About Chuck Hawks ,Stopping Power and the .45 ACP

[mathman]

Let me say from the beginning that I like Chuck Hawks website and get a lot of useful information/opinions from it. However, when it comes to his article on stopping power and the .45 ACP, I have to say that I am a little irritated by some of his remarks. He continuously and subliminally puts down the .45 ACP just because he feels the best defense semi-auto is a 9mm. This may very well be the case for HIM. If he feels more comfortable shooting a 9mm than a .45 ACP, then more power to him...but to say that the stopping power of the .45 ACP is more myth and legend than reality is just plain BS...and frankly I am tired of reading this kind of nonsense. I have said in other threads and will say again here that the best handgun for self defense is the one that you shoot well (as long as it is a .45 ACP, .357 mag, .38 special, 9mm .40, etc...)....HOWEVER....to put down the .45 ACP and say that it is not the 'man stopper' as many people think...is just ludicrous. So, do what you feel like...tell yourself that the 9mm and .40 are just as good as the .45 ACP...even though you are being completely dillusional in thinking that way...but do yourself a favor and talk to some old war vets who have (unfortunately) had to use a .45 ACP to put someone down...I can assure you that they will confirm that it is every bit of a 'man stopper.'

[41special]

Well my Father and Grandfather both served and will tell you that they never saw anyone get up that was put down with a .45acp

But, then one will tell you the M1A1 was the best rifle (carbine) ever made, and the other will swear his life on the M14.

It all depends on what YOU use and what YOU are confident with.

I currently serve, and there's nothing I can't do with an M9 Beretta, but I hold no illusion as to it's stopping power.

______________________________

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[mathman]

...and I will just add one thing that Chuck Hawks does say (in fact, I think everyone says it)...the .357 mag is the best 'man stopper' on the planet (for handguns anyway).

[Double Naught Spy]

A link would have been nice. Let me guess, all this happens in the paid section of his site? While he may put down the .45 acp, my guess is that he is not doing it subliminally. It may be passive or indirect, but probably not subliminal. If subliminal, I would be interested in knowing how you discovered the manner in which Hawks is conveying information to your mind without you knowing it.

It is interesting that he says .357 is best and that mathman says .45 acp is better than 9 mm and .40. Those sound like M&S stats. Truth be known, statisticaly they are all equal with the differences being too small to be meaningful when it comes to predictive stats.

41Special, that is interesting about your father and grandfather serving and never seeing anyone get up after being hit by a .45 acp. They must not have gotten around much as their reports don't seem to jive with other historic accounts. There are all sorts of accounts of people getting up and continuing to fight after being hit have much more powerful rifle calibers such as the .30-06 or from machineguns. The Japanese in the Pacific theatre produced a lot of surprises in this manner and the .45 acp was very using, but did not produce only one shot stops. Plus, there is footage shown on TV in various forms from security cameras, on police shows, or medical shows, where folks hit with a variety of calibers are able to get up after being shot, even by the .45.

[PaleRyder]

Exactly. I've had a few policemen tell me the coroners cannot tell any difference in calibers when they perform autopsies on people who were shot.

[Model520Fan]

Originally Posted by mathman

HOWEVER....to put down the .45 ACP and say that it is not the 'man stopper' as many people think...is just ludicrous.

Not really. It is just amazing what many people think about the .45ACP, and many other cartridges. Although most firearm cartridges have potential for killing, injuring, or even stopping people, very few handgun cartridges carry any guarantees as man stoppers. Basically, most handgun cartridges put small holes in people, but not always. If you ask around hospitals, or read what someone like Jim Cirillo has to say about the subject, you will probably be able to confirm that for yourself.

More BS has been written about the .45ACP cartridge than about most cartridges, and more BS has been written about the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol than most pistols, mostly because so many ignoramuses have been exposed to the pistol and the cartridge, so few have actually used either to shoot a person (compared to the number who talk about it), and so many of the above have served in the military, where one is often paid (granted, not much) to sit around and shoot the s*** about whatever lie one can get one ones friends or some FNG to believe. I say this from twenty-five years' experience in the military.

