Coupla interesting gun show finds

[Doc Hoy]

Went to the gun show in Norfolk, VA today. I came home with two Remington .44 brass frame revolvers.

The first is an essentially unfinished Richland Arms kit. It is labeled "Texas New Army" which I believe translates into "Meaningless marketing ploy" Machine marks on the revolver are very pronounced. The brass has not been touched with a file or sandpaper. But the action on this pistol is really sweet.

The other is a revolver identical to the first accept that it is marked Garrett Arms, Norfolk, VA Again, the lockup and indexing is very nice on this pistol.

Both pistols have what I think is a "Palmetto" stamp on the cylinder. But I could not find my reference to manufacturers marks. Anybody able to help out, I woul dbe much obliged.

I gave 200.00 for these two pistols and the guy threw in a brand new Pietta .44 Remington cylinder with nipples.

[arcticap]

Interesting that one was imported locally in the same locality as where the show was held.
Did the seller know anything about how old they were or did he say if he was the original purchaser?
Sometimes a seller will know the original owner and have some info. to pass along by word of mouth.

[Hawg]

Palmetto logo was a palm tree. Here ya go Doc. It's a PDF file. https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...Proofmarks.pdf

[Doc Hoy]

Articap,

No, the guy did not know anything about the origin of the revolvers. He did not even remember where they came from. This is the first I have heard of Garrett Arms. In fact, Jim Davis never heard of them either. There are no date codes on this revolver. I have been eyeballing this revolver for about the last three shows. The vendor's prices have been too high and I guess scaring folks off. Actually I think I may have paid a little to much for them. The gun bag and the extra cylinder made the deal a little sweeter.

Hawg,

Thanks for posting the PDF. I have saved it this time where I can find it. I was right in my recollection of the Palmtree.













Some photos of poth of the revolvers. These are not great looking pistols.

[Doc Hoy]

There was a guy had a Signature Series Colt 1860 with the box for 350.00.

I am going back to the show with more money. Photos of that too if he still has it.

[Hawg]

Garrett was an importer in the 70's and early 80's that mainly dealt in high quality rifles. I don't know who he imported them from but they are still in high demand. it seems unlikely for him to deal in quality rifles and not pistols tho. Palmetto's rep has never been good.

[Doc Hoy]

Missed the Signature Series. He sold it for a song earlier this afternoon.

Yes on the quality of these revolvers. They are very similar in that the finish (what there is of it) is not good. The final finishing of the metal is extremely poor. The bluing (if that is what it is) is not at all pretty.

But I have to say that the action is pretty darned good.

The bore on the revolvers is in very good condition.

[Hawg]

I think you got a good deal but I think you'll find the internal parts pretty soft.

[mykeal]

Same marking characteristics as my Palmetto/Richland Arms Spiller & Burr:

[starbuck125]

i 've seen those "texas new armies before in a couple mags before, just never fancied the look of a brass remmey. but thats just me. thinkin you got a good deal on the pair, plus the extras do make it sweeter.
knowing you doc, and the miracles that i've seen of your work on misused revolvers. they'll turn out to be beauties.
keep us posted .

[Doc Hoy]

Mykeal,

Yes... a comparison of the photos of your Spiller and Burr with the Richland Remington is really telling. Neither revolver was well finished at the factory. To me the milling machine marks left on the surface before the revolver was blued is simply the factory cutting corners. I am glad that practice is a thing of the past.

Hawg,

Both of these revolvers are quite tight but then neither has been cycled very much. I think the Richland Arms has been played with extensively. If the quality of the internals matches the quality of the finish on the exterior surfaces, you are dead right.

Starbuck,

I heartily agree about the brass frame. To some it is a strength issue. But to me it is more of an appearance issue. I will start on the Richland Arms piece but I will wait on the Garrett Arms revolver. I am engaged in an offline discussion with BPRevolver about it. He may want to document the pistol in its present condition because of the relative rarity.

I thank you for your kind remarks but I might add that my confidence has been shaken on this most recent project. (The 1862 Colt pocket) I have the new hand and have made it work in the revolver but now the revolver is jamming up on about every second or third cycle. I may be selling this one for parts.

