My gun won't extract my new rounds. OAL too short or too long?

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 08:49 PM

Hi everyone,

I just loaded a batch of .45 ACP rounds with an OAL of 1.265. They seem to feed from the magazine into the chamber ok in my Para Ordnance 1911, but they don't seem to want to extract unless I really pull hard on the slide. They just kind of get "stuck" on their way out of the ejection port. I chamber checked them in my barrel before I re-assembled my gun and they seemed fine.

So what do I need to do?

1. Make them shorter
2. Maybe tighten the crimp? They're .471 at the mouth.
3. Pull them all apart and make them longer?
4. Just go shoot them and see what happens?

Thanks for any help.

hoghunting · February 24, 2008, 09:14 PM

Three things come to mind:

1. Nasty/dirty brass
2. Nasty/dirty chamber
3. Load is too hot

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 09:20 PM

I'm not talking about actually shooting the rounds. I loaded them and then put them in my gun in my basement. The gun is clean, as is the brass. I loaded them into the magazine and then fed one into the chamber. I'm racking the slide by hand and the rounds aren't ejecting. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Jim Watson · February 24, 2008, 09:27 PM

Taper crimp down about .468" and see if you can extract a loaded round.

Otherwise, it is probably an undersize chamber that everybody is looking for bandaids for at:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=281551

rwilson452 · February 24, 2008, 09:28 PM

I can't quite picture what your saying but, are you really racking that slide? I mean like hard!. yes it could be you need to crimp tighter. remove the barrel from your pistol drop a round in the barrel with the muzzle down. does it fall in place without assistance? turn the barrel over muzzle up the round should fall out or at the most by hitting the barrel. you should not need to pry it out.

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

I can't quite picture what your saying but, are you really racking that slide? I mean like hard!. yes it could be you need to crimp tighter. remove the barrel from your pistol drop a round in the barrel with the muzzle down. does it fall in place without assistance? turn the barrel over muzzle up the round should fall out or at the most by hitting the barrel. you should not need to pry it out.

Yes I did this and everything was fine. That's what I meant when I said I chamber checked the rounds, but maybe that's not the right term? This reloading business gets confusing but it's still fun

Sevens · February 24, 2008, 09:33 PM

If I'm reading this correctly, then this should be an easy one.

If you field strip your pistol, having only the barrel at your loading bench, can you easily drop your loaded rounds in to the chamber? If yes, can you then tilt the barrel muzzle-up and the loaded rounds easily fall out of the chamber, just by force of gravity?

If yes, and you say they feed just fine from the magazine, then right now is NOT the time to worry about how loaded rounds are ejecting through the ejection port.

The ejection port was designed to toss out empty shell casings that you've fired. A lot of ammo will snag on an ejection port. Grab some factory rounds and see if some of those hang up.

Take your ammo to the range and see if the pistol is happy chucking empties.

acetum · February 24, 2008, 09:40 PM

Hold on a second here.

Please put those rounds on the side for a moment. Reload a new round with no primer and no powder. Exactly the way you did those with the same AOL.

Then rerack that round, as you do, look directly over the top / side. Hold the slide open does the tip of the round touch any part of the mag? Try to rack the round slowly, watch the extractor is it smooth or is it jittery as it slides onto the rim? Are the sides of the casing scratched really bad? Could be a sizing issue with your die or really bad brass. Check your die.

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Hold on a second here.

Please put those rounds on the side for a moment. Reload a new round with no primer and no powder. Exactly the way you did those with the same AOL.

Then rerack that round, as you do, look directly over the top / side. Hold the slide open does the tip of the round touch any part of the mag? Try to rack the round slowly, watch the extractor is it smooth or is it jittery as it slides onto the rim? Are the sides of the casing scratched really bad? Could be a sizing issue with your die or really bad brass. Check your die.
acetum is online now Report Post

All the case dimensions match those specified in my Speer manual. I think the poster that suggested that I just go shoot them and see if the empties eject is on to something with his post. My rounds pass the barrel test, so I think I'm ok. I hope so anyway

acetum · February 24, 2008, 09:51 PM

I'll have to disagree with you here Sevens, the ejection port pulls on the rim. The rim thickness should not change after discharge, my rounds are in and out, with out friction loaded or unloaded.

But to each is own, I like my hand and fingers.

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

I'll have to disagree with you here Sevens, the ejection port pulls on the rim. The rim thickness should not change after discharge, my rounds are in and out, with out friction loaded or unloaded.

But to each is own, I like my hand and fingers.

Can you elaborate on this? If my rounds fall easily into my barrel and fall out as they should, and my brass isn't scratched after being extracted, then what do you think is the problem? Do I need to crimp tighter than .471?

acetum · February 24, 2008, 10:10 PM

IMO something is touching something, or rubbing. Do you debur after trim? When I reload my 40, I do a little bit of variations on crimps. I have found that one of my walthers likes a tighter crimp (tighter than the speer manual) versus my olive that could care less.

I wouldn't spend too much time on it unless OTC rounds reject without trouble and yours don't.

DaveInPA · February 24, 2008, 10:12 PM

I don't trim my cases. I was told by everyone on this forum that pistol cases didn't need trimmed. Just rifle cases. I don't have any factory ammo on hand to do any comparisons with.

acetum · February 24, 2008, 11:32 PM

all brass elongates, it all depends on what it was fired from. Glocks for example don't have sufficient case-head support and oversized chambers, same with my S&W 40's, so they're kind of picky to reload, this could be what's happening in this case. For some reason your 1911 is having issues with that crimp or length of casing (IMO). Run those rounds threw another piece, same issue?

rwilson452 · February 24, 2008, 11:34 PM

as they still have a bullet in them they are a bit long go shoot them and see what happens I think your good to go. you shouldn't need to trim those cases. I would be willing to bet if you measured them they will be short.

I don't recall how much of what powder you put in them If you have a failure to eject or failure to feed the next round have that info ready and post it with your result. we are waiting....

GO SHOOTING!

Quote:

Yes I did this and everything was fine. That's what I meant when I said I chamber checked the rounds, but maybe that's not the right term? This reloading business gets confusing but it's still fun

DaveInPA · February 25, 2008, 05:57 AM

Haha I won't have any time for the range until the weekend, unfortunately. I have 5.3 grains of W231 in these rounds.

rwilson452 · February 25, 2008, 07:22 AM

well, make some more then. It's the only way you will learn what works in your pistol.

Quote:

Haha I won't have any time for the range until the weekend, unfortunately. I have 5.3 grains of W231 in these rounds.

CrustyFN · February 25, 2008, 08:36 PM

I had the same problem with 9mm in my CZ. Make a new one with no powder or primer. Seat the bullet a little deeper. Keep seating the bullet a little at a time until it chambers. Then put a good crimp on it and use it to reset your seating die every time you go back to that profile bullet. I have some loaded in every caliber and profile I load for so I can reset my seating die quick when I make a change.
Rusty

**Shane Tuttle** · February 25, 2008, 08:56 PM

I'd like to pick on this at another angle...

You stated that the OAL is 1.265". My guns generally tend to like 1.250" at the VERY most. Actually, I load for the most part on my plinking loads with HP38 (basically the same as W231) at 5.0gr with OAL at 1.230".

It doesn't sound like much, but 1.265" seems a bit long to use and not expect the bullet to kiss the rifling. I don't know spit about Paras, but if you're allowing the slide to feed the cartridge into the chamber, it's doing such at a greater force than you just dropping one in on your own...

I'd check the bullets to see if you have evidence of them "kissing" the rifling and making them stick a bit. I know this may be a far cry and probably highly unlikely, but I thought I'd take a stab in the dark.

Anybody think I'm way off base here?

Tim R · February 25, 2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Anybody think I'm way off base here?

You might have something. I do the same thing as Dave said he did as in I use a barrel to check to see if the rounds fall in and out of the barrel. I have had to adjust taper crimp to .472 so I don't think Dave is too far out on this. About the only thing left is the OAL. I would have to ask if the any part of the bottom of the loaded cartridge sticks above the hood of the barrel?

bigautomatic · February 25, 2008, 09:25 PM

If you are within specs of the data of the manual that you are using, I see no reason not to try them out by firing them. Your crimp should have nothing to to with them hanging in the ejection port, but OAL certainly could certainly be the culprit. Keep in mind that the action works much faster upon firing than you'll be able to rack it by hand, unless you rack it really hard as suggested above. I'm willing to bet that they work just fine at the range. Also, make sure that the extractor and everything around it is clean.

Shoney · February 25, 2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Acetum wrote in #14
all brass elongates, it all depends on what it was fired from

You are absolutely wrong.
I’m unsure of your credentials, as you are a new poster here. If you will measure straight wall semi-auto pistol cases over a long time, you find that the brass gets shorter with each loading. The cartridge is supposed to headspace on the front lip of the case in the front of the chamber. However, in reality, when the cases shorten to a given point, the extractor holds the cartridge against the slide face, rather than being stopped at the front of the chamber. Being held against the slide face, the firing pin can still do its job.

To address the subject of the thread,
DaveInPA
The posts above have covered the subject fairly well. However, when you rack the slide, are you letting it slam forward?

I was always cautioned against this practice because if the bullet is not tight in the case, it can go forward into the lands a slight bit and cause you problems. This is a real danger when chambering and rechambering carry ammo, but not firing it. Elongated rounds can then hang up in the magazine as they are switched around. You should be letting the slide ease forward for general use.

oldcspsarge · February 26, 2008, 12:19 AM

When fired and going thru the ejection cycle, the BULLET won't be there to catch its nose on the front part of the slides ejection port.

Many newer 45acps have the port flared forward to minimise what your experiencing....as law enforcement officers frequently clear live ammo from pistols and this allows it to clear the ejection port with the loaded rounds coming out.

Always check the bullet manufacturers recommended seating depth for the specific bullet you are using. Don't exceed 1.275 OAL for reliability according to my books.

Best function testing IS done on the range !

Master Blaster · February 26, 2008, 07:33 AM

Over the last 12 years I have loaded about 60,000 rounds of
.45acp in 200 LSWC, and 230 LRN, and JHP.

OAL is between 1.240 and 1.255, the longest OAL is for the 200 LSWC and keeps the lip if the lead just over the casemouth by 1/32", these feed reliably in all of my .45 acp pistols.

1.265 is a bit too long try 1.250. Your crimp of .471 is correct, and is not the problem.
1.265 is too long but it may fire and extract fine in a 1911 pistol, if you intend to use these in a revolver though you may have a problem closing the cylinder.

Quote:

I'll have to disagree with you here Sevens, the ejection port pulls on the rim. The rim thickness should not change after discharge, my rounds are in and out, with out friction loaded or unloaded.

The thing that pulls the case out of the chamber is called an extractor, whether its a Glock or a 1911 you have.

DaveInPA · February 26, 2008, 08:23 AM

I think I'll go home today after work and re-seat all the bullets to 1.250". Now that it's been mentioned, there does seem to be some marks on the bullets of the rounds I loaded into the gun - maybe evidence that they were "kissing" the barrel rifling?

Will my load of 5.4 grains of W231 still be safe with the added pressure stemming from the shorter OAL?

Thanks!
Dave

February 24, 2008, 09:33 PM	#7
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If I'm reading this correctly, then this should be an easy one. If you field strip your pistol, having only the barrel at your loading bench, can you easily drop your loaded rounds in to the chamber? If yes, can you then tilt the barrel muzzle-up and the loaded rounds easily fall out of the chamber, just by force of gravity? If yes, and you say they feed just fine from the magazine, then right now is NOT the time to worry about how loaded rounds are ejecting through the ejection port. The ejection port was designed to toss out empty shell casings that you've fired. A lot of ammo will snag on an ejection port. Grab some factory rounds and see if some of those hang up. Take your ammo to the range and see if the pistol is happy chucking empties. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 24, 2008, 09:51 PM	#10
acetum Member Join Date: February 24, 2008 Posts: 16	I'll have to disagree with you here Sevens, the ejection port pulls on the rim. The rim thickness should not change after discharge, my rounds are in and out, with out friction loaded or unloaded. But to each is own, I like my hand and fingers. __________________ sand sucks....

February 24, 2008, 10:10 PM	#12
acetum Member Join Date: February 24, 2008 Posts: 16	IMO something is touching something, or rubbing. Do you debur after trim? When I reload my 40, I do a little bit of variations on crimps. I have found that one of my walthers likes a tighter crimp (tighter than the speer manual) versus my olive that could care less. I wouldn't spend too much time on it unless OTC rounds reject without trouble and yours don't. __________________ sand sucks....

February 25, 2008, 08:36 PM	#18
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	I had the same problem with 9mm in my CZ. Make a new one with no powder or primer. Seat the bullet a little deeper. Keep seating the bullet a little at a time until it chambers. Then put a good crimp on it and use it to reset your seating die every time you go back to that profile bullet. I have some loaded in every caliber and profile I load for so I can reset my seating die quick when I make a change. Rusty __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

February 25, 2008, 08:56 PM	#19
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	I'd like to pick on this at another angle... You stated that the OAL is 1.265". My guns generally tend to like 1.250" at the VERY most. Actually, I load for the most part on my plinking loads with HP38 (basically the same as W231) at 5.0gr with OAL at 1.230". It doesn't sound like much, but 1.265" seems a bit long to use and not expect the bullet to kiss the rifling. I don't know spit about Paras, but if you're allowing the slide to feed the cartridge into the chamber, it's doing such at a greater force than you just dropping one in on your own... I'd check the bullets to see if you have evidence of them "kissing" the rifling and making them stick a bit. I know this may be a far cry and probably highly unlikely, but I thought I'd take a stab in the dark. Anybody think I'm way off base here? __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