You heard this from someone who likes both the old service pistol and the round it fires. Stronger condemnation of the concept of .45ACP as man-stopper will come from others.

And don't let my signature fool you. The .357 is not a 95% man-stopper, either. It, too, drills small holes.

520

[mathman]

Double Naught Spy: You're right, 'subliminal' was the wrong choice of words...what can I say it was after midnight. Maybe my body was subliminally communicating to me to go to bed.

As for the cartridge comparisons, we all have our own opinions and I'm sure that no person wants to be shot with any caliber. It is just funny to me that so many people will compare their 9mm or 40 to the 45...this tells you something about the 45...right?

[41special]

DNS,

They must not have gotten around much

How many people have YOU shot with a .45ACP or seen shot with a .45ACP ?

I must have missed that part of your post.

In fact how many times have your feet hit foriegn soil in anger ?

Me ? Twice (kosvo - Iraq )
My father ? Once ( Vietnam )
My Grandfather ? ( WWII )

In other words you reading or watching combat wounds on T.V. dosent make me think or anyone else think, you have one single FN clue what the F your talking about.


_____________________________________

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[Ninjato]

I alternately carry a .45acp in a Kimber Ultra CDP or .357 in a 3" GP100.

Whether the .45acp is better than the .357 or vice versa, I don't know. In my case it either would have to suffice.

Anyways before I ramble on.....I like the .45acp and .357mag. Sometimes it is the situation that decides. In the city and a lot of crowds, I prefer the .45acp and when I am out on the road on my motorcycle, I like the .357mag.

[Dusty Miller]

To 41 Special and others like him: You may have combat experience, you may have shot one or more people, but that certainly does not make you the last word on handgun effectiveness. Input from others who've had similar experiences and from people who've spent years studying this topic is valuable. Furthermore, the rest of us are certainly capable of collecting and utilizing this information. Lastly, there've been LOTS of developments in handgun loading in the last 20 years and what may have been considered an effective round in your heyday may be amongst the alsorans today. Times change and shooting technology changes. Sometimes its three steps forward and two back but over time there is improvement. 'Nuff sed.

[mathman]

I'm sorry I brought it up. It just seems like there are a lot of people who are out to 'get' the .45 ACP...and I think it is silly. I agree, a lot of advances have been made in pistol bullet technology and the 9mm (et al) have caught up to the 'big bores' and are just as effective...perhaps more effective if you can hit what you are aiming at with a 9mm and not with a .45. But let's face it, the .45 remains just as effective as it used to be (actually, it is more effective now than say 20 years ago since those same advancements apply to the .45 as well) Like Dusty said...'NUFF SED'...just don't knock my .45.

[rkc]

I think that a lot of the .45 bashers who a certain level of immaturity. those who have been there and done it, the old heads and crusty types, clearly prefer the .45. That intimadates the others. That doesnt mean we dont sometimes carry a .38 in the pocket it is simply a trade off-- but if we really knew we were heading for a fight the .45 would be the first choice, period. I have a high level of respect for the .357 and keep a beautiful Combat Magnum on hand, but my carry guns are 1911s, with a certain fondness for the Baby Eagle .45.
The laws are simple-physics. It is akin to the fellow who claims his light duty Toyota will do what a Ford dual wheel ton truck will do. Physics, physics, physics.

[Para Bellum]

with good ammnition one shot with a .45 is not significantly different from one shot with a 9x19mm, but in a 9x19mm you have 18 shots (eg Glock 17).

No handgun is a good manstopper. You have to hit several times and well to drop a bad guy.

"In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

thats from an official FBI report. you can download it at:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...04/oct04leb.htm

think about it, maybe (i) placing a second shot in an effective area quickly and (ii) a cartridge that doesn't jam are more important than the sheer size and weight of whatever you have...

