Ruger, Kimber & Taurus. I worked for BPS for a few years and there were problems with several others. Also, when you return them for warranty repair the results aren't always what you expect. With modern machines and materials we should be getting the best guns ever but it's not happening. I recently had a bad gun replaced and the replacement wasn't as good as the bad one, the repair on the second gun was a patch instead of a repair. Pretty sad and the foreign guys don't appear to be much better.

October 14, 2014, 01:37 PM	#24
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I'm gonna' print this discussion out on the printer and hang it on the wall. Every time I think of getting a new gun, I'm going to read it again and then go clean and lube my old ones, instead. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 14, 2014, 04:05 PM	#25
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I don't know why people think old guns are better and more reliable. Semiautos manufactured before 1980 were generally thought of as unreliable. Many semi-autos couldn't hold up to the high pressures used in defensive ammo today. Then, let's not forget about all of those old top-break .32 and 38 S&W pea shooters - I've got a box of frames and parts that I like to look through for kicks and giggles - the barrels are thinner than some of the copper plumbing in my house. Yes, there's the Colt Python. Ok, there's ONE REVOLVER who's quality is not being replicated today for a price anyone can afford. And, maybe a C or T Series Hi-Power and the P210. Other than the few listed above, I really can't think of even one semi-auto manufactured before 1978 that doesn't have a better equivalent being made today.

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