Difference between Semi Auto and Revolver cartridges

Sigma 40 Blaster · March 10, 2008, 10:28 PM

Guys,

I've read several posts talking about how revolver rounds are different from SA rounds, especially where crimp and COAL are concerned.

It may not be necessary but I like the Lee Factory Crimp Die crimp on all of my cartridges, maybe 1/8 or 1/16 of a "ring" around the mouth of the brass.

I just got a S&W 4" 686, it should be here later this week. I already have components for ammo and would like to make a quick batch to "test out". I have 158 grain lead SWC's, four pounds of 231, and a lot of .38 and .357 brass (I'd like to load some .38's first).

So I guess my questions for you guys are:
1. 231 is a good choice for a 38 or 357 right? (I prefer a powder that makes it possible to detect a double or triple charge just in case)
2. Any of you guys have a favorite load for a 4" 686?
3. Will my tendency to crimp hurt me?
4. Do I need to do anything different to these rounds?
5. How much fun is this thing going to be to shoot??? lol

Any bits of advice you can pass on will be greatly appreciated. I'll be hitting my reloading manuals, I'm interested to see what real world stuff you guys can pass on to me...I can honestly say I've benefitted more from that than the book stuff.

rwilson452 · March 10, 2008, 10:54 PM

first off the 38/357 uses a roll crimp whereas most semiautos use a taper crimp. of you get a FCD for 38/357 it will be a roll crimp die. a taper crimp die is available so if you order it separate be sure to get the correct part number. COAL is not as critical for accuracy in a revolver. the 38/357 head space on the rim not the mouth. I would point out that COAL is still important if your loading at or near max pressure levels. If your worried abut double charges with light load in 38/357 you might want to look at trailboss powder. and finally you must crimp 38/357 cartridges.

Quote:

Guys,

I've read several posts talking about how revolver rounds are different from SA rounds, especially where crimp and COAL are concerned.

It may not be necessary but I like the Lee Factory Crimp Die crimp on all of my cartridges, maybe 1/8 or 1/16 of a "ring" around the mouth of the brass.

I just got a S&W 4" 686, it should be here later this week. I already have components for ammo and would like to make a quick batch to "test out". I have 158 grain lead SWC's, four pounds of 231, and a lot of .38 and .357 brass (I'd like to load some .38's first).

So I guess my questions for you guys are:
1. 231 is a good choice for a 38 or 357 right? (I prefer a powder that makes it possible to detect a double or triple charge just in case)
2. Any of you guys have a favorite load for a 4" 686?
3. Will my tendency to crimp hurt me?
4. Do I need to do anything different to these rounds?
5. How much fun is this thing going to be to shoot??? lol

Any bits of advice you can pass on will be greatly appreciated. I'll be hitting my reloading manuals, I'm interested to see what real world stuff you guys can pass on to me...I can honestly say I've benefitted more from that than the book stuff.

ShootingNut · March 11, 2008, 06:36 AM

I also have a 686P 4", and load Mike's 158 gr but use Hodgdon Titegroup.
I stick with their load data, I go 3.2 - 3.4 grain with 1.475" OAL on the .38's,
and 4.5 - 4.7 grain with 1.610" OAL on my .357's.
Let me know how the 231 works out for you. My ONLY complaint with my
686 is the cleaning time. Some say "just leave the carbon marks on the cylinder front". Not me, a stainless gun only looks great when it is super clean.
It treat my semi's the same way, don't matter how many rounds I shoot, they get stripped, cleaned, and oiled up after each outing.
Have fun with the 686, great gun!
SN
PS: But I also like the 17 rds. in my M&P!

Sevens · March 11, 2008, 10:26 AM

1. 231 is a good choice for a 38 or 357 right? (I prefer a powder that makes it possible to detect a double or triple charge just in case)
This is two questions... Yes, 231 is a great choice in these calibers. What makes it a great choice--? It produces decent velocities within the proper pressure range. It also has a lot of different load data available for it. It meters well. It's not position sensitive and ignites easily so it doesn't require a magnum primer. It's very popular thus widely available wherever powder is sold. For all these reasons, it's a helluva good choice.
BUT... no, it's not the best powder on earth if case volume is your utmost concern. IMO, your regular safety routines should do well to keep you from double charging a case, but as was said, Trail Boss would do a better job of preventing an accidental double charge.