[mathman]

Anyone who has studied statistics knows that there are always going to be outliers (i.e. exceptions) in any distribution. Any of us can find one or even a few cases in which a cartridge has failed.

[JSandi]

Read down at the bottom where I have the bold print.

.45 slug from 3 feet away out of a SIG

Ex-Marine held in Wal-Mart clerk's death
KRT Wire ^ | 21 January 2005


Posted on 01/21/2005 7:37:12 PM PST


TYLER, Texas - (KRT) - Two hours of grainy surveillance video captures every chilling detail.

A man with a gym bag lurks for hours, eyeing the dwindling parade of late-night Wal-Mart shoppers, waiting for just the right victim.

Just before midnight Wednesday, a smaller figure walks toward a truck at the edge of the parking lot.

Megan Holden, a new clerk at Tyler's newest Wal-Mart Super-Center, has just clocked out from the late shift, apparently unaware of the man sprinting toward her from behind.

By the time the story spun to its end on Friday morning, the video was the latest random horror endlessly looping on national television.

The 19-year-old store clerk was dead from a gunshot in the head, her body dumped along Interstate 20 near Midland, Texas. A 24-year-old Iraq war veteran and disgraced Marine, Johnny Lee Williams Jr., was in an Arizona jail, nursing a gunshot wound from a botched pre-dawn holdup that police say was the last act in a 36-hour crime spree.

"There's no doubt this was a total stranger abduction," said Tyler Police Chief Gary Swindle.

"We did everything possible," Swindle said of his department's two-day scramble to find Megan and her captor. "We felt like we had lost one of our kids."

Williams remained jailed Friday night in Willcox, Ariz., on aggravated kidnapping charges. Police in Tyler said he has refused to answer questions.

Holden's relatives in Chandler, outside Tyler, were too distraught to talk Friday about the horror that took away the 2004 Henderson High School graduate who took the Wal-Mart job last month to try to get past an earlier tragedy.

Leslie Thomas, owner of a Henderson bakery where Holden started working in her final year of high school, said the teenager's boyfriend died unexpectedly in October.

The two had met as co-workers at the Snowflake Bakery and Deli in Henderson, and Holden finally said she couldn't stand the fact that "everywhere she went, she saw him," Thomas said.

"She decided to go to Tyler, to TJC (Tyler Junior College). I think she was wanting to go into respiratory therapy, because he had passed away from an asthma attack," Thomas said.

Authorities said Holden started classes only a day before the abduction.

Thomas and the principal at Henderson High School said Holden was a friendly, easy-going girl who made a point of saying hello to people by name. They said the town and school were grief-stricken Friday.

"Megan was just one of those students who you instantly liked," said principal Stacey Sullivan. "Everyone is so upset because it was such a senseless tragedy. Why did this have to happen to her?"

Williams was a preacher's son who graduated from John Tyler High School in Tyler and joined the Marines a year later despite having had some trouble with the law. He was arrested in 1999 on a charge of criminal trespass and twice more in 2000 for a series of traffic violations, authorities said.

His parents secluded themselves after news of his arrest broke on Friday. Police said they were cooperating in the case. Investigators searched their home, northwest of Tyler, on Friday afternoon. Calls to the residence went unanswered.

The Rev. Johnny Williams Sr. and his wife went on a local television station, KLTV-TV, just before the United States invaded Iraq to talk about her faith that God would protect him and return him "better and whole."

His mother, Patricia Williams, told KLTV on Friday that her son had served 3 1/2 years, much of it in Baghdad, and came home haunted by nightmares and unable to adjust. She told the station Williams couldn't find a job, slept in his clothes and tried unsuccessfully to get help from Veterans Affairs.

Authorities in Tyler said Williams was arrested once in November on a charge of driving off without paying for gasoline and again in December on a charge of cocaine possession.

He was given a bad-conduct discharge last February after being caught using marijuana and was awaiting his appeal, according to the military.

