I bought this old Patterson

madcratebuilder · June 25, 2009, 08:18 AM

knowing it is a 'aged' reproduction. Big brown dropped it yesterday and I have had an opportunity to look it over. I don't think it's an Italian copy. I have two other Paterson, a older Replica Arms and a Pietta copy. The arbor on the new arrival is larger in diameter and other dimensions are just a bit larger. Barrel is about 1/8 longer than the Texas Paterson, backstrap is a hair wider. I have not removed the grips, but they look old, and wood is very hard to fake. The wedge screw has half the head broken off and the hammer screw is stripped. Two things you would not expect to find on a antiqued revolver.

Does anyone know if they made counterfeit copies back in the 1840's? The top of the barrel stamping is not totally correct. It's stamped all upper case and "-COLT PATENT-" should be "-Colt's Pt-"

No matter what it is, I like it. Give me your opinions.

I'll add it has serial numbers everyplace a real Paterson does.

olmontanaboy · June 25, 2009, 08:24 AM

Just out of curiosity, what condition is the bore?

madcratebuilder · June 25, 2009, 08:43 AM

It has 11 grooves, pitted, rusty, not much of a forcing cone. The end of the barrel is odd, all most a reamed appearance the last 1/4 inch or so. Crowned with a countersink tool maybe, their is a 1/16 inch 60* bevel at the end.

It has the nipples that require a four pin tool to remove. I believe the Uberti copy had these. I'm not sure about the originals.

Smokin_Gun · June 25, 2009, 11:01 AM

Dang MCB either way you surely have somethin' there ... You have a Uberti Paterson and a Pietta don't you?
Wouldn't it be great ifin it turned out like that Brevet Walker I din't buy for $1,000 cause it was too beat up and not much proof...It sold to a collector in Germay for $10,000

Oh well that wasn't my time :O)
Hope this is your time...

madcratebuilder · June 25, 2009, 11:21 AM

I don't have a Uberti copy to compare. I'm not sure who made my Replica Arms Paterson. This aged specimen is different from the two repros I have.

Old Smoker · June 25, 2009, 12:55 PM

The serial number on the pic, 887. Could this be an original? I just checked wikpedia and Patent arms only produced 2350 units. Some came with a longer barrel as an acessory. I'd do a through web serch, failibng that, I would call an antique dealer.

Noz · June 25, 2009, 01:18 PM

All the Italians have proof marks on them. If this one has no proof marks then it might be time to start getting excited.

Hawg · June 25, 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

All the Italians have proof marks on them. If this one has no proof marks then it might be time to start getting excited.

They're easily removed. That's the first thing anybody does when faking a gun.
I'm not up on Paterson's by any means but the ones I've seen pics of had the writing in script and they do say Colt's not Colt. However I'm sure I haven't seen pics of all the variants. What bothers me the most about it is the letters were stamped one at a time. Some are out of line and some are stamped deeper than others. If it was mine I think I'd find out if the screw threads matched original Paterson's. It's still a nice piece with an original look to it and you might just have the real deal.

Noz · June 25, 2009, 03:25 PM

I have an original 1851 and the serial numbers do not line up on it.
Did you pull a screw to see if the threads are metric?

Missoura Don · June 25, 2009, 04:31 PM

Does it have the bands on the barrel end?

Missoura Don · June 25, 2009, 04:35 PM

I forget now...were all the records prior to the fire destroyed? Maybe Colt may have some info on that particular serial number...just a thought, anyways, love them Patersons!

Hawg · June 25, 2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

I have an original 1851 and the serial numbers do not line up on it.

Serial numbers are one thing. The barrel markings are another.

madcratebuilder · June 25, 2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Does it have the bands on the barrel end?

Not that I can see. There is a very light band around the recoil shield.

Quote:

I'm not up on Paterson's by any means but the ones I've seen pics of had the writing in script and they do say Colt's not Colt.

The printing on the barrel is the fly in the ointment. All Paterson I have photos of, hundred or more. The Barrel is marked in block letters, upper and lower case. 'Colt's Pt' is correct, not 'COLT PATENT'. It's so blatantly wrong, if I was counterfeiting a gun I would at least get the marking right.
I recall old Colt ad's saying "don't buy a counterfeit Colt" so did they make counterfeit Patersons back in the late 1830's, early 1840's?????

Hawg · June 26, 2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

I recall old Colt ad's saying "don't buy a counterfeit Colt" so did they make counterfeit Patersons back in the late 1830's, early 1840's?????

Who would have had the tooling to make revolvers then?

Noz · June 26, 2009, 01:43 PM

Hawg, don't let this topic fall off of the board. I'm interested in what your final findings are.
The Colt versus Colt's bothers me more than anything else seen or stated so far.

mec · June 27, 2009, 02:59 PM

Who would have had the tooling to make revolvers then?
__________________
colt was pretty agressive about patent infringements-particularly in europe where they occured enough to vex him. this was somewhat after the paterson period.

Smokin_Gun · June 27, 2009, 05:46 PM

Cooper Arms, Manhatten Arms, and FAUL...would have had the tooling to do so. Yes?