2. Any of you guys have a favorite load for a 4" 686?
Mine is a 6-incher. I have a number of loads, but none are anything out of the norm or worth sharing. All work fairly well. There's so much data and component choices available in 38/357 that you'll get info overload if you try!

3. Will my tendency to crimp hurt me?
It will hurt you if you tend to over crimp. You should not be putting any sizable crimp anywhere on the bullet where there is no cannelure. If you do, you'll deform your bullets and it may hurt accuracy. Of course, you HAVE to crimp if you are shooting heavy recoil rounds or you'll see the bullets in the other chambers jumping forward under the recoil, and eventually binding up your cylinder. You do NOT want that to happen. If you are building light loads and wadcutter target rounds, skip the crimping as long as the bullet can't slide further in to the case under finger pressure.

4. Do I need to do anything different to these rounds?
Different than semi-auto pistol rounds? Nope. In fact, these will be easier to load because you have no concerns about whether or not they will cycle your slide or misfeed due to their shape. If you can chamber them and they have enough nuts to make it out the end of the barrel without getting lodged, then you are good to go.

5. How much fun is this thing going to be to shoot??? lol
A heap! You'll love the balance, the feel, the weight, the excellent single action trigger break, everything. I'd recommend Pachmayr grips because the S&W OEM stocks may look decent, but aren't that comfortable and their comfort is exponentially worse when shooting heavy magnum rounds. (the checkering eats in to your palms!)

It will be a PITA to clean... one bore just like the pistol, but 6 or 7 chambers to scrub. And that cylinder face is a dirty spot, and also the damn forcing cone and the top strap. And the recoil shield and firing pin area. And the barrel gets dirty from flash gap. And the outside of the cylinder blackens quickly. And you can't clean the bore from the breech end, so take serious caution when cleaning from the muzzle end to protect that crown. There's no doubt, none whatsoever that it's more work to clean.

You bought a helluva good revolver. I'm sure you already knew that.

azredhawk44 · March 11, 2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

I already have components for ammo and would like to make a quick batch to "test out".

I'd recommend against this, especially with a relatively fast powder like 231.

A double charge WILL fit in this case.

An under-charge will be difficult to detect in a new weapon, in a new caliber to you.

Buy a box of factory .38's and factory .357's to get a feel for what the caliber "should" feel like from your gun. If you undercharge and get a bullet lodged in the barrel, you won't like what happens during the next trigger pull.

If you must load your first cartridges to be fired in this gun, consider something with higher case fill. Trailboss, Unique (maybe... it might be possible to doublecharge with Unique), Win296, H110, 2400, AA#9, something along those lines.

Nobody should be making a "quick batch" of any caliber for which they haven't loaded before, for a gun whose tolerances they don't understand fully.

Imagine if there is a metallurgy problem in your cylinder of your new gun. Would you like to find that out with a handload, or a factory load? At least your @$$ is covered with a factory load.

JMO.

Sigma 40 Blaster · March 11, 2008, 07:15 PM

azredhawk.

I always will buy at least 50 to 100 rounds of factory ammo just to get a feel for the gun and how it should shoot.

I just wanted a preliminary sample of handloads to do a quick benchmark with...I usually make ten to twenty rounds when working up a load to go "test". Just some basic accuracy and checking pressure symptoms on the cases I fire, will be able to do more once I get the change together for a chronograph. I'm in gun mode now though...enough money spent on reloading stuff...for a minute.

I don't want to go with Unique because I have been cleaning that crap off of my semi-autos for the past year. I'm SICK of it. 231 looked like one of the next best all around powders and many folks here backed it up so I'll use a pound of this stuff and see what my guns look like when I'm done, and how the cartridges shoot of course.

March 10, 2008, 10:28 PM	#1
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Difference between Semi Auto and Revolver cartridges Guys, I've read several posts talking about how revolver rounds are different from SA rounds, especially where crimp and COAL are concerned. It may not be necessary but I like the Lee Factory Crimp Die crimp on all of my cartridges, maybe 1/8 or 1/16 of a "ring" around the mouth of the brass. I just got a S&W 4" 686, it should be here later this week. I already have components for ammo and would like to make a quick batch to "test out". I have 158 grain lead SWC's, four pounds of 231, and a lot of .38 and .357 brass (I'd like to load some .38's first). So I guess my questions for you guys are: 1. 231 is a good choice for a 38 or 357 right? (I prefer a powder that makes it possible to detect a double or triple charge just in case) 2. Any of you guys have a favorite load for a 4" 686? 3. Will my tendency to crimp hurt me? 4. Do I need to do anything different to these rounds? 5. How much fun is this thing going to be to shoot??? lol Any bits of advice you can pass on will be greatly appreciated. I'll be hitting my reloading manuals, I'm interested to see what real world stuff you guys can pass on to me...I can honestly say I've benefitted more from that than the book stuff.