February 24, 2008, 08:49 PM	#1
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	My gun won't extract my new rounds. OAL too short or too long? Hi everyone, I just loaded a batch of .45 ACP rounds with an OAL of 1.265. They seem to feed from the magazine into the chamber ok in my Para Ordnance 1911, but they don't seem to want to extract unless I really pull hard on the slide. They just kind of get "stuck" on their way out of the ejection port. I chamber checked them in my barrel before I re-assembled my gun and they seemed fine. So what do I need to do? 1. Make them shorter 2. Maybe tighten the crimp? They're .471 at the mouth. 3. Pull them all apart and make them longer? 4. Just go shoot them and see what happens? Thanks for any help.

February 24, 2008, 09:14 PM	#2
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	Three things come to mind: 1. Nasty/dirty brass 2. Nasty/dirty chamber 3. Load is too hot

February 24, 2008, 09:20 PM	#3
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	I'm not talking about actually shooting the rounds. I loaded them and then put them in my gun in my basement. The gun is clean, as is the brass. I loaded them into the magazine and then fed one into the chamber. I'm racking the slide by hand and the rounds aren't ejecting. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

February 24, 2008, 09:27 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Taper crimp down about .468" and see if you can extract a loaded round. Otherwise, it is probably an undersize chamber that everybody is looking for bandaids for at: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=281551

February 24, 2008, 09:28 PM	#5
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I can't quite picture what your saying but, are you really racking that slide? I mean like hard!. yes it could be you need to crimp tighter. remove the barrel from your pistol drop a round in the barrel with the muzzle down. does it fall in place without assistance? turn the barrel over muzzle up the round should fall out or at the most by hitting the barrel. you should not need to pry it out.

February 24, 2008, 09:40 PM	#8
acetum Member Join Date: February 24, 2008 Posts: 16	Hold on a second here. Please put those rounds on the side for a moment. Reload a new round with no primer and no powder. Exactly the way you did those with the same AOL. Then rerack that round, as you do, look directly over the top / side. Hold the slide open does the tip of the round touch any part of the mag? Try to rack the round slowly, watch the extractor is it smooth or is it jittery as it slides onto the rim? Are the sides of the casing scratched really bad? Could be a sizing issue with your die or really bad brass. Check your die.

February 24, 2008, 10:12 PM	#13
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	I don't trim my cases. I was told by everyone on this forum that pistol cases didn't need trimmed. Just rifle cases. I don't have any factory ammo on hand to do any comparisons with.

February 24, 2008, 11:32 PM	#14
acetum Member Join Date: February 24, 2008 Posts: 16	all brass elongates, it all depends on what it was fired from. Glocks for example don't have sufficient case-head support and oversized chambers, same with my S&W 40's, so they're kind of picky to reload, this could be what's happening in this case. For some reason your 1911 is having issues with that crimp or length of casing (IMO). Run those rounds threw another piece, same issue? __________________ sand sucks....

February 25, 2008, 05:57 AM	#16
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Haha I won't have any time for the range until the weekend, unfortunately. I have 5.3 grains of W231 in these rounds.

February 25, 2008, 09:25 PM	#21
bigautomatic Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 610	If you are within specs of the data of the manual that you are using, I see no reason not to try them out by firing them. Your crimp should have nothing to to with them hanging in the ejection port, but OAL certainly could certainly be the culprit. Keep in mind that the action works much faster upon firing than you'll be able to rack it by hand, unless you rack it really hard as suggested above. I'm willing to bet that they work just fine at the range. Also, make sure that the extractor and everything around it is clean.

February 26, 2008, 12:19 AM	#23
oldcspsarge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2008 Location: Rocky Mountains Posts: 441	When fired and going thru the ejection cycle, the BULLET won't be there to catch its nose on the front part of the slides ejection port. Many newer 45acps have the port flared forward to minimise what your experiencing....as law enforcement officers frequently clear live ammo from pistols and this allows it to clear the ejection port with the loaded rounds coming out. Always check the bullet manufacturers recommended seating depth for the specific bullet you are using. Don't exceed 1.275 OAL for reliability according to my books. Best function testing IS done on the range !

February 26, 2008, 08:23 AM	#25
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	I think I'll go home today after work and re-seat all the bullets to 1.250". Now that it's been mentioned, there does seem to be some marks on the bullets of the rounds I loaded into the gun - maybe evidence that they were "kissing" the barrel rifling? Will my load of 5.4 grains of W231 still be safe with the added pressure stemming from the shorter OAL? Thanks! Dave