Taking the leap.... (long range shooting).

[toppermost]

I will be finishing up school soon and I will likely get a *significant* raise once I get my first job and I want / need a hobby. I am certain I would love to take up long-range shooting.

As a complete and total noob in that arena what advice can y'all give me?

I am leaning toward .308 (start small and go from there). Should I build an AR10 (I have built a few AR15's)? Should I save up and get an M1A? Or should I go with the tried and true bolt gun? What would be the most fun? Is a bolt gun "easier" to master? What about scopes? What is the minimum power i should look at? Variable? Should I zero at 250, 300, 400 yards (one thing I do know is that i will go with an "MOA" scope).

As I said I am total newbie when it comes to anything bigger than 5.56 and over 300 yards, any advice I can get is welcome.

[4EVERM-14]

www.centraljerseyhighpower.com/
A great start to learning about shooting at distance can be had by trying NRA Conventional High Power. 200, 300, 600 yards. Plus events out to 1000 yards.

[Polinese]

I think you get way more gun in a bolt action costwise. Savage and Remington are the go to standards for most folk. Semi auto's can compete accuracy wise but I still personally think the bolt gun is the way to go.

If you are going to go semi auto and want accuracy I think the ar is the way to go. Not doubting the M1A, and I'm sure the M1A fan club will be here soon enough but it seems to me (again total opinion and conjecture) that they need more work to be AS accurate as a bolt gun or ar platform.

As for scope power the USMC made due with a fixed 10x for decades, thats what I started with too. I'm really only switching to variable because there's more options. I won't recommend any specific scope without an idea of your budget. That being said if you are gonna use your reticle for hold overs, range estimation etc I prefer a mil/mil style scope or there are a few moa/moa scopes.


I usually zero at 200 yards, then you can build up your data from there.

[snolden]

For the first 2-3 years, a $300-400 used sporter bolt action and a $400 scope will shoot better than you ever will be able.

A savage 10 or 11 or even a long action 110 can be found for under $300 at times.

Most of the above will keep you in business out to 800 yards.

[tobnpr]

Bolt or autoloader, the choice is yours. Be prepared to spend more, for a similar level of accuracy in an autoloader, though. Used to be, semi's couldn't compete on the same field as bolts guns- not anymore.

One of my sons chooses an AR-10 in .308 for his long range rifle. It shoots about 3/4 minute- which is damn good for a factory rifle, borderline for 1000 yard shooting though. Which brings me to my question- what's "long-range", to you?

Proper form and trigger control are the same regardless of the platform-you just don't have to rack a bolt to press off the next shot with the semi.

Zero is usually done at 200 yards, but can be done at any distance. Fewer turns of the turret when dialing up to range when you use a 200 zero.

Optics, where to start...
You'll find opinions all over the place here. What we all could agree on (probably) is minimum 10X. On a limited budget, a fixed power scope will be of better quality per $ spent- the SWFA SS scopes are a good example of fixed glass, good quality, and low"ish" cost. However, fixed optics don't allow you to dial down to acquire (or re-acquire) the target as easily by expanding your field of view.

If you're going to be shooting targets at known ranges (as at a rifle range)- second focal plane (SFP) scopes are probably the best for you. The reticle stays thin and doesn't obscure the target as you zoom in to max. magnification.
If you need ranging capabilities, go with the first focal plane (FFP)- and mil-radian instead of the m.o.a.

There are those that will eschew high magnification- and I say "phooey".
Aim small, miss small. It's as simple as that.
If mirage, or other conditions dictate, you can always dial down high power.

More specifics on budget, and your expected shooting distance would allow specific suggestions.

[Bart B.]

Semiautos are about 1/4 to 1/3 less accurate than bolt guns; best of each compared. Too many parts to go back to exactly the same place after each shot. And their triggers aren't quite up to what good bolt gun ones are. All of which is why bolt gun scores at the Nationals (and elsewhere) are higher than those shot with semiautos.

Reloading's easy with bolt guns; semiauto's rarely have their bolt face squared up and that precludes best accuracy. Semiautos typically shoot most accurate with new cases. Or with fired cases from bolt guns whose bolt face is squared up, but then they're not all that good for accuracy.

