Help with identifying this rifle...

cobbler · November 29, 2014, 12:01 AM

I have had this rifle in the closet for over 50 years. It's been in the family and I never really gave any thought to it's true origin until the other day when it came up in conversation with a friend. It's old and beat up and from the markings in the 5th picture I did a little googling and think it's of Belgian origin sometime in the late 1800's because of the E L G in the oval proof.

So I thought I would join the forum and ask if anyone has seen something like this or has a better understanding of all the proof marks shown it the 5th picture below. I know guns get re-armored (is that the proper term?) over their lives so the proof marks confuse me. Please excuse the poor quality of the shots.

Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.

riflemen · November 29, 2014, 12:08 AM

Could be as early 18teens and as late as 1893 breach loaded black powder rifle, I believe that symbol is 1855+ due to it being over that perron {small arrowish symbol}, the K with a star is just an inspectors mark, , there were 4 different styles of that symbol and one was small, one was large, one had a crown, and one was doubled.., I had a pair of black powder pistols with it..

What interests me is the AF, I am going to say this is almost positively for Auguste Francotte , at first glance I thought it was a fish or a powder mark {some had marks dictating the powder to use}... But I am pretty confident its for Auguste Francotte, which fits well with everything else...

Although the af marks I have seen and own are all with a crown, I will look in a few books I have to see what I can find..

OK, so I found some AF markings and almost all of them mean francotte, which has to be good, they are a sought after brand, but that does not look like any I have ever seen..

cobbler · November 29, 2014, 12:45 AM

Here are some more. I'll try to take some better pics when the good camera's battery is charged.

**Frank Ettin** · November 29, 2014, 12:48 AM

Looks like a Remington Rolling Block.

As discussed in this article, it was produced by Remington in many configurations from about the mid-1860s to the early 20th Century. It was produced in many chamberings, including for a number of smokeless powder cartridges.

It was also widely sold abroad and used by the military of a number of other countries. It was also manufactured under license from Remington in several other countries.

riflemen · November 29, 2014, 12:59 AM

I can definitely see it better in them pics, here is some belgien marking literature...
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

I only blew up the picture of the markings {on a mobile tablet, everything is tiny and service is spotty}...

The rod through me, I have seen a few rolling blocks BUT all were cartridge guns and I remember them with octogon type rifled barrels and were clearly marked remington, the action does look very similar, Frank is right on this one...

gb- http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=454716636

cobbler · November 29, 2014, 01:17 AM

Yeah I think Frank nailed it. Looks just like the Rolling Blocks and the video explained that there were many made and shipped to foreign countries for military use which would explain the Belgian proofs.

You guys are awesome. I wish it was in better shape. I have no idea how my father came to possess it. As I said it's just been a dust collector in the attic since I was a tot in the late 50's.

I guess you could say I am the epitome of procrastination when it came to finding out just what it was.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Jim Watson · November 29, 2014, 10:21 AM

It is a Rolling Block rifle.
The Belgian proof marks and lack of a Remington trademark indicate it is a copy made in Belgium.
Caliber could be about anything, many armies issued the Rolling Block and probably everybody at least tried them out.

They were sold very cheaply in the Golden Era of surplus guns, from after WWII until GCA 1968 kept you from mail ordering a gun to be delivered to your doorstep. $20 would have been plenty in the 1950s, maybe $10, and lucky it didn't get made into a lamp for the den (predecessor to the Man Cave.)

**Frank Ettin** · November 29, 2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

It is a Rolling Block rifle.
The Belgian proof marks and lack of a Remington trademark indicate it is a copy made in Belgium....

That's probably it.

Jim, do you know if they were made in Belgium under a Remington license, or is this probably a "pirated" copy?

BillM · November 29, 2014, 01:14 PM

Auguste Francotte made Remington rolling blocks under license in
Belgium, and they were sold widely for sporting and military purposes.
Yours is a military version of some sort--it has a mount for a bayonet.

Not enough info to nail it down. Look for more writing on the side of
the barrel and a crest/mark on top of the barrel over the chamber.

From what I can see I'm going to GUESS it might be one of these:

Uruguayan rolling block musketoon

Do a google for the above, it should pop up a picure that looks a LOT
like your rifle.

aarondhgraham · November 29, 2014, 05:31 PM

A few pics and you have it identified,,,
Down to a Belgian licensee.

