To Tavor or not to Tavor - Page 2

Fishbed77 · June 1, 2014, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Please post some pics or describe the build. I'm considering building some type-of pistol monstrosity. I kind of want to make a "lady's gun" out of a Rock River 9mm pistol, 10.5", with magpul FDE plastic furniture, a FDE sig brace, with just irons.

Pretty close to what you are describing in 5.56mm.

Bart Noir · June 5, 2014, 07:28 PM

This is a link to a comparison between the Tavor and the new KelTec bullpup.

No, not the one in 7.62x51. I mean a new gen bullpup in 5.56x45.

Tavor versus KelTec

The KelTec has a very nice trigger in this review.

Bart Noir

Bart Noir · June 5, 2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Something else that pushed me away from the Tavor was the fact that I am a lefty. The Tavor can be set up for left-handed shooting,

I have no experience with the Tavor, but do remember a video where the reviewer fires it lefty without doing the left-hand conversion. The ejected brass going out the right side never touched his face.

This is not the video but does show some shooting-lefty-from-righty-Tavor footage:

Tavor Review

So maybe the lefty conversion is not necessary.

Bart Noir

ttarp · June 5, 2014, 09:27 PM

I imagine if varies from gun to gun regarding shooting lefty with a righthand rifle. I tried a few shots lefthanded with my brothers Tavor, and didn't care for kissing the brass, ymmv.

Unlicensed Dremel · June 5, 2014, 11:12 PM

What's the lightest 5.56 bullpup? Tavor, AUG, FS2000, what?

Theohazard · June 6, 2014, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart Noir

I have no experience with the Tavor, but do remember a video where the reviewer fires it lefty without doing the left-hand conversion. The ejected brass going out the right side never touched his face.

I didn't watch the video (I'm on a limited 3G connection right now), but when I shoulder a Tavor left-handed the ejection port is right by my mouth; I'm pretty certain I'd be eating hot brass if I fired a right-handed Tavor that way.

That's not to say there aren't different ways to shoot it that avoid the issue, but a normal left-handed shooting stance can easily put brass in your mouth.

Pond, James Pond · June 6, 2014, 01:53 AM

So, OP...

Have you hammered out a final decision?

I know what I'm hoping, but have you decided the same?

The suspense is building over here!!

marine6680 · June 6, 2014, 01:49 PM

Still a little up in the air.

The soonest I would be getting anything will be the end of summer.

Also looking at a 6.8 build. Start with an upper and swap it out with my 5.56 upper until I build the lower.

And Pond... If you ever fond yourself on this side of it, in South Carolina... Feel free to let me know, and you can shoot anything I own... So you won't need live vicariously anymore. Heck PSA is up the road and rent out belt fed machine guns... You can have a heck of a time.

Pond, James Pond · June 6, 2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

And Pond... If you ever fond yourself on this side of it, in South Carolina... Feel free to let me know, and you can shoot anything I own... So you won't need live vicariously anymore. Heck PSA is up the road and rent out belt fed machine guns... You can have a heck of a time.

Be careful!!
If you find me with my tent pitched in your front yard for six months at a time, together with an open tab at the local ammo stockist, you'll only have yourself to blame!!

Still, if you find yourself in Estonia, consider the offer reciprocated although I dare say I'd be getting the better shooting bargain of the two!!

leadcounsel · June 6, 2014, 04:07 PM

I love the bullpup design. Own an MSAR and really like it.

However, for civilian purposes, it's very hard to justify paying two or three times the cost of an AR15 or AK47 to shave off what, 6+/-" inches OAL. What real, practical advantage does one get for the extra $1000?

No plans on selling the MSAR, but if I were buying again I would probably opt to not until if/when they are priced competitively to the AR15.

marine6680 · June 6, 2014, 04:14 PM

Its all good... Shooting is better with other people around.

Just always been what I do... be generous and have fun.