There's little difference in scores shot on bullseye targets between scopes and metallic aperture sights. One holds as steady with one as the other and the aiming area about some point on the target's the same. Scope's shoot a little higher scores because they can be held off a bit for wind changes as well as see them easy whereas metallic sights cannot do that.

Put your money into the accuracy issues with the rifle. A cheap scope shoots bullets closer to the point of aim than an expensive one on a rifle with poor accuracy.

[4runnerman]

308 is a good long range rifle, but there are better choices out there
6MM, 6.5 in multiple choices, 260. Bolt would be a good option. Savage, Remington. Your zero will be ranged by how far you plan on shooting. I zero at 300 yards. As mentioned your scope will be the big cost. Quality can not be cut here. Must hold zero, must track very well. Hand loads will also be a thing you will want to get into.

[Bart B.]

I strongly disagree about the scope having to be the biggest cost involved.

Shot too many long range matches placing in the top few winning my share of them with probably the cheapest scope on the firing line. Also did many-shot test groups at long range the smallest of any with those same, cheap scopes.

Old Weaver T20 and T16 scopes; best sight buy for the money these days.

Note those 24 and 26 caliber rounds mentioned will have half to two-thirds the barrel life of a .308 Win.

The Ben Avery Shooting Facility a few miles north of Phoenix has one of the best long range sites on earth. Contact them to find out what events are for new shooters.

http://azgfdportal.az.gov/shooting/basf

Then contact one of the clubs to learn more details about when to shoot long range:

http://www.azgfd.gov/outdoor_recreat...lubListing.pdf

[DaleA]

I'll come at this from a different direction. (Mostly because the heavy hitters that know a LOT more about high power rifles and long range shooting have already posted.)

WHERE are you going to be doing your long range shooting? That is, where are you going to practice?

Look around and find a range and some guys you'll like to hang around with and then see what they are shooting and ask them for advice about rifles/loads/shooting technique.

You'll make some good personal connections and probably have a lot of fun. IMhO most gun guys are happy to talk about their sport to anyone that will listen and 80% (or much higher at some clubs) are not jerks.

[4runnerman]

Ok Bart I will give you the Weavers. I know of 3 people that shoot bench rest using the old T-36. Clarity is not the best, but they sure do track good. I have thought about getting one, but that darn 44mm is just something I can't get used to. I will rephrase my post- You need a scope that tracks good. Yes the 308 has a much better barrel life, but factor in the extra powder cost, extra bullet cost. If you shoot a lot you have spent almost enough extra to buy a new barrel every year or 2 I don't have a 260 but I have heard good about them. No Idea what powder charge is on them.

I can tell the OP- Once you start you will be addicted. It is as fun as it is humbling at times.

[Bart B.]

4runnerman, Midway's prices for Sierra's 26 caliber 142's are the same as Sierra's 30 caliber 175's; Sierra's 30 caliber 190's are a few cents more each. The 260's charge weights are 3 to 4 grains less than those for the .308's. Regarding barrel lives; 3000 rounds in a .308 takes 18 pounds of powder and 2000 rounds in a .260 takes 11 pounds. 7 pounds more in the .308. Less than half the cost of a good barrel installed.

I mention the .308 as it can be used in more long range events than other cartridges. It's easier to reload for; charge weights are not finicky as it's not an overbore capacity round. However, despite the .260's shorter barrel life as an overbore capacity round, it's easier to shoot accurate due to its recoil being less. And the .260's got over twice the barrel life of the popular 6.5x.284 round used in long range matches; 2000 vs 800 rounds.

Bottom line on cartridge selection; any one selected is a compromise so learn the pros and cons of each then make your choice according to what's important to you.

My corrected vision's been 20-15 for decades (my eye doctors think my eyes are still those of a teenager) and comparing my old Weavers to those costing 5 times as much, the difference is insignificant to my aiming eye. When the mirage is running and those heat waves distort the target image, the difference becomes even less. The difference is more easily seen a half hour before sunrise when it's cool and the atmosphere doesn't distort the view. Even then, when I'm testing ammo and rifles for accuracy, the Weavers are good enough for me.

