Frankenstein 1911s - Page 2

freebird72 · July 24, 2012, 11:48 PM

For the people who used these 1911s, how did the compare to today's 1911s? I assume they were "loser" then most of today's 1911s. Did this make them any more reliable that today's tighter 1911s?

dsk · July 25, 2012, 12:36 AM

The USGI 1911/1911A1 pistols were assembled to more relaxed tolerances than most of today's "factory customs", but they were not sloppy when new. I have a couple of like-new pistols that are easily as tight as any brand-new Colt. The reputation for "sloppy" pistols came from the fact that the military continued to use pistols last made in 1945, so that by the time of Vietnam many of them were pretty well-worn or else had been rebuilt at least once. By the early 1980's it was pretty sad, as most of them were long past their sell-by date and badly in need of replacing.

As for reliability, USGI pistols ony had to feed one load- 230gr FMJ, aka "ball" ammo. Each one was test-fired by factory workers and also inspected by the Ordnance Department, and rejected if something was amiss. Furthermore there were no cheap cast or MIM parts, everything was forged or barstock steel (except for the stamped trigger in later guns), and the parts weren't fitted so ridiculously tight that crap in the action would cause them to choke. Today's guns are often inspected only at random, sometimes not even test-fired, and corner-cutting is done at every opportunity in both quality of the components as well as how they're fitted. Some of them are even too tight in the wrong areas thanks to the inability to fit them properly like a good gunsmith would do.

By the way some USGI pistols, particularly Remington Rand's, were manufactured and assembled almost entirely by women. I would think knowing that their sons, husbands, or boyfriends were dying in some stinking, un-named corner of the world gave them added incentive to do a good job every day they were on the line.

freebird72 · July 25, 2012, 12:56 AM

Thank DSK, information like what you just offered is the exact reason I come to these forums.

Please fellow forumers, keep this kind of information coming. I am thinking of making a new thread, but I do not know what to ask. I basically just want as much information on War time 1911s pistols as I can get. Especially from WWII and Vietnam(I do know that most 1911s used in Vietnam were carry overs from WWII).

Also, any pictures of War time 1911s would make my day.

RickB · July 25, 2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

(I do know that most 1911s used in Vietnam were carry overs from WWII).

And plenty were carry overs from WWI.

freebird72 · July 25, 2012, 01:15 PM

Did anyone "accidentally" bring a 1911 home from after the War?

freebird72 · December 30, 2012, 06:07 PM

I am hoping more people would like chime in on this, as I am still looking for more stories, info, and pics.

I mean any type of story,any pic and any info you can give me.

Japle · December 30, 2012, 07:55 PM

I was an armorer in the Army for 9 years. During that time, all our sidearms were 1911s made between 1942 and 1945. I had a serial number sheet showing when and by which company all the guns were made. It was common to find slides from one manufacturer on a frame from another. Finding any gun that looked original was rare and probably a coincidence. A frame might be from Remington and have a Remington slide, but odds are that slide hadn’t shipped with that frame.

The 1911 I used in Army competition was a bit odd. The serial number was SM11131. The SM was for “Service Match”, meaning the gun started as a .22 and was switched to .45 in a depot rebuild at some point. That gun was quite accurate, very reliable and shot right on the sights for me. I won my first “LEG” points with it.

Sadly, all those great guns were probably destroyed after the switch to the M9.

ClydeFrog · December 30, 2012, 08:33 PM

I'm not a firearms expert but I did serve in the US armed forces & used a old Remington Rand model 1911a1 for 12mo.
I read somewhere; I think The Living With the 1911 from Boatmanbooks.com that the US armed forces & DoD/War Dept ended production of new 1911a1 .45acp pistols around 1946 or 1947. For decades, the US military just used spare parts & service work to maintain the 1,000s of .45acp sidearms produced during all of WW2.
Not until the new M9 9mmNATO in 1985 came out, did the military pistols change.

Clyde

Japle · December 30, 2012, 08:52 PM

Production of GI 1911s stopped in 1945. Commercial production started in 1946.

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm

polyphemus · December 30, 2012, 09:54 PM

Typically those would not have SN's they were scrap and might have been
deliberately damaged.They were repaired somehow and sold,they are collectors'
items and fairly valuable.

Jim Watson · December 30, 2012, 10:06 PM

Well, yes, but...

It is illegal to possess a firearm with deleted serial number, as was done to many pilfered sidearms. It is up to you to prove that your "lunchbox gun" never had a number.