[Hawg]

I am engaged in an offline discussion with BPRevolver about it. He may want to document the pistol in its present condition because of the relative rarity.

Yeah he's documented one of mine too. I have two rare ones, one he didn't even know existed. Sometimes it seems like rare ones aren't that rare

[Doc Hoy]

You have to ask yourself a coupla questions,

1) "How many 58 Remingtons might Garrett Arms have contracted for?"
2) "How likely is it that Garrett Arms would have imported only Remingtons?"
3) "If these revolvers were in competition with other imported Remingtons of equivalent value what did they sell for?"

There is a post on another forum that refers to a "Frank" (and in a different post "Frank Garrett.) who apparently was the principle in Garrett Arms. The post was from 2009 and refers to the firm as no longer in business.

In another post on a different forum from 2005, the OP refers to a rifle that was manufactured by Palmetto and declares it is of high quality.

Here is an interesting quote:

"I have known Frank Garrett for about 35 years. He went into production of the Sharps rifles with the idea that they would be the best replicas around. He spent a lot of time riding herd on the factories in Italy to keep the quality up but eventually it just wasn't worth the effort and he cancelled the contracts.
After he got out of the business the factories continued to manufacture rifles marked "Garrett" but they didn't meet the specs Frank had insisted on.
While Frank was selling the rifles he would inspect them when they came into the country and if they passed his inspection he stamped the stock on the left side with an inspectors stamp similar to a government inspectors stamp on a military weapon. When looking at a rifle marked Garrett always check to see if it has the inspectors stamp. If not, it is one of the later rifles which did not meet his specifications. Frank still has a booth at the gun shows in Richmond and Norfolk, Virginia. If I remember correctly he said that the total number of rifles he imported was close to 2000.

If he was married to the idea of quality in his rifles, it is likely it would have fed over to the revolvers. Other revolvers of that period at least have a better finish. That to me is a disconnect.

[Hawg]

Seems like most of the odd ones are Remington's and brass frames at that. I have two, both Remington Navies. One is a PR imported by FIE and is brass. The other is a steel frame Pietta imported by Pioneer Arms.

[Doc Hoy]

I wonder if the relative finnickiness of the Colt design, coupled with a somewhat misunderstood (at that time) environment in brass frames either

1) created more complaints than the complex logistic system was capable of withstanding

or

2) caused a market gravitation to Remingtons when it came to brass revolvers.

I know that when I was buying revolvers in the seventies and early eighties, the Colts were (or seemed to be) every bit as popular as they are now. But I can't say if brass Colts were dignificantly more popular that steel Colts.

I can tell you that the brass 1851 Navy Colt was very popular but I think that was because of two things:

1) It was the cheapest revolver out there.
2) The brass frame appealed to the aesthetic driven crowd rather than serious shooters.

I know that I had both and when I would show my revolvers to someone who knew nothing of BP shooting, they always fondled the brass revolvers first.

[Doc Hoy]

ASP 1858 and ASP 1860. These pistols appear to have seen very little if any service. $145.00 a piece including a Flambeau pistol case with each one.

On the Remington, the sight and the lever catch are dovetailed in place. Seems to be a technique that is not uncommon in ASP Remingtons.

[Bishop Creek]

I know that when I was buying revolvers in the seventies and early eighties, the Colts were (or seemed to be) every bit as popular as they are now. But I can't say if brass Colts were dignificantly more popular that steel Colts.

I can tell you that the brass 1851 Navy Colt was very popular but I think that was because of two things:

1) It was the cheapest revolver out there.
2) The brass frame appealed to the aesthetic driven crowd rather than serious shooters.

I too remember buying cap and ball pistols in the late 1960s and early '70s. The brass framed 1851 Navy's were around $50 to $60 but the steel framed models were going for around $110 to $125, a lot of money back then. Many felt that the brass framed models were "authentic" back then due to a lot of articles and publicity of the so called Civil War "Confederate" brass models.

Even now, Cabelas and others still promote any brass framed model pistol, be it a Colt or Remington style, as a "Confederate" pistol and beginning black powder shooters seem to be most attracted to these.