[toppermost]

Great advice everyone. Really appreciate it.

I would love a Remington 700 simply because it its history. But am kinda leaning toward a a semi-auto because it can do double duty as defensive platform (I have no interest in hunting).

I am going to stick with .308 and an MOA scope simply because I am familiar with it and want it to be relatable to my AR's and I have all of the mental calculations down pretty well. I would probably be willing to spend 300-400 on a scope (its going to be a hobby- not an obsession).

Question: with your "average" 10x scope, if I zero at 200 how much (ballpark) hold-over would be needed at various distances? 600, 800 yards?

[cw308]

I shoot benchrest 308, The rifle is a Rem 700. Starting off long range with AR's? 200 yards is hard enough, if we are talking accuracy.

[4runnerman]

Good choice and have fun.

[HJ857]

Two questions that cross my mind right off the bat are:

1) do you hand load?
2) what is your expectation or desire for precision?

No matter what scope you get, use a 20 to 30MOA offset mount.

[joed]

Some really great information. Few years ago I bought a rifle for just this purpose. It's a .308 topped with a Weaver T36 with dot.

Problem I have is I can't find anywhere close to me where I can shoot it.

[tobnpr]

Question: with your "average" 10x scope, if I zero at 200 how much (ballpark) hold-over would be needed at various distances? 600, 800 yards?

"Hold over" is not related to scope magnification, it's ballistic-dependent. Same for any magnification...

If you really plan on holding, instead of dialing up, make sure you get a mil-dot reticle. Again, for holding over a mil-mil system would be far easier and intuitive to use. Don't be intimidated by a mil-mil system, it's not difficult to master. Just sayin... I use minute of angle because I dial, and don't range...but if that's your end game, mil-mil would better serve you.

Dope for my son's AR-10, 175 SMK, 2800 fps mv, 200 yard zero:

600 yards: 13.69 minutes
800 yards: 23.30 minutes
1K yards: 35.47

Take a look at the SWFA scopes, here:

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Classic-Rifl...s--C12502.aspx

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by toppermost

But am kinda leaning toward a a semi-auto because it can do double duty as defensive platform (I have no interest in hunting).

I read this a lot and think it's a bit unrealistic and misguided: Asking a defense gun to do target duty, or a target gun to do defense duty is a lot to ask, and most likely compromising both. Get a target rifle for your LR shooting (bolt would be my recommendation), then work out your defense needs separately.

I'm surprised no one mentioned it yet, but if you're going to take an interest in LR target shooting, you really ought to learn to reload your own ammo. Factory ammo (especially match-grade) is expensive, and may not be particularly accurate out of your rifle. It'd be a shame to drop coin on a nice target rifle and scope, but be hobbled by your ammo.

[oldmanFCSA]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/King-...85?sk=timeline

A lot of discussion on this, some positive, some negative.

[precision_shooter]

.308 would be a good starter for sure. It's what I learned on and have owned and still own rifles chambered in this caliber.

I would caution against using 1 rifle as a do-all (Hunting, Target Shooting, Home Defense), if you are serious about being as accurate as possible at longer ranges. While 1 rifle could certainly fill all of those roles, you would be better served in the long run to have dedicated platforms for the given tasks. I would use a bolt action for target shooting and build you an AR-15 for HD.

As far as scopes go...
Nothing wrong with MOA or MIL systems, with a few cautions.

Scope Mfg's:
There are not nearly as many scope mfgs who make a MOA reticle scope as there are that make some from of a MIL reticle. This will considerably cut down on the available choices you have for quality optics vs reasonable price.

Reticle vs Turrets:
Whatever scope you go with, you will want to ensure that the reticle subtensions match the turret adjustments. MOA reticle with MOA turrets or MIL reticle with MIL turrets. This is more prevalent with MIL reticles where mfgs use a MIL reticle but keep the same 1/4 MOA turrets as on there other scopes. This would mean you would have 1 measurement for dialing elevation (MOA) and another measurement for holding for windage/elevation (MIL)... .10 MIL = .34377 MOA, 1.0 MIL = 3.4377 MOA.