DrLaw · June 28, 2009, 07:42 AM

http://www.manhattanfirearms.com/

Maybe not Pattersons in 1836.

The Doc is out now.

Smokin_Gun · June 28, 2009, 08:44 AM

Nice Manhatten site Dr. Law...probly not in 1836 but I believe the Paterson was made long after 1836 simply for the Mods alone thru at least 1848.
But anyone with the right tooling "could" make the Paterson. Not sayin' it was done but could have been.

mec · June 28, 2009, 05:11 PM

from what I've read, John Ehlers sued Colt/Paterson Arms company and won the right to assemble and market the revolvers. There is some indication that he did so and even filled a naval contract in possibly 1845.
The dixie capper is purely decorative but not engraved. It will not enter the nipple areas of a Uberti replica

James K · June 28, 2009, 07:47 PM

I am no Paterson expert, but I have never seen or heard of one with the barrel marking individually stamped in modern font block letters. They are all marked in script letters; the 7" barrel guns were roll stamped, while the others appear to have been hand engraved. I think it safe to say that no matter who made that gun, Sam Colt had nothing to do with it.

Did they make fake Patersons in 1840? I don't know, but they made them at least as early as the 1930's and have been making them ever since. A fellow named Penrod Otis Musser worked in the 1930s and 1940s and did such a good job of making copies that his guns are sought after by today's collectors for themselves, and actually are rarer than real Patersons, though not as valuable.

There have been, as you know, Italian copies, but before that there were copies made in Belgium and Spain. While the makers claimed to be making innocent repros, many of those later were "aged" and passed off as original. But even there, the ones I have seen had the script barrel lettering and got it right, although I saw a picture of a "one off" fake with "Patterson" on the barrel. Many were made in small shops in the hope of turning a quick buck, and I think the gun shown is one of those. It appears to be a rather bad fake, not even rating as a good reproduction. Incidentally, the original gun did use those four pin nipples; a few repros have used standard nipples.

Still, at the right price, those fakes are interesting, and if done right will serve to show the way the Paterson was put together, which is of interest in itself.

Jim

enyaw · June 29, 2009, 07:52 AM

John Ehlers took the stock of parts and all from Colt and sold Patersons in hardwasre stores and the like. Maybe some of those were marked differently once he got them?
I'd look at the screw threads and the diameter of the screw holes in case the screws were re-made and the holes enlarged.
The places the serial number would be stamped would be filed off to get a new fake number there. That could be measured...the thickness of the parts where the original numbers would have been filed off (if it had Italian derial numbers).
A gun that rusted with the pits all over it wouldn't have any cylinder scene left on it I'd think.
I'd check the serial number against what numbers are known to exist. The number could be a faked missing number like it finally surfaced. You know...if someone faked the gun they wouldn't use a number that was already known to exit.
It would be cool even if the gun was a real old repro. I never have seen any really old repos anywhere so they must be rare.
MadCrate...have you taken the gun apart?
Wood hard to fake? Put it in oil...bake it in a hot oven to dry it back out...till it gets crackes and all.....
Old wood is usually shrunk some. That's an indication.
Anyway...it's a cool gun MadCrate!

June 25, 2009, 08:18 AM	#1
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I bought this old Patterson knowing it is a 'aged' reproduction. Big brown dropped it yesterday and I have had an opportunity to look it over. I don't think it's an Italian copy. I have two other Paterson, a older Replica Arms and a Pietta copy. The arbor on the new arrival is larger in diameter and other dimensions are just a bit larger. Barrel is about 1/8 longer than the Texas Paterson, backstrap is a hair wider. I have not removed the grips, but they look old, and wood is very hard to fake. The wedge screw has half the head broken off and the hammer screw is stripped. Two things you would not expect to find on a antiqued revolver. Does anyone know if they made counterfeit copies back in the 1840's? The top of the barrel stamping is not totally correct. It's stamped all upper case and "-COLT PATENT-" should be "-Colt's Pt-" No matter what it is, I like it. Give me your opinions. I'll add it has serial numbers everyplace a real Paterson does.

June 25, 2009, 08:24 AM	#2
olmontanaboy Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Northeast for now Posts: 266	Just out of curiosity, what condition is the bore? __________________ Olmontanaboy No good deed goes unpunished. A loaded gun, a faithful dog,,, consider yourself lucky.

June 25, 2009, 11:01 AM	#4
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Dang MCB either way you surely have somethin' there ... You have a Uberti Paterson and a Pietta don't you? Wouldn't it be great ifin it turned out like that Brevet Walker I din't buy for $1,000 cause it was too beat up and not much proof...It sold to a collector in Germay for $10,000 Oh well that wasn't my time :O) Hope this is your time... __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

June 25, 2009, 12:55 PM	#6
Old Smoker Member Join Date: June 11, 2009 Location: Northren Wisconsin Posts: 63	Might be authentic original. The serial number on the pic, 887. Could this be an original? I just checked wikpedia and Patent arms only produced 2350 units. Some came with a longer barrel as an acessory. I'd do a through web serch, failibng that, I would call an antique dealer.

June 25, 2009, 03:25 PM	#9
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	I have an original 1851 and the serial numbers do not line up on it. Did you pull a screw to see if the threads are metric? Last edited by Noz; June 25, 2009 at 03:43 PM.

June 25, 2009, 08:43 AM	#3
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	It has 11 grooves, pitted, rusty, not much of a forcing cone. The end of the barrel is odd, all most a reamed appearance the last 1/4 inch or so. Crowned with a countersink tool maybe, their is a 1/16 inch 60* bevel at the end. It has the nipples that require a four pin tool to remove. I believe the Uberti copy had these. I'm not sure about the originals.

June 25, 2009, 11:21 AM	#5
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I don't have a Uberti copy to compare. I'm not sure who made my Replica Arms Paterson. This aged specimen is different from the two repros I have.

June 25, 2009, 01:18 PM	#7
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	All the Italians have proof marks on them. If this one has no proof marks then it might be time to start getting excited.

June 25, 2009, 04:31 PM	#10
Missoura Don Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Missoura Posts: 80	Does it have the bands on the barrel end?

June 25, 2009, 04:35 PM	#11
Missoura Don Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Missoura Posts: 80	I forget now...were all the records prior to the fire destroyed? Maybe Colt may have some info on that particular serial number...just a thought, anyways, love them Patersons!

June 26, 2009, 01:43 PM	#15
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	Hawg, don't let this topic fall off of the board. I'm interested in what your final findings are. The Colt versus Colt's bothers me more than anything else seen or stated so far.

June 27, 2009, 02:59 PM	#16
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Who would have had the tooling to make revolvers then? __________________ colt was pretty agressive about patent infringements-particularly in europe where they occured enough to vex him. this was somewhat after the paterson period.

June 27, 2009, 05:46 PM	#17
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Cooper Arms, Manhatten Arms, and FAUL...would have had the tooling to do so. Yes? __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

June 28, 2009, 07:42 AM	#18
DrLaw Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Wild Western Illinois Posts: 559	http://www.manhattanfirearms.com/ Maybe not Pattersons in 1836. The Doc is out now. __________________ General McAuliffe said it best "Nuts."

June 28, 2009, 08:44 AM	#19
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Nice Manhatten site Dr. Law...probly not in 1836 but I believe the Paterson was made long after 1836 simply for the Mods alone thru at least 1848. But anyone with the right tooling "could" make the Paterson. Not sayin' it was done but could have been. __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

June 28, 2009, 05:11 PM	#20
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	from what I've read, John Ehlers sued Colt/Paterson Arms company and won the right to assemble and market the revolvers. There is some indication that he did so and even filled a naval contract in possibly 1845. The dixie capper is purely decorative but not engraved. It will not enter the nipple areas of a Uberti replica

June 28, 2009, 07:47 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am no Paterson expert, but I have never seen or heard of one with the barrel marking individually stamped in modern font block letters. They are all marked in script letters; the 7" barrel guns were roll stamped, while the others appear to have been hand engraved. I think it safe to say that no matter who made that gun, Sam Colt had nothing to do with it. Did they make fake Patersons in 1840? I don't know, but they made them at least as early as the 1930's and have been making them ever since. A fellow named Penrod Otis Musser worked in the 1930s and 1940s and did such a good job of making copies that his guns are sought after by today's collectors for themselves, and actually are rarer than real Patersons, though not as valuable. There have been, as you know, Italian copies, but before that there were copies made in Belgium and Spain. While the makers claimed to be making innocent repros, many of those later were "aged" and passed off as original. But even there, the ones I have seen had the script barrel lettering and got it right, although I saw a picture of a "one off" fake with "Patterson" on the barrel. Many were made in small shops in the hope of turning a quick buck, and I think the gun shown is one of those. It appears to be a rather bad fake, not even rating as a good reproduction. Incidentally, the original gun did use those four pin nipples; a few repros have used standard nipples. Still, at the right price, those fakes are interesting, and if done right will serve to show the way the Paterson was put together, which is of interest in itself. Jim

June 29, 2009, 07:52 AM	#22
enyaw Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2008 Posts: 134	John Ehlers took the stock of parts and all from Colt and sold Patersons in hardwasre stores and the like. Maybe some of those were marked differently once he got them? I'd look at the screw threads and the diameter of the screw holes in case the screws were re-made and the holes enlarged. The places the serial number would be stamped would be filed off to get a new fake number there. That could be measured...the thickness of the parts where the original numbers would have been filed off (if it had Italian derial numbers). A gun that rusted with the pits all over it wouldn't have any cylinder scene left on it I'd think. I'd check the serial number against what numbers are known to exist. The number could be a faked missing number like it finally surfaced. You know...if someone faked the gun they wouldn't use a number that was already known to exit. It would be cool even if the gun was a real old repro. I never have seen any really old repos anywhere so they must be rare. MadCrate...have you taken the gun apart? Wood hard to fake? Put it in oil...bake it in a hot oven to dry it back out...till it gets crackes and all..... Old wood is usually shrunk some. That's an indication. Anyway...it's a cool gun MadCrate!