|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 25, 2009, 01:24 PM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
|
I am glad to see many of the views expressed in this thread. Many, if not most, of my peers have thought me paranoid when i commented on my dislike of the militarization of law enforcement agencies.
I would like to comment on the earlier comment regarding the lack of criminal prosecution as a penalty for LEO's on duty who make a mistake or violate a law. There was a murder in Atlanta, GA a year or two ago that involved a few narcotics officers who exercised a warrant of VERY questionable validity on a ghetto house belonging to a 90+ year old woman. The woman was murdered by the officers when they served a "no knock" warrant at her home; the woman did fire at the officers when they entered the home (she wounded one i believe). There were some criminal convictions/pleas in that case, i believe. I don't recall anyone being sentenced to "life" or "death" penalties, but some of the officers did go to jail. When i was a child, i was always told that the police officers were there to help, and that if i was in trouble or lost, i should ask them for help. I don't see my friends with kids teaching their kids to do that anymore. I'm not sure i blame them; i do not associate with LEO's in any way. I don't do this to be unkind, but to err on the side of my own personal safety & problem/hassle avoidance. |
May 25, 2009, 02:27 PM | #77 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Quote:
You are not so much paranoid as wisely cautious. I think everyone recognizes that there is a problem from both sides of the line, there likely is no easy solution but, discussion brings about education and knowledge is a strong tool. Quote:
As someone pointed out earlier, Police functioned basically in stealth mode for so many years that folks got used to the "Adam-12" stereotype and did not recognize what was really happening until technology advancements both privately, and in the media, began to illuminate such incidents and make them harder to just disappear or be obscured so easily. Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 02:57 PM. |
||||
May 25, 2009, 03:04 PM | #78 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
The difference is that I am required to use said deadly force in a particular situation.
This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard. |
May 25, 2009, 04:07 PM | #79 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Quote:
By OuTcAsT Quote:
By Wagonman Quote:
Mr. Wagonman, meet the public. It should come as no surprise to you that the folks younger than you or I, show so little respect or trust in the uniformed officer anymore. They have grown up in a world where a police officer is, (in your own words) akin to a soldier. And when you picture a soldier you usually associate that picture with war, violence, and death, not peace, tranquility and "helpfulness". When they sit at home and watch "Cops" they see police officers executing no-knock raids, tackling suspects, tasering individuals, and people going to jail. They do not equate the fact that ordinary looking guy in cuffs may be the bad guy, just that they don't want that kind of treatment. As time goes on that feeling perpetuates it's self and you have a public that views you as what you aspire to be...A soldier.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
||||
May 25, 2009, 04:13 PM | #80 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
|
Quote:
__________________
bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. |
|
May 25, 2009, 04:40 PM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
|
Quote"This nonsense about not telling kids that police are there to help is one of the most tin foil statements I have ever heard."
I meant no offense to you personally, but i cannot blame these parents for having concerns. Other groups previously considered "kid friendly" are now considered less so: teachers, priests, kindly old folks in the neighborhood, etc. It just seems like there has been a great deal of change since "Officer Friendly" visited my elementary school back in the mid 1970's. It makes me glad i just have cats & not kids. |
May 25, 2009, 06:51 PM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
Now you are nitpicking. My point is that when I am working I am required to perform my sworn duties to protect and serve. A ccw is under no such duty.
There are indeed segments of the society that want to tear down traditional values, Thankfully a majority of citizens don't The reason for the decline in regard for the Police is the general decline of society. The bad actors among law enforcement are a TINY percentage of Coppers, not nearly enough to justify the concept of telling kids Cops aren't the good guys. Last edited by Wagonman; May 25, 2009 at 07:05 PM. |
May 25, 2009, 06:58 PM | #83 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
|
I don't think traditional values and police militarization go together. Kids, friends neices and nephews I teach, if they are of age to be polite to police officers, Provide ID if asked but do not answer any questions, do not consent to any search and do not invite police into their homes.
Young children should be taught to seek any authority figure if they are lost or in need of any help.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law. If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say. |
May 25, 2009, 07:47 PM | #84 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
You misunderstand me I believe. I am not referring to the small number of bad actors, but rather the general rapport that LE has in the community.