July 25, 2012, 12:36 AM	#27
dsk Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2001 Posts: 1,603	The USGI 1911/1911A1 pistols were assembled to more relaxed tolerances than most of today's "factory customs", but they were not sloppy when new. I have a couple of like-new pistols that are easily as tight as any brand-new Colt. The reputation for "sloppy" pistols came from the fact that the military continued to use pistols last made in 1945, so that by the time of Vietnam many of them were pretty well-worn or else had been rebuilt at least once. By the early 1980's it was pretty sad, as most of them were long past their sell-by date and badly in need of replacing. As for reliability, USGI pistols ony had to feed one load- 230gr FMJ, aka "ball" ammo. Each one was test-fired by factory workers and also inspected by the Ordnance Department, and rejected if something was amiss. Furthermore there were no cheap cast or MIM parts, everything was forged or barstock steel (except for the stamped trigger in later guns), and the parts weren't fitted so ridiculously tight that crap in the action would cause them to choke. Today's guns are often inspected only at random, sometimes not even test-fired, and corner-cutting is done at every opportunity in both quality of the components as well as how they're fitted. Some of them are even too tight in the wrong areas thanks to the inability to fit them properly like a good gunsmith would do. By the way some USGI pistols, particularly Remington Rand's, were manufactured and assembled almost entirely by women. I would think knowing that their sons, husbands, or boyfriends were dying in some stinking, un-named corner of the world gave them added incentive to do a good job every day they were on the line. Last edited by dsk; July 25, 2012 at 12:42 AM.

December 30, 2012, 08:33 PM	#33
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	GI 1911a1 series .45acp pistols.... I'm not a firearms expert but I did serve in the US armed forces & used a old Remington Rand model 1911a1 for 12mo. I read somewhere; I think The Living With the 1911 from Boatmanbooks.com that the US armed forces & DoD/War Dept ended production of new 1911a1 .45acp pistols around 1946 or 1947. For decades, the US military just used spare parts & service work to maintain the 1,000s of .45acp sidearms produced during all of WW2. Not until the new M9 9mmNATO in 1985 came out, did the military pistols change. Clyde

December 30, 2012, 09:54 PM	#35
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	lunch box pistols Typically those would not have SN's they were scrap and might have been deliberately damaged.They were repaired somehow and sold,they are collectors' items and fairly valuable.

July 24, 2012, 11:48 PM	#26
freebird72 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2010 Posts: 241	For the people who used these 1911s, how did the compare to today's 1911s? I assume they were "loser" then most of today's 1911s. Did this make them any more reliable that today's tighter 1911s?

July 25, 2012, 12:56 AM	#28
freebird72 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2010 Posts: 241	Thank DSK, information like what you just offered is the exact reason I come to these forums. Please fellow forumers, keep this kind of information coming. I am thinking of making a new thread, but I do not know what to ask. I basically just want as much information on War time 1911s pistols as I can get. Especially from WWII and Vietnam(I do know that most 1911s used in Vietnam were carry overs from WWII). Also, any pictures of War time 1911s would make my day.

July 25, 2012, 01:15 PM	#30
freebird72 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2010 Posts: 241	Did anyone "accidentally" bring a 1911 home from after the War?

December 30, 2012, 06:07 PM	#31
freebird72 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2010 Posts: 241	I am hoping more people would like chime in on this, as I am still looking for more stories, info, and pics. I mean any type of story,any pic and any info you can give me.

December 30, 2012, 07:55 PM	#32
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	I was an armorer in the Army for 9 years. During that time, all our sidearms were 1911s made between 1942 and 1945. I had a serial number sheet showing when and by which company all the guns were made. It was common to find slides from one manufacturer on a frame from another. Finding any gun that looked original was rare and probably a coincidence. A frame might be from Remington and have a Remington slide, but odds are that slide hadn’t shipped with that frame. The 1911 I used in Army competition was a bit odd. The serial number was SM11131. The SM was for “Service Match”, meaning the gun started as a .22 and was switched to .45 in a depot rebuild at some point. That gun was quite accurate, very reliable and shot right on the sights for me. I won my first “LEG” points with it. Sadly, all those great guns were probably destroyed after the switch to the M9.

December 30, 2012, 08:52 PM	#34
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	Production of GI 1911s stopped in 1945. Commercial production started in 1946. http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm

December 30, 2012, 10:06 PM	#36
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Well, yes, but... It is illegal to possess a firearm with deleted serial number, as was done to many pilfered sidearms. It is up to you to prove that your "lunchbox gun" never had a number.