And about 10:14 p.m. CST Wednesday, a man later identified by witnesses as Williams was seen walking from State Highway 64 onto the Wal-Mart property. Surveillance cameras captured a beefy man in a dark, hooded jacket and black baseball cap strolling the store, once being questioned by a security guard as he hovered near its entrance.

Police said Friday that they believed Holden was chosen at random after her assailant spotted her and then turned away from other potential victims. "He did make several other attempts before he did pick out Megan," the Tyler police chief said.

After Holden clocked out, a video surveillance camera mounted outside the store captured her striding across the parking lot toward her pickup truck. The video showed a second figure forcing her into the driver's side of the truck and then sitting in the parking lot for several moments before wheeling out, headed to the west on Highway 64.

"This was well-planned," said FBI Agent Jeff Millslagle, head of the bureau's East Texas operations.

Holden's relatives called Tyler police about 4 a.m. CST Thursday and reported that she hadn't come home from work. Tyler police immediately launched an investigation and called in the FBI after Wal-Mart representatives found what appeared to be her abduction on surveillance videos.

Police and FBI officials dispatched bulletins across Texas and put helicopters in the air in Smith County, flying at one point over the area where Williams lived Thursday as they searched for Holden's truck.

A cellphone tower picked up signals from Holden's telephone at some point after the abduction, investigators said.

But from there, the trail went cold until sheriff's deputies in Martin County, between Big Spring and Odessa, found Holden, in a ditch near I-20, dead from at least one gunshot wound.

Evidence at the scene indicated that she was shot and killed where her body was dumped near the town of Stanton, about 400 miles west of where she had been kidnapped. One investigator said she was partially clothed.

Tyler police said surveillance cameras in nearby Odessa captured images of Williams robbing a convenience store near I-20 at 8:19 p.m. CST Thursday.

An Odessa police spokesman said a black man wearing a T-shirt and shorts walked into Uncle's convenience store near I-20 at 8:18 p.m. CST Thursday, drew a handgun and demanded money from the cash register. He then left on foot, the spokesman said.

And just before dawn on Friday, a man wearing a hooded jacket and shorts strode into the Mountain View RV park store near Bowie, Ariz., and pulled an automatic handgun.

A former New York City firefighter was just opening the store when the man walked in. The firefighter, who said his first name was Ritchie but declined to give his last name, said he'd noticed the same man cruising past the store and abruptly wheeling around minutes before.

Ritchie said he was checking something on the store's computer when the man walked in and approached the counter just before 6 a.m. Ritchie said he stood to help him and the man abruptly raised his jacket.

"He said this is a robbery. Give me your money out of the register," the retiree said. "All I see was this automatic coming out of his sweatshirt, coming up toward me, and I drew mine and fired."

Ritchie and the store's owner, Bruce Austin, said they both have worn pistols on their hips while at the store for several years because of several attempted robberies.

Usually, the sight of a 45-caliber Sig-Sauer is enough to scare off trouble, Ritchie said. "It's an attitude-adjustment tool."

The retired firefighter said he initially thought he hadn't hit the would-be robber because the man yelled a profanity, spun around, and ran out the door.

"And he was only three feet away when I fired," the man said. "The police told me he got powder burns on his face."

Within a half hour, the sheriff's department in surrounding Cochise County got reports that a man in a Ford pickup truck was trying to flag down motorists on I-10, asking where he could go to get medical treatment.

Twenty-four miles west of Bowie, Cochise county sheriff's deputies found the same man in a red pickup pulling up to a hospital. Deputies ran a license check that confirmed the truck was Holden's.

A handgun and a blue gym bag were in the truck, investigators said.

Agent Millslagle said the incident was particularly disturbing because it is such a rarity in East Texas. Few kidnappings anywhere involve strangers, and the area has not had a stranger abduction since 1987, he said.

"Usually it doesn't happen in East Texas, and very rarely is it captured on videotape," he said.

[JohnKSa]

Originally Posted by mathman

Out to get the 45ACP

The 45ACP isn't an entity and therefore no one can be "out to get it." The reality is that all handguns share two characteristic regardless of caliber. They are all lousy "stoppers." They all will stop a person** if the bullet hits exactly the right spot.