HKFan9 · June 7, 2014, 11:13 AM

I would get a Tavor over a AUG MSAR. As for an AR pistol with the brace... I am building one right now because I had an extra lower sitting around however cutting a 5.56 barrel down to 10'' is not ideal, especially when you can have a Tavor in 16.5 or 18' and be around the same OAL length.

The Tavors shoot great, but my only gripe with it is budget in money off the start for a good optic. The flip up iron sights are god awful.

As for the brass being steaming hot and hitting you while left handed shooting... its simply not true. If you shoot .223 spec ammo in it the brass will slightly graze your chin... if you are shooting 5.56 spec ammo the brass skips away from your face off the shell deflector and is a non issue.

The Tavors controls are pretty much ideal for a bullpup, which is where the AUG falls a little short. Don't get me wrong, the AUG is a nice firearm, but the controls are lacking, the Tavor can be manipulated faster.

The trigger on the Tavor is not THAT bad... we forget this isn't a hunting rig or a competition rifle, it was bred for the battle field. The trigger is expected to be heavier than some due to it being a bull pup. There are after market triggers.... OR you can improve it FOR FREE by taking out an extra spring. The trigger itself has an extra spring in it meant if the rifle is being using in VERY adverse conditions, removing it makes it no less reliable, and people have even tested it in sand and mud with still good results.

I am guilty of it too but I think most of us on TFL get all bent out of shape on what kind of mud and dirt our guns can run it... when they are more likely to have Starbucks split on them than any real amount of dirt.

I am not a huge bullpup fan, but the Tavor is a nice gun... They can be had for around $1600-$1700 now, which isn't all that more than an AUG, and cheaper than a FS2000.. which to me is a horrid design.

Heres a couple videos from our buddy here about the points I mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dizuRNL0HIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEY1XdQf_JA

ttarp · June 7, 2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

As for the brass being steaming hot and hitting you while left handed shooting... its simply not true. If you shoot .223 spec ammo in it the brass will slightly graze your chin... if you are shooting 5.56 spec ammo the brass skips away from your face off the shell deflector and is a non issue.

Not my experience. Agree with the rest of your points however. As far as the sights go, the AUG doesn't come with anything, but with a Tavor at least you'll have something right off the bat.

HKFan9 · June 7, 2014, 12:59 PM

This is true... I just feel like the rear sight is a little too tight of a view for my liking, once an optic is installed it is a SWEET package.

Theohazard · June 7, 2014, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKFan9

As for the brass being steaming hot and hitting you while left handed shooting... its simply not true. If you shoot .223 spec ammo in it the brass will slightly graze your chin... if you are shooting 5.56 spec ammo the brass skips away from your face off the shell deflector and is a non issue.

I don't understand how this is possible. I've never shot a Tavor left-handed, but I've shouldered it left-handed. And when I do, the ejection port is right next to my mouth. Judging from the way the brass ejected when I shot it right-handed, if I shot a Tavor left-handed the brass would go right into my mouth.

Sarge · June 7, 2014, 02:02 PM

I handled my first Tavor yesterday. The flip-up sights are usable and you can, of course, drill the aperture a little bigger if you find it too small. The controls were conveniently located. There is a rail on top but you're going to need really high irons because of the way its stocked.

The trigger was downright awful and this is the curse of bullpups- by design, they must have a lot of Rube Goldberg junk between the trigger and sear. If the object of having a rifle is precision shooting, such an arrangement defeats the purpose from the outset.

HKFan9 · June 8, 2014, 10:10 AM

Theo, watch the second video I posted about. MAC shows shooting it right handed and left handed shooting with no issues and explains he same thing I did. I can shoot the Tavor the same way with no issues. I know everyone is built differently however I would look at my stance and head position and cheek weld before I blame the gun (not saying it's your case) also if you were just handling the gun was their optics on it or were you just trying to aim down the rail to get a feel? Sometimes people extend their neck when shouldering a rifle. I am guilty of ot too sometimes and my nose will be touching the charging handle on my AR lol

thedudeabides · June 9, 2014, 06:38 AM

Bullpup is a fad and a dumb idea. Just see anyone trying to quickly swap a 30 round mag into one and you'll see why.