Aarond

.

cobbler · November 30, 2014, 05:45 AM

@ BillM...

I looks very much like the Uruguayan sans the markings over the chamber. There are no markings anywhere on the rifle other than those proof marks shown in the pics and that 31 in the stock.

So I think Frank, Jim, rifleman, and you have it nailed as a Auguste Francotte copy of a Remington Rolling Block. I assumed it had some military need since it has the bayonet mount.

I think I'll take it to a gunsmith and see what they can do with it. It's pretty beat up as you can see in the pictures but maybe someone with some exercise can clean it up and make it shootable. I am a total newbie when it comes to guns. I am in the process of buying my first, a handgun, and that is what got me to pull the rifle out of the attic simply out of curiosity. It has more sentimentality for me than monetary value which I assume isn't much to begin with. It has been around since I can remember so I am sure my father or even grandfather had it prior to my birth in the mid 50's.

You guys are all fantastic to take up some of your valuable time to post. Especially so since it's obvious I am a total newb what with my one post and all.

Thanks to all!

Craig

If any of you have suggestions, concerns, or future comments regarding what I should do or what you would do with this if you found it in the attic I am of course ALL ears!

.

Jim Watson · November 30, 2014, 09:15 AM

I recommend cleaning it up - don't go after it with sandpaper, a wire wheel, or coarse steel wool, just oil and a coarse cloth, maybe fine steel wool - and hang it on the wall.

Caliber is given as .43 Spanish Reformado which would be hard to find, expensive to buy, and a challenge to reload for. Some sources say it will still shoot the original .43 Spanish but even that is $77 a box of 20 at Buffalo Arms.

BillM · November 30, 2014, 09:36 AM

What Jim said^^^^^. Brush the surface dust off, give it a wipe down
with a slightly oily rag. The biggest destroyer of value in old guns is
not rust and neglect.

It's steel wool, sandpaper, wire brushes and good intentions.

November 29, 2014, 12:01 AM	#1
cobbler Junior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 7	Help with identifying this rifle... I have had this rifle in the closet for over 50 years. It's been in the family and I never really gave any thought to it's true origin until the other day when it came up in conversation with a friend. It's old and beat up and from the markings in the 5th picture I did a little googling and think it's of Belgian origin sometime in the late 1800's because of the E L G in the oval proof. So I thought I would join the forum and ask if anyone has seen something like this or has a better understanding of all the proof marks shown it the 5th picture below. I know guns get re-armored (is that the proper term?) over their lives so the proof marks confuse me. Please excuse the poor quality of the shots. Thanks in advance for any insight you may have. Last edited by Frank Ettin; November 29, 2014 at 12:39 AM. Reason: resize photos

November 29, 2014, 12:08 AM	#2
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	Could be as early 18teens and as late as 1893 breach loaded black powder rifle, I believe that symbol is 1855+ due to it being over that perron {small arrowish symbol}, the K with a star is just an inspectors mark, , there were 4 different styles of that symbol and one was small, one was large, one had a crown, and one was doubled.., I had a pair of black powder pistols with it.. What interests me is the AF, I am going to say this is almost positively for Auguste Francotte , at first glance I thought it was a fish or a powder mark {some had marks dictating the powder to use}... But I am pretty confident its for Auguste Francotte, which fits well with everything else... Although the af marks I have seen and own are all with a crown, I will look in a few books I have to see what I can find.. OK, so I found some AF markings and almost all of them mean francotte, which has to be good, they are a sought after brand, but that does not look like any I have ever seen.. Last edited by riflemen; November 29, 2014 at 12:53 AM.

November 29, 2014, 12:45 AM	#3
cobbler Junior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 7	Here are some more. I'll try to take some better pics when the good camera's battery is charged. Last edited by cobbler; November 29, 2014 at 12:58 AM.

November 29, 2014, 12:48 AM	#4
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Looks like a Remington Rolling Block. As discussed in this article, it was produced by Remington in many configurations from about the mid-1860s to the early 20th Century. It was produced in many chamberings, including for a number of smokeless powder cartridges. It was also widely sold abroad and used by the military of a number of other countries. It was also manufactured under license from Remington in several other countries. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; November 29, 2014 at 12:54 AM.