Second Focal Plane scopes:
For both MOA and MIL reticle subtensions, your actual subtension will not be true except on 1 power setting. Most mfg set this to be Maximum magnification. This is not an issue if using a fixed power scope like a 10x or 15x, But is another variable to calculate when using variable power scopes and wanting to use holdover for Windage or Elevation. Lets say you have a 6-24x scope. The reticle is marked in .5MOA subtensions (each has mark is .5MOA). Only when your scope is set to 24x will this be a true .5 MOA. If you have the scope set to 6x, the .5 MOA subtension measurement will actually be .125 MOA, at 12x it's .25MOA, at 18x it will be .375MOA. At every magnification in between it will vary slightly from the next. This is due to the fact that the reticle size remains the same as you increase or decrease magnification of the target.
First focal plane scopes do not have this issue because as you increase or decrease magnification of the target, the size of the reticle also changes at the same rate. Therefore your reticle subtensions remain constant across all magnification ranges for the scope.

Hope this helps a little and is not too confusing.

[precision_shooter]

"Hold over" is not related to scope magnification, it's ballistic-dependent. Same for any magnification...

If you really plan on holding, instead of dialing up, make sure you get a mil-dot reticle. Again, for holding over a mil-mil system would be far easier and intuitive to use. Don't be intimidated by a mil-mil system, it's not difficult to master. Just sayin... I use minute of angle because I dial, and don't range...but if that's your end game, mil-mil would better serve you.

Dope for my son's AR-10, 175 SMK, 2800 fps mv, 200 yard zero:

600 yards: 13.69 minutes
800 yards: 23.30 minutes
1K yards: 35.47

This is true, the holdover calculation doesn't change for a given load. But if using a SFP scope, Depending on your magnification setting, will determine the actual subtension measurement of your reticle and require a different hold based on that magnification.

For example, the 600 yard hold you have listed above using a 6-24x SFP scope with MOA reticle (Assuming true subtension occurs on max magnification):
When looking through the scope, 13.69 minutes in the reticle is true only at max magnification. Change the magnification down to 18x and in your reticle you only hold 10.27 minutes, 12x would be 6.85 minute hold and at 6x it's only a 3.42 minute hold all for the same 13.69 minutes of drop you are compensating for...

[mapsjanhere]

My suggestion, start with a decent Rem 700 in 308. Use the money you save over an AR-10 to buy a Mossberg 500 for self defense. Once you learned to shoot that rifle to "it's the rifle, not my shooting", you can start upgrading. McMillan or AI Stock, blueprint the action, if needed with a barrel change and/or caliber change, Nightforce or similar scope etc. Long-range shooting is more of a journey anyway...

[green_MTman]

people on this forum give iresponsible advice.they say they can kill and elk with a .243 at 600 yards.mostly neck shots in perfect wind conditions.

the 7mm rem.ultra mag. using a 160gr accubond or what not can kill any game in north america at 600 yards and deer at 1200 yds in any wind condition with inperfect heart or lung shots.

people brag but in the REAL wilderness weather changes and a good rest can be hard to find on a winding mountain slope.

300 and 338 mags are not nececary and .308 and 260's are not practical at 600 to 800 yards in real wilderness sitiuations

[Nathan]

Frankly, I can't tell your budget by your hints. If I were looking to get into long range shooting with some accuracy, I would get whichever sounds more fun:

$2500 - A savage 12 in 308 with a muzzle brake attached and a Burris 5-25 XTRII.

$3500- An AR10 built with a 24" Kreiger barrel, Geissle trigger, free float forearm, PRS stock with a Burris 4-20 XTR II.

[precision_shooter]

people on this forum give iresponsible advice.they say they can kill and elk with a .243 at 600 yards.mostly neck shots in perfect wind conditions.

the 7mm rem.ultra mag. using a 160gr accubond or what not can kill any game in north america at 600 yards and deer at 1200 yds in any wind condition with inperfect heart or lung shots.

people brag but in the REAL wilderness weather changes and a good rest can be hard to find on a winding mountain slope.

300 and 338 mags are not nececary and .308 and 260's are not practical at 600 to 800 yards in real wilderness sitiuations

Ummm..... What!?

Besides making no rational sense, that also has nothing to do with this thread...