At least they now make aftermarket Geissele triggers for the Tavor's terrible stock trigger pull, it'll just cost you 350.

But hey, it goes bang and is reasonably accurate so if you have 2-2.5 grand laying about be my guest, or you can build a really nice AR for that kind of money.

Art Eatman · June 9, 2014, 09:15 AM

Dunno 'bout "fad". The first bullpup I ever saw was a Model 70 in .220 Swift, back around 1950. (Yeah, the trigger-link problem.) Worked great for a jackrabbit shooter, working out of the cab of a pickup.

ttarp · June 9, 2014, 09:28 AM

Im not sure how making a rifle more compact, more maneuverable in tight spaces, and maintaining the barrel length of conventional rifles is a bad idea.

marine6680 · June 9, 2014, 09:43 AM

A fad that has been going on for 40+ years now... And seems to be spreading.

Those trained and well practiced can change the mag in a bulpup just as quickly as any other rifle...

Its a good concept... The trigger linkage is a weak point. So the trigger can be less than stellar, but that isn't a huge problem in a fighting rifle meant for typical engagement distances.

Bart Noir · June 9, 2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Judging from the way the brass ejected when I shot it right-handed, if I shot a Tavor left-handed the brass would go right into my mouth.

There is one way to find out!

Bart Noir
Who recommends keeping the mouth closed while "finding out".

HKFan9 · June 9, 2014, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Bullpup is a fad and a dumb idea. Just see anyone trying to quickly swap a 30 round mag into one and you'll see why.

At least they now make aftermarket Geissele triggers for the Tavor's terrible stock trigger pull, it'll just cost you 350.

But hey, it goes bang and is reasonably accurate so if you have 2-2.5 grand laying about be my guest, or you can build a really nice AR for that kind of money.

Yes a "Fad" that has been growing for over 40 years.

Mag changes are just as fast as an AR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRlPf0P7aMg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_ULLl-8jk0

In fact thanks to where the controls are located it is actually almost easier to do a quicker mag change on a STOCK Tavor.... I cheat on an AR and use a BAD lever to make myself quicker.

that and if your local shop is telling you 2-2.5 grand for a tavor they either don't like you or dont like selling a lot of guns.

http://www.preppergunshop.com/index....b16-black.html

Anything quality is going to cost you. I have AR's worth over $2000 before optics/mags/ect.

If you do not personally like bull pups or the Tavor that is more than fine... they are not my personal favorite either. However speaking out of pure arrogance towards a topic is rather foolish.

spyderdude · June 9, 2014, 08:21 PM

I have a FDE 16.5" Tavor which I am for the most part pleased with.

It weighs a bit more than an AR15 but its one way to get a SBR sized rifle without paying extra for the tax stamp, plus you still get the full 16.5" barrel (or 18" is available). Magazine changes can be quick if you practice and as mentioned before its just different. Although I wouldn't recommend getting one as a first rifle due to availability of spare parts to make any self repairs. I already own two AR15s so if the Tavor goes down I still have other rifles I can use to shoot .223/5.56. Ideally I'd like to see the Tavor retail for no more than $1,500 dollars.

Besides that its a good gun with a good reputation given its service in the IDF and the US versions come with a flat top rail for adding various optics and flip-up sights. You can also get the IDF version with an integrated Meprolight M21.

Departed402 · June 10, 2014, 03:52 AM

As a lefty, the ejection of spent brass was one of my chief concerns. The research I found indicated that hotter 5.56 ammo would hit the brass deflector, and generally push the spent brass forward to the 2 o'clock direction; however, cooler .223 ammo would eject more 3 to 4 o'clock, which would hit people in the mouth. Further, even if the spent brass misses your mouth you still have to contend with the gases hitting your face.

That potential annoyance, along with the fact that I didn't own an AR-15 lead me to buying an AR-15. I ended up buying a Daniel Defense (generally regarded as one of the better AR manufacturers) that cost me $1,350, well less than a new Tavor. Going with an AR-15 ended up being a no-brainer for my needs.