Originally Posted by rkc

the old heads and crusty types, clearly prefer the .45...if we really knew we were heading for a fight the .45 would be the first choice, period.

old head, new head, crusty or not, the number of people who have shot people with multiple handgun calibers are few and far between. The cold, hard fact is that regardless of what people prefer--and regardless of the state or qualities of the people with the preference, the facts show that handgun caliber is largely irrelevant** when it comes to shooting people while marksmanship/tactics are tremendously relevant.

The reason the .45ACP has such a huge and devoted following is that people have been told repeatedly (without any real supporting evidence) that it is far superior to anything else available. It's just not true. The FBI has published that given the absence of a CNS hit (brain/upper spinal cord) that there will be no instant stop. It then comes down to what is damaged/how fast the shootee will bleed out. That is far more dependent on where the bullet hit than how big it is (given that we're talking about size differences of about a tenth of an inch.

** Obviously, at some point, you can go down low enough in caliber that the bullet may not penetrate to the depth required to do the job.

[41special]

First if I may, I happen to enjoy the interaction on this forum and have learned quite a bit from the ladies and gentlmen on here, I feel the is more than a few highly qualified writer's here with alot of valuable information.

My orginial post was :

Well my Father and Grandfather both served and will tell you that they never saw anyone get up that was put down with a .45acp

But, then one will tell you the M1A1 was the best rifle (carbine) ever made, and the other will swear his life on the M14.

_______________________________________________________________

This was meant to illustrate that personal experience play's a major role in the confidence and performance of a certain round. If all written documentation agreed, there would be no room for argument. It was also meant to be somewhat humorus.

_______________________________________________________________
Double Naught Spy responded with the below statement that in my opinion was completely uncalled for.

41Special, that is interesting about your father and grandfather serving and never seeing anyone get up after being hit by a .45 acp. They must not have gotten around much as their reports don't seem to jive with other historic accounts.

______________________________________________________________

As if it was a direct challenge to experience in contradiction of reports concerning ballisitic gelatin or historcal articles.

I'm sure it was not meant in a disrespectful manner, but that's how I took it.

_______________________________________________________________

To double naught spy I was quick to slap and I apologize, please consider the 'hatchet' burried.

_______________________________________________________________

To Dusty Miller,

To 41 Special and others like him: (Exactly what does other like him mean ? ) You may have combat experience, you may have shot one or more people, but that certainly does not make you the last word on handgun effectiveness. (I never said I was, but I, as I'm sure you do, believe what I see before what I read )

Input from others who've had similar experiences and from people who've spent years studying this topic is valuable. (Exactly that was I'm here to learn from other's experience and studies)Furthermore, the rest of us are certainly capable of collecting and utilizing this information. (Once again your right as well all are)

Lastly, there've been LOTS of developments in handgun loading in the last 20 years and what may have been considered an effective round in your heyday may be amongst the alsorans today. Times change and shooting technology changes. (unless the density of the humanbody has changed what killed before will still)_______________________________________________________________

Basically you stuck your nose in a discussion not needing your opinion, b/c it was not about the .45ACP or firearms. It was about a personal respect issue between DNS and myself. I consider that issue closed, I'm sure DNS post did'nt reveal his intention.

In closing I apologize to the other member's of this forum for pulling it off topic.

Dusty Miller,

If you are unclear on my intention with this post or have any further comments concerning 'people like me' please feel free to email me or send me a private message.

______________________________________________________________



Still water runs deep.

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[41special]

the facts show that handgun caliber is largely irrelevant** when it comes to shooting people while marksmanship/tactics are tremendously relevant

This post hit's the nail right on the head.

____________________________________________

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[Para Bellum]

I don't understand why anybody carries a .45. With JHP or EMFJ bullets the ballistics of .45s and 9x19mm are virtually the same but the 9x19mm offers more shots and is much easier to control (placement!).