November 29, 2014, 12:59 AM	#5
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	I can definitely see it better in them pics, here is some belgien marking literature... http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html I only blew up the picture of the markings {on a mobile tablet, everything is tiny and service is spotty}... The rod through me, I have seen a few rolling blocks BUT all were cartridge guns and I remember them with octogon type rifled barrels and were clearly marked remington, the action does look very similar, Frank is right on this one... gb- http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=454716636 Last edited by riflemen; November 29, 2014 at 10:35 AM.

November 29, 2014, 01:17 AM	#6
cobbler Junior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 7	Yeah I think Frank nailed it. Looks just like the Rolling Blocks and the video explained that there were many made and shipped to foreign countries for military use which would explain the Belgian proofs. You guys are awesome. I wish it was in better shape. I have no idea how my father came to possess it. As I said it's just been a dust collector in the attic since I was a tot in the late 50's. I guess you could say I am the epitome of procrastination when it came to finding out just what it was. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Last edited by cobbler; November 29, 2014 at 05:23 AM.

November 29, 2014, 10:21 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	It is a Rolling Block rifle. The Belgian proof marks and lack of a Remington trademark indicate it is a copy made in Belgium. Caliber could be about anything, many armies issued the Rolling Block and probably everybody at least tried them out. They were sold very cheaply in the Golden Era of surplus guns, from after WWII until GCA 1968 kept you from mail ordering a gun to be delivered to your doorstep. $20 would have been plenty in the 1950s, maybe $10, and lucky it didn't get made into a lamp for the den (predecessor to the Man Cave.)

November 29, 2014, 01:14 PM	#9
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	Auguste Francotte made Remington rolling blocks under license in Belgium, and they were sold widely for sporting and military purposes. Yours is a military version of some sort--it has a mount for a bayonet. Not enough info to nail it down. Look for more writing on the side of the barrel and a crest/mark on top of the barrel over the chamber. From what I can see I'm going to GUESS it might be one of these: Uruguayan rolling block musketoon Do a google for the above, it should pop up a picure that looks a LOT like your rifle.

November 29, 2014, 05:31 PM	#10
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I am in awe,,, A few pics and you have it identified,,, Down to a Belgian licensee. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

November 30, 2014, 05:45 AM	#11
cobbler Junior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 7	@ BillM... I looks very much like the Uruguayan sans the markings over the chamber. There are no markings anywhere on the rifle other than those proof marks shown in the pics and that 31 in the stock. So I think Frank, Jim, rifleman, and you have it nailed as a Auguste Francotte copy of a Remington Rolling Block. I assumed it had some military need since it has the bayonet mount. I think I'll take it to a gunsmith and see what they can do with it. It's pretty beat up as you can see in the pictures but maybe someone with some exercise can clean it up and make it shootable. I am a total newbie when it comes to guns. I am in the process of buying my first, a handgun, and that is what got me to pull the rifle out of the attic simply out of curiosity. It has more sentimentality for me than monetary value which I assume isn't much to begin with. It has been around since I can remember so I am sure my father or even grandfather had it prior to my birth in the mid 50's. You guys are all fantastic to take up some of your valuable time to post. Especially so since it's obvious I am a total newb what with my one post and all. Thanks to all! Craig If any of you have suggestions, concerns, or future comments regarding what I should do or what you would do with this if you found it in the attic I am of course ALL ears! . Last edited by cobbler; November 30, 2014 at 05:54 AM.

November 30, 2014, 09:15 AM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I recommend cleaning it up - don't go after it with sandpaper, a wire wheel, or coarse steel wool, just oil and a coarse cloth, maybe fine steel wool - and hang it on the wall. Caliber is given as .43 Spanish Reformado which would be hard to find, expensive to buy, and a challenge to reload for. Some sources say it will still shoot the original .43 Spanish but even that is $77 a box of 20 at Buffalo Arms.

November 30, 2014, 09:36 AM	#13
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	What Jim said^^^^^. Brush the surface dust off, give it a wipe down with a slightly oily rag. The biggest destroyer of value in old guns is not rust and neglect. It's steel wool, sandpaper, wire brushes and good intentions.