Now if you already own an AR-15, or unless you have some Israel lineage you're trying to connect with, my opinion would be to get an AR-15.

June 5, 2014, 07:28 PM	#27
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	Another bullpup is almost available This is a link to a comparison between the Tavor and the new KelTec bullpup. No, not the one in 7.62x51. I mean a new gen bullpup in 5.56x45. Tavor versus KelTec The KelTec has a very nice trigger in this review. Bart Noir __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

June 6, 2014, 01:53 AM	#32
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So, OP... Have you hammered out a final decision? I know what I'm hoping, but have you decided the same? The suspense is building over here!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

June 7, 2014, 02:02 PM	#41
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I handled my first Tavor yesterday. The flip-up sights are usable and you can, of course, drill the aperture a little bigger if you find it too small. The controls were conveniently located. There is a rail on top but you're going to need really high irons because of the way its stocked. The trigger was downright awful and this is the curse of bullpups- by design, they must have a lot of Rube Goldberg junk between the trigger and sear. If the object of having a rifle is precision shooting, such an arrangement defeats the purpose from the outset. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

June 9, 2014, 06:38 AM	#43
thedudeabides Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1,031	Bullpup is a fad and a dumb idea. Just see anyone trying to quickly swap a 30 round mag into one and you'll see why. At least they now make aftermarket Geissele triggers for the Tavor's terrible stock trigger pull, it'll just cost you 350. But hey, it goes bang and is reasonably accurate so if you have 2-2.5 grand laying about be my guest, or you can build a really nice AR for that kind of money. __________________ OK, so not all plastic guns are bad

June 10, 2014, 03:52 AM	#50
Departed402 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 884	Brass to the Face Issue As a lefty, the ejection of spent brass was one of my chief concerns. The research I found indicated that hotter 5.56 ammo would hit the brass deflector, and generally push the spent brass forward to the 2 o'clock direction; however, cooler .223 ammo would eject more 3 to 4 o'clock, which would hit people in the mouth. Further, even if the spent brass misses your mouth you still have to contend with the gases hitting your face. That potential annoyance, along with the fact that I didn't own an AR-15 lead me to buying an AR-15. I ended up buying a Daniel Defense (generally regarded as one of the better AR manufacturers) that cost me $1,350, well less than a new Tavor. Going with an AR-15 ended up being a no-brainer for my needs. Now if you already own an AR-15, or unless you have some Israel lineage you're trying to connect with, my opinion would be to get an AR-15. __________________ Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast.

June 5, 2014, 09:27 PM	#29
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	I imagine if varies from gun to gun regarding shooting lefty with a righthand rifle. I tried a few shots lefthanded with my brothers Tavor, and didn't care for kissing the brass, ymmv.

June 5, 2014, 11:12 PM	#30
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	What's the lightest 5.56 bullpup? Tavor, AUG, FS2000, what?

June 6, 2014, 01:49 PM	#33
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Still a little up in the air. The soonest I would be getting anything will be the end of summer. Also looking at a 6.8 build. Start with an upper and swap it out with my 5.56 upper until I build the lower. And Pond... If you ever fond yourself on this side of it, in South Carolina... Feel free to let me know, and you can shoot anything I own... So you won't need live vicariously anymore. Heck PSA is up the road and rent out belt fed machine guns... You can have a heck of a time.

June 6, 2014, 04:07 PM	#35
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	I love the bullpup design. Own an MSAR and really like it. However, for civilian purposes, it's very hard to justify paying two or three times the cost of an AR15 or AK47 to shave off what, 6+/-" inches OAL. What real, practical advantage does one get for the extra $1000? No plans on selling the MSAR, but if I were buying again I would probably opt to not until if/when they are priced competitively to the AR15.

June 6, 2014, 04:14 PM	#36
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Its all good... Shooting is better with other people around. Just always been what I do... be generous and have fun.