March 11, 2008, 06:36 AM	#3
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	Sigma I also have a 686P 4", and load Mike's 158 gr but use Hodgdon Titegroup. I stick with their load data, I go 3.2 - 3.4 grain with 1.475" OAL on the .38's, and 4.5 - 4.7 grain with 1.610" OAL on my .357's. Let me know how the 231 works out for you. My ONLY complaint with my 686 is the cleaning time. Some say "just leave the carbon marks on the cylinder front". Not me, a stainless gun only looks great when it is super clean. It treat my semi's the same way, don't matter how many rounds I shoot, they get stripped, cleaned, and oiled up after each outing. Have fun with the 686, great gun! SN PS: But I also like the 17 rds. in my M&P!

March 11, 2008, 10:26 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	1. 231 is a good choice for a 38 or 357 right? (I prefer a powder that makes it possible to detect a double or triple charge just in case) This is two questions... Yes, 231 is a great choice in these calibers. What makes it a great choice--? It produces decent velocities within the proper pressure range. It also has a lot of different load data available for it. It meters well. It's not position sensitive and ignites easily so it doesn't require a magnum primer. It's very popular thus widely available wherever powder is sold. For all these reasons, it's a helluva good choice. BUT... no, it's not the best powder on earth if case volume is your utmost concern. IMO, your regular safety routines should do well to keep you from double charging a case, but as was said, Trail Boss would do a better job of preventing an accidental double charge. 2. Any of you guys have a favorite load for a 4" 686? Mine is a 6-incher. I have a number of loads, but none are anything out of the norm or worth sharing. All work fairly well. There's so much data and component choices available in 38/357 that you'll get info overload if you try! 3. Will my tendency to crimp hurt me? It will hurt you if you tend to over crimp. You should not be putting any sizable crimp anywhere on the bullet where there is no cannelure. If you do, you'll deform your bullets and it may hurt accuracy. Of course, you HAVE to crimp if you are shooting heavy recoil rounds or you'll see the bullets in the other chambers jumping forward under the recoil, and eventually binding up your cylinder. You do NOT want that to happen. If you are building light loads and wadcutter target rounds, skip the crimping as long as the bullet can't slide further in to the case under finger pressure. 4. Do I need to do anything different to these rounds? Different than semi-auto pistol rounds? Nope. In fact, these will be easier to load because you have no concerns about whether or not they will cycle your slide or misfeed due to their shape. If you can chamber them and they have enough nuts to make it out the end of the barrel without getting lodged, then you are good to go. 5. How much fun is this thing going to be to shoot??? lol A heap! You'll love the balance, the feel, the weight, the excellent single action trigger break, everything. I'd recommend Pachmayr grips because the S&W OEM stocks may look decent, but aren't that comfortable and their comfort is exponentially worse when shooting heavy magnum rounds. (the checkering eats in to your palms!) It will be a PITA to clean... one bore just like the pistol, but 6 or 7 chambers to scrub. And that cylinder face is a dirty spot, and also the damn forcing cone and the top strap. And the recoil shield and firing pin area. And the barrel gets dirty from flash gap. And the outside of the cylinder blackens quickly. And you can't clean the bore from the breech end, so take serious caution when cleaning from the muzzle end to protect that crown. There's no doubt, none whatsoever that it's more work to clean. You bought a helluva good revolver. I'm sure you already knew that. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

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March 11, 2008, 07:15 PM	#6
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	azredhawk. I always will buy at least 50 to 100 rounds of factory ammo just to get a feel for the gun and how it should shoot. I just wanted a preliminary sample of handloads to do a quick benchmark with...I usually make ten to twenty rounds when working up a load to go "test". Just some basic accuracy and checking pressure symptoms on the cases I fire, will be able to do more once I get the change together for a chronograph. I'm in gun mode now though...enough money spent on reloading stuff...for a minute. I don't want to go with Unique because I have been cleaning that crap off of my semi-autos for the past year. I'm SICK of it. 231 looked like one of the next best all around powders and many folks here backed it up so I'll use a pound of this stuff and see what my guns look like when I'm done, and how the cartridges shoot of course.