It is not the misdeeds of the rouges that is causing the problem, it is the increasing "police state" style tactics that are being used, and the continuing us vs. them attitude that officers display. Quote:
My point is this, you do not have to "tell" children something for them to draw their own conclusions from experience. There is no doubt in my mind that they will probably not be as willing to portray LE as the good guys as I was. I will postulate that what you refer to as the "general decline of society" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 07:56 PM. |
|
May 25, 2009, 07:56 PM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
deleted a double tap, sorry.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 10:40 PM. |
May 25, 2009, 09:04 PM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
|
OuTcAsT,
Stop it. Your providing way too much "real world" common sense to the discussion.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law. If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say. |
May 25, 2009, 10:28 PM | #87 | ||
Member
Join Date: June 1, 1999
Posts: 75
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
May 25, 2009, 10:39 PM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
|
Quote:
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law. If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say. Last edited by Dust Monkey; May 25, 2009 at 10:56 PM. |
|
May 25, 2009, 10:46 PM | #89 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
|
Quote:
Maybe it is not more incidents but more incidents that find their way into the public view.
__________________
bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. |
|
May 25, 2009, 10:56 PM | #90 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
But, it's so horrendous that when it does happen, that it is publicized disproportionately and leaves us with the impression that it incidents like it are more commonplace than they are. Summing up, police abuse does happen, it's always inexcusable, but much more rare than we might think. |
|
May 25, 2009, 10:58 PM | #91 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
|
I am pretty sure that for every video we see there are half a dozen or more we dont see and will never know about. I will search for some stats, I remember a map showing the wrong address no knocks. Hint, there are a lot of them.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law. If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say. |
May 25, 2009, 11:00 PM | #92 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Given the incontrovertible evidence that is available from direct observation of law enforcement tactics in the form of SRT teams, No knock paramilitary operations, the adaptation by many officers of variations of BDU's as standard uniforms, are you suggesting that the officers are taking it upon themselves to become more "militarized" ? Or that this mindset is not a part of the curriculum at all ? If not, please enlighten us as to where the adversarial mindset starts to be adapted into an officers thought process , from an expert point of view. Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; May 25, 2009 at 11:06 PM. |
||
May 25, 2009, 11:09 PM | #93 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
Quote:
Why should your daughter's feelings matter? Do the teachers ask how does she feel about homework? Quote:
I would expect the "stitches for snitches" arguement on a gangsta' rap forum not here. What is "creepy" or harassing about getting intel from community members about what's going on? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I guess today when I was chasing the armed robber the people I asked if they saw the offender running should have politely provided me their ID and not assisted me in attempting to judge whether to arrest a violent offender. |
|||||
May 25, 2009, 11:23 PM | #94 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
Quote:
Of course if you live in the fantasy world of even one incident is too many then I who live in the world where excrement happens cannot speak your language. I do not excuse willful unlawful behavior, but, I will not sanction someone for doing their job in good faith who makes a mistake. |
|
May 25, 2009, 11:27 PM | #95 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Respectfully friend, Maybe it was a long day for you, maybe I was not clear in my writing, but go back and read that post in it's entire context, without parsing, I cannot believe that the "moral of the story" did not register.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
May 25, 2009, 11:31 PM | #96 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
Quote:
No knock warrant service is an acceptable and legal practice with reasoned justification. If you don't like it work to change the laws of the land. What is wrong with BDU type uniforms----much more comfy and in my opinion more suitable for field wear, rather than dress pants Quote:
Offenders bad I think somewhere around the first day of the academy |
||
May 25, 2009, 11:40 PM | #97 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
Quote:
I answered the points that I had the most heartburn over. Quote:
|
||
May 25, 2009, 11:46 PM | #98 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Wagonman, I am regretful to state that you have lost my respect as a fellow citizen... You are just a cop not a citizen! You type the words of the over zealous police tactics that most of us law abiding americans rightfully deem UNCONSTITUTIONAL and against the people you claim to protect. Ask to search my ride or home and you will be met with a slammed door in your face! If you ain't got enuff on me to arrest me and thus get free reighn to search than you obviously are grabbing at straws and fishing in a bathtub! As a child I was told the cops were out to protect me... as a teen they lied to me and my parents and my pop apologized to me for wrongly teaching me this... I raised my son and daughter to avoid police contact at all cost! In fact they have seen me try to provide cases for them to persue only to have them fumble the ball so now they, as I, realize if it was major enuff of a crime to dial 911it is best to handle it yourself and make sure justice is dealt!
We didn't say snitches get stitches... I was raised amongst some folks that taught "Snitches are a dieing breed..." sad day when folks are willing to tell a cop they have little respect for them as they were trained! Brent |
May 25, 2009, 11:58 PM | #99 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
|
|
May 26, 2009, 12:10 AM | #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
I don't bluff which is why I put bluff in quotation marks. If I have enough PC which is the traffic violation that engendered the stop I am able to make a physical arrest for said traffic violation and impound said car and inventory the contents.
I do not engage in the practice of making false arrests, and would not tolerate the practice by any LEO I work with. But, I will use every tool at my disposal to do my job. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|