June 7, 2014, 11:13 AM	#37
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I would get a Tavor over a AUG MSAR. As for an AR pistol with the brace... I am building one right now because I had an extra lower sitting around however cutting a 5.56 barrel down to 10'' is not ideal, especially when you can have a Tavor in 16.5 or 18' and be around the same OAL length. The Tavors shoot great, but my only gripe with it is budget in money off the start for a good optic. The flip up iron sights are god awful. As for the brass being steaming hot and hitting you while left handed shooting... its simply not true. If you shoot .223 spec ammo in it the brass will slightly graze your chin... if you are shooting 5.56 spec ammo the brass skips away from your face off the shell deflector and is a non issue. The Tavors controls are pretty much ideal for a bullpup, which is where the AUG falls a little short. Don't get me wrong, the AUG is a nice firearm, but the controls are lacking, the Tavor can be manipulated faster. The trigger on the Tavor is not THAT bad... we forget this isn't a hunting rig or a competition rifle, it was bred for the battle field. The trigger is expected to be heavier than some due to it being a bull pup. There are after market triggers.... OR you can improve it FOR FREE by taking out an extra spring. The trigger itself has an extra spring in it meant if the rifle is being using in VERY adverse conditions, removing it makes it no less reliable, and people have even tested it in sand and mud with still good results. I am guilty of it too but I think most of us on TFL get all bent out of shape on what kind of mud and dirt our guns can run it... when they are more likely to have Starbucks split on them than any real amount of dirt. I am not a huge bullpup fan, but the Tavor is a nice gun... They can be had for around $1600-$1700 now, which isn't all that more than an AUG, and cheaper than a FS2000.. which to me is a horrid design. Heres a couple videos from our buddy here about the points I mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dizuRNL0HIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEY1XdQf_JA

June 7, 2014, 12:59 PM	#39
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	This is true... I just feel like the rear sight is a little too tight of a view for my liking, once an optic is installed it is a SWEET package.

June 8, 2014, 10:10 AM	#42
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	Theo, watch the second video I posted about. MAC shows shooting it right handed and left handed shooting with no issues and explains he same thing I did. I can shoot the Tavor the same way with no issues. I know everyone is built differently however I would look at my stance and head position and cheek weld before I blame the gun (not saying it's your case) also if you were just handling the gun was their optics on it or were you just trying to aim down the rail to get a feel? Sometimes people extend their neck when shouldering a rifle. I am guilty of ot too sometimes and my nose will be touching the charging handle on my AR lol

June 9, 2014, 09:15 AM	#44
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Dunno 'bout "fad". The first bullpup I ever saw was a Model 70 in .220 Swift, back around 1950. (Yeah, the trigger-link problem.) Worked great for a jackrabbit shooter, working out of the cab of a pickup.

June 9, 2014, 09:28 AM	#45
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	Im not sure how making a rifle more compact, more maneuverable in tight spaces, and maintaining the barrel length of conventional rifles is a bad idea.

June 9, 2014, 09:43 AM	#46
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	A fad that has been going on for 40+ years now... And seems to be spreading. Those trained and well practiced can change the mag in a bulpup just as quickly as any other rifle... Its a good concept... The trigger linkage is a weak point. So the trigger can be less than stellar, but that isn't a huge problem in a fighting rifle meant for typical engagement distances.

June 9, 2014, 08:21 PM	#49
spyderdude Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Posts: 579	I have a FDE 16.5" Tavor which I am for the most part pleased with. It weighs a bit more than an AR15 but its one way to get a SBR sized rifle without paying extra for the tax stamp, plus you still get the full 16.5" barrel (or 18" is available). Magazine changes can be quick if you practice and as mentioned before its just different. Although I wouldn't recommend getting one as a first rifle due to availability of spare parts to make any self repairs. I already own two AR15s so if the Tavor goes down I still have other rifles I can use to shoot .223/5.56. Ideally I'd like to see the Tavor retail for no more than $1,500 dollars. Besides that its a good gun with a good reputation given its service in the IDF and the US versions come with a flat top rail for adding various optics and flip-up sights. You can also get the IDF version with an integrated Meprolight M21.