It is worth noting that my first cap and ball pistol, purchased in 1969, was an 1851 brass frame model that shot loose within a couple of years. When I bought my first steel framed Remington for $95 back around 1978 or so I felt like I had really moved up in the world.

[starbuck125]

i gotta agree with ya'll , brass framed are easier on the wallet. i can understand why somebody would reach for the brass framed, instead of the blued, its this way i think caused they've got a way different look that they're not used to see in modern firearms.
now i don't have any brass at the moment, but i got a chromed 51 navy steel framed, a blued 51 navy and a 58 rem in 5 1/2" barrel. out of the 3 they usually ask to hold the chromed navy, then the 58.
my brother inlaw is thinking of coming over to the darkside, i let him shoot my navy awhile back. anyway, he asked about the brass 51, said that he like its look alot better than the steel framed. kinda reminds me of the age ole question.... colt... remmie...colt... remmie.....my answer get both....

[starbuck125]

doc,
i almost forgot to say congrats on your sweet find!!! good price on them, plus cases???? at those prices???.
i'm beginning to think that you might be tryin to out do fingers an crate..

[Doc Hoy]

Agree! As I was typing my first post on the purchase of the two Remingtons I was hoping that the discussion did not revisit the issue of Colt versus Remington. So your comment is right in line with my thinking. As you imply, that is a topic that has been more than sufficiently explored.

Regarding Fingers and Crate, I don't even come close to being the collectors they are. I consider them to be true collectors. I am more of an accumulator. With the purchases at the gun show, I am up to 32 revolvers not considering an ROA which I don't include when I speak of my revolvers.

The reason I say that is that both Fingers and Crate seem to have certain revolvers or certain categories of revolvers which they deliberately seek to own. In my case, I just want everything. The guy who sold me the Remingtons spoke of a LeMat he had taken in trade and then turned around probably on the same day. He did not even know what it was but his description was unmistakable.

I don't like the looks of the LeMat. I think it looks more like a sewing machine. I am not partial to the appearance of the Starr either. But if I were able to find a good deal on either of these models, I would buy one just so I could say I have one.

As regards the price of the ASP revolvers I think that deal was only just a little better than average. The reason I say that is that either of these revolvers has an equivalent example on sale at Cabelas for 200.00. So for an additional 55.00 I could have bought a new specimen. Pietta steel frame .44s sell on the Gunbroker for right at 150.00 to 180.00 I am indeed happy to have the Flambeaus because now I have something to take my stuff to the range in. I do believe that the quality of the pistols made by ASP is very high. I have others and I like them. But I would not say it is any better than present day Piettas.

[Fingers McGee]

Nice haul DOC. I may have to move back your way. None of the gunshows around here ever have anything close to the deals you've been able to find out there.

Looking forward to your documenting the 'cleaning up' of these two revolvers.

FM

[Doc Hoy]

I must say that the pickins are sort of slim. I only saw six replica BP revolvers in the entire show. The Colt 3rd Gen I described was snapped up by another person.

The remaining revolver was a Remington replica that the vendor was trying to pass of as an original. It had those fake ivory grips with the fake eagle carving. The previous owner had swapped out the barrel for one with a target sight. He wanted 700.00 but my thought is that the grips were worth more than the pistol. I have seen the pistol at three shows.

The best show I have attended in the last year was the one in Dade City Florida. I could easily have spent 2000.00 and still left a coupla good ones on the tables. (That is Bill Akins' stompin grounds.)

[Doc Hoy]

Folks,

Just checked the two revolvers over and found the subject marking on the top of the barrel on both of the ASPs.

Anyone familiar with "Sile"?

[mykeal]

Sile is/was an importer based in NYC. Don't have definitive information beyond that, although I recall seeing it out there in the cloud somewhere.

[Fingers McGee]

According to Blue Book:

SILE DISTRIBUTORS
Previous distributor, importer, and previous manufacturer located in New York, NY until 1999. Importer and distributor of Investarms and Pedersoli brand.
In addition to distributing a wide variety of firearms and related accessories (including the mfg. of stocks and grips), Sile Distributors also had some firearms "private labeled" to their specifications.