CA mag law details

wogpotter · January 30, 2015, 04:44 PM

Can someone please clarify the EXACT magazine capacity limits law for CA.
For example can a damaged or non-functioning pre-ban one be shipped out of state for repair & legally returned?

*edited*
I'm not in CA & I'm not the one sending or having it returned.
*end edit*

CowTowner · January 30, 2015, 05:07 PM

Not as precise an answer as it should be, but I do know that repair kits can be shipped in for pre-ban magazines such as 30 round AR types.
I don't know if you can ship one out of state for repair and legally have it "re-imported" to the state.

hartcreek · January 30, 2015, 05:41 PM

Mags are easy to repair just order the parts in and do it yourself.

Librarian · January 30, 2015, 07:21 PM

Please see the wiki article on large-capacity magazines - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/La...e_restrictions

Re: your specific question

Quote:

For example can a damaged or non-functioning pre-ban one be shipped out of state for repair & legally returned?

I do not believe anyone knows.

It is my opinion that the CA legislature has caught on to the average 'regular' gun-owners obsession with knowing 'the answer'. By refusing to be clear, they induce the classic Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

speedrrracer · January 30, 2015, 08:56 PM

Pretty much everything above is correct according to my understanding, too.

You say you want to ship out a magazine for repair, but why does the entire thing need to be shipped? Can't you just ship out the part that's broken?

I say that because it would be an extra layer of protection. If you ship the entire magazine, you could be considered to be lending that magazine, which is prohibited. If you just ship a part, then it is not a magazine.

wogpotter · January 31, 2015, 10:39 AM

Quote:

does the entire thing need to be shipped?

Yes, see below.

Let me clarify. I'm not in CA.

I know someone who is & he has a known defective magazine. It's pre-ban & 20-round, documented. The defect is from the factory, but they just ignore the problem & tell him its normal. I've had the exact same issue with them over several magazines with the same factory-made defect. I fixed mine & I believe I can also fix his.

I need pretty much the whole thing because the factory problems relate to the body (feed lips), follower (presentation angle at the feed lips), & spring (incorrectly shaped ends). I could probably do without the floorplate, but that seems so petty.

Is sending for repair "exporting"?
If not how can it be re-importing?

wogpotter · January 31, 2015, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Mags are easy to repair just order the parts in and do it yourself.

Which bring up a different question.
Can I ship him "repair parts" as long as it isn't a complete magazine?
Leading to:
What is (legally in CA) a repair kit? Is it even actually defined?

Librarian · January 31, 2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

What is (legally in CA) a repair kit? Is it even actually defined?

No. That's a significant part of the problem.

Without that, it is effectively impossible to determine the legality of what you want to do.

Presuming by 'pre-ban' you mean 'possessed in California prior to Jan 1, 2000', it would be legal for the owner to take the mag out of state, have it worked on, and then bring it back.

Shipping? Parts? Unknown, and likely to remain so until we get a court case to clarify. Not only is such a case likely to take a couple years to run through to a conclusion, but getting one started is problematic - the court costs for a suit or legal defense vastly exceed the value of a couple of magazines. Unless we get an externally supported case along the lines of Heller, it's just easier and lots cheaper to surrender the mags and move on.

As I said earlier: legislatively-created FUD.

wogpotter · January 31, 2015, 07:35 PM

& I thought New York was a mess & MD was a disaster.

Thanks.

speedrrracer · January 31, 2015, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wogpotter

Is sending for repair "exporting"?
If not how can it be re-importing?

AFAICT, there is no prohibition on exporting. I don't see that word anywhere in the PC.

There is a prohibition on importing complete magazines, but you certainly can send him repair parts in a general sense.
The problem is, as Librarian said, there is no clear definition of what constitutes a repair kit, so specifically where the line is drawn in unknown.

Personally, I think if you sent him a single repair part, there's no way you committed a crime. The first question in the letter referenced in the Cal Guns magazine faq makes it clear that it's legal to import parts (plural!) to repair a magazine. The question is where, beyond "parts" (again, plural) do we enter into the realm of "repair kit?

Wherever that line is, I don't think any reasonable person would conclude that a part (singular) is an illegal repair kit, when parts (plural) are specifically known to be legal. Abundance of caution is a great thing, but at some point it becomes ridiculous. Your tolerance for risk (and your friend's) will have to be considered here.

Librarian · January 31, 2015, 10:08 PM

Quote:

The question is where, beyond "parts" (again, plural) do we enter into the realm of "repair kit?

And, where does 'repair kit' become 'large capacity magazine conversion kit'? If we could distinguish, we could identify RKs that are not LCMCKs. But with no data, we are adrift.

hartcreek · January 31, 2015, 10:51 PM

So where you are at is you could take photos of what you did to make the mags work correctly and email them to him with the steps. He should be able to reshape the mag lips and bend the spring to work and even reshape the follower so what part would he need?

wogpotter · February 1, 2015, 09:35 AM

That would be a great solution, but he has 2 left hands, both on the right hand side.

Sharkbite · February 1, 2015, 04:07 PM

So, if i used to live in Cali but moved out...can i take back into cali the "high-cap" mags that used to reside there??

Example, i had a G23 and a bunch of 13rnd mags when i lived there. Moved from the state. If i go back into cali is it legal to take those mags into the state?

speedrrracer · February 1, 2015, 05:59 PM

Sharkbite, no, I think that could fall under "importing". Certainly there's no mention of any "grandfathering" clause, so it would be a serious risk.