To those who argue with "big bore" etc: A .50AE Desert Eagle is a big gun. I can see that such a gun would make a difference. But I see no argument for the .45 other than folklore...
( )

[OBIWAN]

Handguns are convenient ...not powerful

Arguing about stopping power may be fun...but it is not productive.

So....have fun!

[U.F.O.]

ParaB.

You obviously don't like the .45 ACP as is evidenced by the flitting around different threads you've done today with the 1911'ish hatchet in hand. Calm down dude. A lot of us here like the whole enchilada. "9mm is wonderful, .40 is grand, load me up a .45 and stick it in my hand." Caliber purists are boring. I own .22, .32, .380, .38, 9mm, .40, .357 and .45. Who cares? Who cares enough to spend all this time squabbling over a couple a hundreds of an inch in case diameter? Your shameless promotion of 9mm is just as distasteful as a rabid .45 guru's calling everything with a lower number a "peashooter". There are a lot of different ways to defend oneself effectively with a firearm. Personally, I want everyone who's able to legally carry whatever caliber they choose to. Load up the CCW rolls and send a message to the liberals, crooks and lawmakers. We who legally carry any caliber have MUCH more in common than we have differences. Thank God for freedom in general and freedom of choice. ALL major calibers work.....if you shoot straight. Best.

U.F.O.

[mathman]

I don't understand why anybody carries a .45. With JHP or EMFJ bullets the ballistics of .45s and 9x19mm are virtually the same but the 9x19mm offers more shots and is much easier to control (placement!).

It's obvious you don't understand. Look, there is nothing wrong with the 9mm, but the operand word in your quote is 'virtually'...if someone is strong enough and proficient enough to carry a 45 and shoot it with confidence, then why not...the 45 is a 'little better' with all other things considered equal. So, what is so hard to understand about that?

[redhawk41]

bullet caliber, weight, and velocity are just three parameters among the several (read infinite) parameters in the 'man-stopping' equation.

[JohnKSa]

mathman,

It's not that simple. Let's assume that the .45 is, as you say, "a little better". Wouldn't having access to "a few more rounds" before having to reload be "a little better"? Wouldn't being able to crank out successive rounds "a little faster" due to less recoil be "a little better" too? Wouldn't having your rounds penetrate "a little better" be good?

The fact is that in the real world you don't get something for nothing.

Want bigger bullet diameter? Pay in mag capacity and reduced penetration.

Want a heavier bullet? Pay in increased recoil.

Want more power? Pay in increased recoil and a larger gun.

Want more capacity? Pay in reduced bullet diameter or increased gun size.

Pick what's important to you, but realize that you're trading something away to get what you want. Someone else picks something else important and trades away what you think is important.

The real kneeslapper is that in the final analysis, it probably doesn't make a hill of beans difference. If you can't shoot, the things that you picked won't help you, and if you can, the things you traded away won't hurt you.

[mathman]

JohnKSa,

I said...'if someone is strong enough and proficient enough to carry a 45 and shoot it with confidence, then why not...the 45 is a 'little better' with all other things considered equal.' If the recoil and weight doesn't bother someone (for example, someone who works out and is stronger than the average man) then that is a non-factor.

About the capacity, most shootings end after two or three rounds...you are right though, if the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] hits the fan and you are in the unlikely, long, drawn out shoot out, then yes...the capacity of a 9mm is better.

Reduced penetration? The penetration differences between 45 and 9mm are negligible...and I think that almost anyone (except for 9mm fanatics) will admit that the 45 is slightly better than a 9mm in terms of effect...I said slightly...so, I'll take every advantage that I can get. I don't see myself blazing away 17 or 18 shots of 9mm...and if I am, I'm probably in a situation that I'm not going to get out of anyway...everybody gotta die someday.

So, shoot what you want...I was responding to Para Bellum's question of why anyone in the world would want a 45...and by the way, there are plenty of people who would ask, 'why in the world would anyone want a 9mm?'

Respectfully,

mathman