"Gimme your wallet... and your piece."

[blackmind]

Originally Posted by zen900

If the mugger doesn't know you have a gun, give him your wallet without drawing the gun. He could easily swat you with a bat before you could get a CW out to use it. As the mugger is leaving then draw the weapon. The #1 priority is to survive; not pull a gun.

"As the mugger is leaving then draw the weapon."


While this makes sense to me, it raises questions. Why would you be drawing a weapon after the mugging, when the mugger is leaving? My explanation to the cops would be, "I could not draw the weapon to defend myself against the crime as it was happening because that would have endangered me even more that I was already. But after the crime, I had a concern for my safety that the mugger may decide to turn back to me and finish me off with a weapon he had not yet indicated he had, because of his desire to eliminate the witness to his crime. So I was doing the prudent thing by making sure that at least then I would be able to protect myself."

Of course, then there is another question. If the mugger came to you and just threatened violence (to "beat you up," or what have you) and you did not see a weapon because he actually is unarmed, and you draw the weapon as he leaves; what if he sees you with the gun now drawn and, figuring you are not the type willing to actually use it, he turns into a smartass and decides to come back at you to take the gun from you. The situation is now YOU have a drawn gun and HE is UNARMED. Can/should you shoot him then, given that; you drew the gun in response to having just been mugged by him; he has proven himself a criminal to you; he has indicated that he now wants to take your gun and you can fairly assume he will do bad things with it; and you understand that it is risky in the extreme to attempt to prevent him from getting the gun from you without actually using the gun in that preventive effort.

Lots of uncertainty here...


-blackmind

[Zen900]

Netzapper I hadn't thought before about somebody trying to take my gun from me. That truly is a serious situation. I have to assume in that situation that I am only seconds from death.
So.............................................................. if he demands I give him my gun I simply would tell him that it isn't my gun. At that point he will pardon himself and quietly walk off. The old "it's not my gun trick" gets'em everytime.

[alpineman]

What about a fist fight? What if I've been fairly soundly beaten, am lying there trying not to pass out, and realize that my attacker is going for my weapon? Is it legit to shoot simply to prevent him from getting my weapon?

Darn skippy it's legit. Look, if the situation started as a mugging, then progressed to beating, well - shame on me for not shooting in the first place. As soon as I'm hit, game on.

And I'm not buying this "just give up your wallet" tripe. I carry to protect myself and my property. If somebody came at me with a weapon - any weapon - beat me up for my wallet and then went for my gun, deadly force would be the next order of business. Too many thugs will shoot you - most certainly with your own gun - for less reason than just your wallet. Believing they'll just take your wallet & leave you alone could get you killed.

[springmom]

....right? So why in the world would I hesitate to use it if threatened? Someone with a knife who wants my purse will be staring my Bersa in the eye and hearing "I don't think so". I am a 51 year old woman with arthritis, and I am not able to fist fight or whatever. I carry the gun for protection, and that's what I'd use it for.

Springmom

[AttackTurtle]

Give up your piece? He should have to pry them from your cold dead fingers.

[Powderman]

Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon. Let us also suppose that in the process of doing so, they discover your gun and demand that you fork it over.

I think a lot of people are missing the point here--and the obvious.

The BG having a knife, club, pipe or anything that can cause serious bodily harm = armed with a deadly weapon.

Proper response?

First, DON'T LET THEM GET THAT CLOSE!!!

Be in condition yellow at all times. Watch anyone who seems to be intent on getting close to you. If they get too close for comfort--about 10 yards, your hand should be ON your firearm already. Warn them to keep their distance.

If they keep coming, draw your firearm. At this distance, guess what? THERE IS NO TIME FOR LOW READY!!!

Align your front sights COM, warn again.

Remember that it has been proven, time and time again (Tueller drill) that an armed threat within 21 feet is a LETHAL threat. Act accordingly, or you'll find yourself clubbed, maimed, stabbed or a combination of all three.

With regard to fist fights, here's another bit of info:

CCW HOLDERS HAVE NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO BECOME INVOLVED IN FISTFIGHTS.

Do what you can to de-escalate. Walk away if you have to. But DON'T get into a fistfight if you're carrying!!!

[Wildcard]

Use your hand-to-hand fighting skills to try and get distance.

+1.

If the attacker is armed with anything but a gun, put distance between you and him by any means. Once that is done, Draw gun. The rest is up to your attacker.

[stratus]

Originally Posted by blackmind

One factor in the decision to carry in a bag is that I consciously substitute awareness of my surroundings (and occasional opening of the bag's zipper) for quickness of drawing, if the need to do so should arise.

As one always should. That's what I was getting at when I said that a good awareness of one's surroundings would mostly preclude the original poster's scenario from ever happening.

[progunner1957]

Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon.

Any of the weapons in question are deadly weapons. When you are threatened with a deadly weapon, the only proper response is to draw your gun and aim center of mass on your attacker. Give the command, "Drop your weapon, NOW!!!" If your attacker is within 7 yards of you and makes any move toward you, shoot him center of mass.

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway: NEVER GIVE UP YOUR FIREARM TO AN ATTACKER - NEVER!!!

[svtruth]

I've never been in that situation, thank Goodness, but when I think about it I ask myself what would Springmom or pax do. They seem to have thought these things out very thoroughly and realistically, I'm not a physical match for a mugger.

[FLA2760]

Hi
Many have said that alertness is priority one; agreed. If caught off guard however, then you need to put distance between you and threat if possible. Accept that you may get cut but you NEVER WILLINGLY GIVE UP YOUR GUN! YOU NEVER LET ANYONE TIE YOU UP EITHER! I know that was not in the post but it is something I vowed never to let happen. The BUG seems a natural in this scenario. I remember reading somewhere many years back that an off duty NYC police officer was caught off guard while with his girlfriend in a park. A mugger pulled a gun and proceeded to search the cop and found his gun and shield. As the mugger walked away reveling in the fact that he took off a cop and stole his cash, gun and badge he was shot in the head by the cop who had a NAA mini .22 mag as a BUG-hideout.

[Oleg Volk]

[FLA2760]

+1 Oleg

[wayneinFL]

There's an issue I don't think anyone has addressed yet. It is unsafe to hand a loaded gun to someone. Always be sure the gun is unloaded before handing it over.

There are two basic methods of unloading a gun. From the magazine and from the barrel. I'd choose the barrel method if someone within 7 yards was threatening my life with a deadly weapon.

Seriously, it doesn't make sense to give a gun to someone who is threatening your life.

[Double Naught Spy]

Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon.

Unfortunately, this scenario construction is severely flawed as are most scenario constructions and because most fail to recognize the flaw, the suggested responses to the situation may not be valid.

The flaw is that the good guy is assumed to have omnipotent situational awareness that won't be present in real life. Here, the given parameters say that there is just one bad guy who is armed with a non-firearm. The responses are to address these parameters. The problem is that you have no way of knowing if there is actually a singular attacker or two or more. You don't know that the attacker is only armed with a non-firearm. You have to consider the fact that the attacker may rather prefer to use the non-firearm because it can garner the same results in a stealthy quiet manner. The attacker may prefer not to draw attention to the situation by having to fire his own gun. So the guy is his backup in case the more stealthy weapons don't work out.

As I understand reported police data, more often than not, the attacker is not actually alone. He may simply be the attention draw for his fellows to come up behind you or flank you without you realizing it before it is too late. The attacker may have one or more fellows who are his lookout men. You simply can't know (usually) that there was one and only one participant against you.

Use your hand-to-hand fighting skills to try and get distance.

Unless you are already so close to your attacker that hand-to-hand skills could be used, so that would be a distance of arm's length or so, moving in to use your hand-to-hand skills probably isn't smart. Why would you first close ranks, thereby increasing the risk to yourself of being clobbered, stabbed, or whatever by the attacker, to then gain distance. If you aren't already that close, then you already have the jump on the bad gun for you to bolt from the situation successfully.

Okay, so the general consensus, as I can tell, is this: since you've already been threatened with deadly force, you are justified in shooting. However, that may not work out practically, and so you should probably resort to some other method of pain distribution.

What about a fist fight? What if I've been fairly soundly beaten, am lying there trying not to pass out, and realize that my attacker is going for my weapon? Is it legit to shoot simply to prevent him from getting my weapon?

Why should you resort to some other method of pain distribution? As noted above, why do you want to close ranks on the guy if your goal is to get away from him? FYI, if you do close ranks, you run that much more risk of losing your gun to the attacker during your struggle.

[Mikeyboy]

I think the moral of the story is; If your mugged by knife point and the guy is too close to pull your weapon. Try to get distance. Don't get killed if all he wants is your wallet. Give up your wallet , but if he sees your packing and wants your gun, don't give it to him and fight for your life.

[Duxman]

Getting distance.....do you think mugger who knows you are armed is just going to stand there as you retreat? He will charge and begin slashing / stabbing, or swinging with his bat. Good in theory but in practice might be a touch difficult to implement unless you are an NFL quality DB who can backpeddle really fast.

The best move is probably to sacrifice your weak arm as a blocking piece, hopefully your jacket takes the bulk of the damage, while you one handed draw with your strong arm and hit your attacker COM.

If there are hidden multiple muggers, the second and third will probably think twice about approaching an armed person. If they persist, defend yourself accordingly.

[Jack Malloy]

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

Chances are if he discovers you are packing, he is gonna run.
Criminals are after an easy score, not a fight.
Chances are, he has not seen the police training video showing that a man witha knife has an advantage over a man with a gun at 15 yards.
He sees a peice, chances are the brown stuff will fly down his leg as he runs away, and you are really worrying about something highly unlikely to happen....Unless he is so stoned he is fearless, and would proabably even have trouble standing up.
Thing to do is do what I do when you train.
Practice diversion.
I routenely practice drawing my handgun while reaching my wallet forward in a full lenght mirror.
Another trick that will make you quick is to practice drawing as you toss a coin from one hand to the next. Thats an old speed draw thing that fast draw competitors used to do.
A little training and diversion and you most likely won't have to worry.
In the real world the only way somebody would discern that you were armed would be by seeing you inadvertantly print or flash. In that case, chances are, he would not confront you openly any way, he would attack you without warning. In which case you are up $#!+ creek, like the liquer store clerk in the first Dirty Harry movie....
Many guys worry more about speed of draw and access than concealment, but thats a mistake. Make sure your gun is CONCEALED and that you can get to it fast.....

[gdeal]

NEVER NEVER surrender your weapon. Unless of course U want to be shot by it.

[RochPersDef]

We can "what if" this to death. Deal with what you have at the moment in question: Guy with knife, wants money and somehow discovers that you have a gun. Do what you can to distract him long enough to create space and enough time to draw and, at the very least, let him know you can use it, or shoot him as you already have the legal justification (in most places). Period. No other factors, no other details, nothing. That's it.

[WhyteP38]

First, here in North Carolina it is legal to use a firearm in self-defense if you have a reasonable belief that you are in danger of being sexually assaulted, suffering great bodily harm, or being killed. Knives, clubs, bats, broken beer bottles, escrima sticks--any weapons I can think of--definitely fall into the criteria of inflicting great bodily harm or death. That's what weapons can do. You are justified in shooting. And while I suppose there could be additional circumstances where shooting, though justified, is not the best choice, I can't think of any that fit the given hypothetical scenario.

Bottom line: If the person is armed and actually threatening you, you are justified in shooting.

Second, if someone actually gets my gun--as in, I hand it to him--that would also give me a reasonable belief that I am in danger of suffering great bodily harm or being killed after he gets it.

Bottom line: The request itself could also justify shooting, if you have a reasonable belief that they could forcefully take your gun from you if you refuse.

Third, it's hard for me to picture a situation where the BG allows me enough room to draw my gun but does not allow me enough room to at least speed rock and fire.

Bottom line: If he gives me the time and space to draw, I will, and I will fire.

'Tis better to give than to receive, especially when it comes to bullets.