For the OP, there is a weird option which probably would not work, but who knows....you could send a letter to the DOJ, explaining exactly (with pictures / links / videos / whatever) what you're trying to do, and ask them for clarification.

Won't cost much, at least.

Librarian · February 1, 2015, 10:19 PM

Sharkbite, I actually addressed that in post 8, but slightly different context -

Quote:

Presuming by 'pre-ban' you mean 'possessed in California prior to Jan 1, 2000', it would be legal for the owner to take the mag out of state, have it worked on, and then bring it back.

That's not conditional on the repair - it's PC 32420:

Quote:

32420. Section 32310 does not apply to the importation of a
large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the
large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000,
lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with
the same large-capacity magazine.

Nothing in there about 'California resident'. But Jan 1, 2000 is a hard date.

wogpotter · February 2, 2015, 08:25 AM

Thank you! Finally an actual answer not an opinion.
Let me ask the (unfortunately) obvious question.
What if its mailed not carried?
Is there any differentiation you can see?

Librarian · February 2, 2015, 01:36 PM

Quote:

What if its mailed not carried?
Is there any differentiation you can see?

The precise language of the statute suggests the person owning (having timely possessed) the magazine has to be the actor "returning to the state with the same large-capacity magazine."

Given the fact pattern, in a reasonable situation this should not be a problem. The magazine is legally owned, all it needs is repair, the owner would not be getting a new (additional) magazine - in a reasonable legal environment even a technical, 'oh, maybe this might be seen as different' transgression ought to run under de minimus non curat lex.

California is toxic, not reasonable.

If detected, some prosecutor could charge it as a felony. Whether or not the prosecution would result in a conviction, defending against the charge would be expensive.

wogpotter · February 2, 2015, 03:22 PM

Thanks again for the extra effort.

**44 AMP** · February 3, 2015, 03:19 AM

Let me see if I got this right...

You have a legal hi cap in CA
You ship it out for repair.
Legal.

The shop that fixes it, cannot send a hi cap to CA (crime), even though it is your property, they cannot send it back to you there.

If you personally bring it back into the state, its legal.

It that about right?

CowTowner · February 3, 2015, 11:45 AM

Bloody scary stuff, ain't it?

Librarian · February 3, 2015, 01:55 PM

Quote:

The shop that fixes it, cannot send a hi cap to CA (crime), even though it is your property, they cannot send it back to you there.

That appears to be the case.

January 30, 2015, 04:44 PM	#1
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	CA mag law details Can someone please clarify the EXACT magazine capacity limits law for CA. For example can a damaged or non-functioning pre-ban one be shipped out of state for repair & legally returned? edited I'm not in CA & I'm not the one sending or having it returned. end edit __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” Last edited by wogpotter; January 31, 2015 at 10:44 AM.

January 30, 2015, 05:07 PM	#2
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	Not as precise an answer as it should be, but I do know that repair kits can be shipped in for pre-ban magazines such as 30 round AR types. I don't know if you can ship one out of state for repair and legally have it "re-imported" to the state. __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

January 31, 2015, 07:35 PM	#9
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	& I thought New York was a mess & MD was a disaster. Thanks. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

February 1, 2015, 09:35 AM	#13
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	That would be a great solution, but he has 2 left hands, both on the right hand side. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

February 2, 2015, 08:25 AM	#17
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Thank you! Finally an actual answer not an opinion. Let me ask the (unfortunately) obvious question. What if its mailed not carried? Is there any differentiation you can see? __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

January 30, 2015, 05:41 PM	#3
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Mags are easy to repair just order the parts in and do it yourself.

January 30, 2015, 08:56 PM	#5
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	Pretty much everything above is correct according to my understanding, too. You say you want to ship out a magazine for repair, but why does the entire thing need to be shipped? Can't you just ship out the part that's broken? I say that because it would be an extra layer of protection. If you ship the entire magazine, you could be considered to be lending that magazine, which is prohibited. If you just ship a part, then it is not a magazine.

January 31, 2015, 10:51 PM	#12
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	So where you are at is you could take photos of what you did to make the mags work correctly and email them to him with the steps. He should be able to reshape the mag lips and bend the spring to work and even reshape the follower so what part would he need?

February 1, 2015, 04:07 PM	#14
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	So, if i used to live in Cali but moved out...can i take back into cali the "high-cap" mags that used to reside there?? Example, i had a G23 and a bunch of 13rnd mags when i lived there. Moved from the state. If i go back into cali is it legal to take those mags into the state?

February 1, 2015, 05:59 PM	#15
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	Sharkbite, no, I think that could fall under "importing". Certainly there's no mention of any "grandfathering" clause, so it would be a serious risk. For the OP, there is a weird option which probably would not work, but who knows....you could send a letter to the DOJ, explaining exactly (with pictures / links / videos / whatever) what you're trying to do, and ask them for clarification. Won't cost much, at least.

February 2, 2015, 03:22 PM	#19
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Thanks again for the extra effort. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

February 3, 2015, 03:19 AM	#20
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,835	Let me see if I got this right... You have a legal hi cap in CA You ship it out for repair. Legal. The shop that fixes it, cannot send a hi cap to CA (crime), even though it is your property, they cannot send it back to you there. If you personally bring it back into the state, its legal. It that about right? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 3, 2015, 11:45 AM	#21
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	Bloody scary stuff, ain't it? __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy