The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 30, 2012, 03:59 PM   #26
raynman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2012
Posts: 4
Well Brian,Willian this is not the first .270 I have loaded for.. this is the first one that has given the problem..First of all I have read the abcs of reloading so don't be so "condensending" in your replies..further more I know too much lube will dent the shoulder I cleaned it and it still did the dent.. the die was turned into the press too far ...I found the problem and its NOT OVER PRESSURE... AKINSWI was right about the brass..The brass I was using had been reloaded too many times.. I know,I know it was a first timers mistake and I should be drawn and quarterd for making such a dumb mistake..I reloaded some cases that I know was only once shot and it worked just fine and futher more he shot a 1/2" group @ 100 yrds Thanks to everyone who tryed to help me with my problem and not scold me for being new to the reloading world
raynman is offline  
Old October 30, 2012, 05:05 PM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
There is no way that a sizing issue causes a brass cartridge that can be chambered easily when unfired to be suddenly so tight after firing that the bolt has to be beaten open. No way, unless it's coupled with a severe over-pressure condition.

I have chambered cases in 7mm-08 that were so tight I had trouble closing the bolt, knowing that this would be their last firing before resizing. These were full-power loads and they exhibited no more trouble opening the bolt than they had closing it. I've had a number of cases from other cartridges exhibit similar but less pronounced symptoms. Tight before firing, full-power loads, same tightness when opening. Any dramatic change is an indication of a dangerous condition.

I'm sorry my suggestions seem condescending to you. If you started at near max load, you need to reexamine the basic precepts of hand loading. Doesn't matter how much you "know". Starting near max loads is a dangerous thing to do.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old October 30, 2012, 09:11 PM   #28
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
Need a shirt to wear to the range.

Big, bold letters.

"WARNING!!! I start load development at max load! WARNING!!!!"

mrawesome22 is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 09:29 AM   #29
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
“I have to really hit on the bolt to open it” I do not have a rifle with a bolt that does not cam to the rear when the handle is raised, meaning when I raise the handle the camming to the rear pulls the case to the rear at the same time. When I raise the bolt with no felt resistance the extractor is not pulling the case back when the bolt cams back. (not easy to keep up with). If the case head crushes it is possible the extractor looses contact with the extractor groove, resistance to bolt travel will begin when when the extractor engages the extractor groove.

As to an answer: I do not know! The last thing I do before chambering a round at the range is wipe the cases with a clean white rag/towel. I want nothing between the case and chamber but air, clean air, I do not want a lot of air between the case and chamber but I am the fan of ‘time is a factor’. You claim the die was off 1/8” or you claim the die was off 1/8 turn of the die, or you claim the die was off the shell holder 1/8” (.0625”). Then there is the resizing ‘bulb’, I will assume we are talking about the neck sizer plug on the end of the primer punch/sizer plug assemble.

Back to the 1/8 something? When the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder when the ram is raised, ‘THAT IS IT!’ When the die contacts the shell holder the maximum amount of sizing has been reached, lowering the die after the die contacts the shell holder is a test to determine how hard headed the reloader making the adjustment is.Again, there is a time when the case whips the press, as opposed to the press whipping the case, sometime the case wins, most reloaders go the the additional fractional turn of the die (down) to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases resistance to being sized, again, when the die contacts the shell holder, no matter how much additional leverage the relaoder applies the die can not get closer to the shell holder, ‘THAT IS IT! Then there is the small dent, happens, directions hint lube on the shoulder and neck should be avoided, directions when not read and or followed become destructions.

“I checked my resizing die and found out it was a 1/16 off on the sizing bulb on the bottom of the die and I also found that when I bring the loader to full stroke on the handle it was putting a very small dent in the neck of the case almost like it was putting too much pressure on the neck of the case because when I finish the up stroke I had to really put a lot of pressure on the handle to complete the sizing”

“All of my reloading equipment is RCBS and they were all given to me by my uncle that has passed , I had thought that all of the dies were adjusted like they supposed to be ,I guess I should have check them first ....again thank you for all of your help... Ray”

I am one of the only reloaders that adjust my dies every time I use them, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, while securing the die to the press I hold the die whole securing the lock ring, BECAUSE! the die and press have threads, rotating the die while securing the die to the press changes my adjustments, then I validate, I validate the adjustment with a standard, or a gage, my favorite validator/gage/standard is the feeler gage.

“I had thought that all of the dies were adjusted like they supposed to be ,I guess I should have check them first” And I ask, how would you have checked the die first for adjustment?

If in my possession there is a die with the lock ring secured to the die, it is not my die. For everyone else there is Skip’s shims and wild guestimates of a turn.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 10:07 AM   #30
jimbob86
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
I am one of the only reloaders that adjust my dies every time I use them,
You are not the only one, either.

Even though I've been reloading for over a decade, I still read and follow the instructions that came with the dies.

"Instructions not followed become destructions." I'll keep that!
jimbob86 is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 10:51 AM   #31
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
I don't have any lock rings secured to dies either. They are all backed off at least a turn when the die is removed from the press. Seating stems are backed out too.

But getting back on topic, I am having difficulty telling what's going on with the load in question. There are just so many things wrong at once it's hard to sort them out. I'd start over with the sizing die set to size to minimum (touching shell holder), trim if needed, and start with a start load and a verified bullet weight.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 11:46 AM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
One more reason to love my Lee Classic turret. Once the dies are installed in the turret, they stay there forever. I check the first cases I size, just out of OCD I guess, but they've never changed and never should.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 12:52 PM   #33
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
“I still read and follow the instructions that came with the dies”

I dug out some old instructions that were printed ‘+/- a few’ in 1960, I made copies then put them away. Following the instructions, not a problem, but ‘bump’ had nothing to do with something that happened at the bottom of the die, the reference to ‘bump’ pertained to something that happened at the top of the die. The instructions regarding adjustment were for a chamber that I did not/do not even own, From the beginning I have been a fan of cutting down on all that case travel. When I make a reference to adjusting the die below, to or off the shell holder I am transferring a measurement from the chamber to the press.

Instructions that are included with my dies refer to a minimum/full length sized case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case. “I still read and follow the instructions that came with the dies”, I read the instructions, I do not follow the instructions, rational? again, I have a chamber that is longer from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber than Sammies chamber by .016”. AGAIN, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, once the case fits the chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber I apply the ‘leaver policy’, once the shoulder moves?? out I leaver out, or I find trashy old cases that have been fired in trashy old chamber as in too long from the head of the case to the shoulder for sizing cases that fit my chambers, or I take long cases that are longer from the head of the case to its shoulder to form cases for my long chambers. For example: The 280 Remington case is .051” longer than the 30/06 case from the head of the case to its shoulder, as I said. I adjust the die first, knowing the length of the 280 Remington and the length of my chamber allows me to adjust the die to and or off the shell holder to compensate for the long chamber.

.051”? I can not miss, all I have to do is erase the 280 Remington shoulder and create a new shoulder, my new shoulder is formed .037” further back than the 280 Remington shoulder or ahead .014” ahead the 30/06 shoulder. Then there is measuring before chambering and measuring to determine if the case whipped the press.

Then there is the problem believing full length sizing back to minimum length is equal to all cases, some reloaders have exemptions, I do not have nor do I claim I have exemptions, the case gets "tuffer” (tougher)to size when fired and “tuffer” (tougher) when sized, firing and sizing tuffen (toughen) the case. When cases are sized and fired the resistance to sizing increases. After the case gets tough to size the die must be adjusted to increase the presses ability to overcome resistance to sizing. Then it is back to measuring before and again after, by adjusting the die I know what the length of the case should be, again, I am not the fan of punishing my presses.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; October 31, 2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: add a 'the' and remove a 'to'
F. Guffey is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 01:34 PM   #34
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMBOB
I would very much like to see a close up pic of the case head.....
+ Many
Without seeing the fired case head, we are all guessing about a black cat in a dark room
mehavey is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 10:25 PM   #35
j357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2009
Location: Liberty Twp, OH
Posts: 283
+1 to Brian, thank you for the warnings and the effort to educate. The OP appears back and forth in the issue and personal level of experience. Pics would be worth a 1000 words here. Until such time as they are provided, caution is advised!
j357 is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 10:27 PM   #36
Colorado Redneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2008
Location: Northeast Colorado
Posts: 1,993
Starting at max load is not unheard of

Guy I worked with has loaded for years. He started a new load (I think for a 7 mag) and had a kablooy!!

What he said afterward: "That is the first time that happened. I should have started with minimum load and worked up. Won't ever do that again!"

This guy is a walking encyclopedia of information, and knows a lot. He knew that is not proper procedure but did it anyway. Glad he shared that with me. It is tempting to take the short cut right to the top end, but it ain't worth it. When working up loads for a couple of different calibers and using various components, it is monotonous to make up 15-20 rounds of each recipe just to get to loads that might perform the way you expect. But short cutting is not the way.
Colorado Redneck is offline  
Old October 31, 2012, 11:33 PM   #37
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 1,057
It is a fairly safe bet that your load is generating way too much chamber pressure, just because your powder charge is within published limits means nothing, there are far too many variables that have an effect on pressure.

I advise backing the load way off as your first and immediate step.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old November 1, 2012, 01:29 AM   #38
mohr308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2012
Location: Western New York
Posts: 466
Nosler load data for that bullet and powder.

In my nosler reloading guide #6, the data is as follows.

All 130 grain Nosler bullets

Imr4350 51-55 grain max. 2828-3078fps range, primer is fed210

Most accurate powder tested!
H4831sc 55-59 grain max. 2909-3124 fps range, same primer
Most accurate was the 55 grain load

Imr4350 is #113 on the burn rate chart

Hodgdon H4831sc is #125 on the burn rate chart (just a little slower)

Hope it helps
__________________
Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!
mohr308 is offline  
Old November 1, 2012, 03:46 PM   #39
10 Spot Terminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2008
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 348
Any chance you still have any of the rounds in question still loaded ? If so have you pulled one of them down and reweighed the powder charge ? I have seen no mention of the powder scale used or if the powder charges were hand weighed or dropped from a powder measure ? Although rare it wouldnt be the first time I have heard of this issue or where someone had recalled the powder they left in their powder measure from a previous loading session to be other than what they were actually loading. We are all Human and although we think we are perfect a simple assumption can lead to trouble . My initial gut reaction to the problem as stated leads me to think the loads were too hot . Just a few basics to consider.
10 Spot Terminator is offline  
Old November 4, 2012, 10:00 AM   #40
Ozzieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 6,117
This has been some very interesting reading but I would like to post a question to the experts.
When loading .223 for my AR’s using a competition Redding die, I crimp the round. I seat the bullets first then bring the die down and only allow the crimp to make very light contact with the case so that the crimp is minimal.
What would happen to the round the OP is loading if you way over crimped the case. Could this cause an over pressure?
Thanks
__________________
It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe.

Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.
Ozzieman is offline  
Old November 4, 2012, 04:54 PM   #41
oneoldsap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2009
Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont
Posts: 1,602
I say listen to every word Brian Pfleuger is telling you . This is a much better and benign wake up call than a rifle blowing up in your face . There are no safe shortcuts to a max load , and good reasons for starting loads . SAFETY , SAFETY, SAFETY FIRST !!!
oneoldsap is offline  
Old November 5, 2012, 05:29 PM   #42
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
“What would happen to the round the OP is loading if you way over crimped the case. Could this cause an over pressure?
Thanks
__________________

Ozzieman, there is no such thing as too much crimp, it is possible to stake the neck of the case to the bullet, it has been done. Time is a factor, the neck releases the bullet, unless you are a bench rester, then there is that short period of time when gas passes the bullet as when the neck expands, there are reloaders that have an exemption, they believe the bullet leaves the neck before the neck expands, anyhow too much crimp squats the case below the neck, squatting the case while crimping causes the shoulder to bulge and or collapse, in that situation most of us are protected, the case will not chamber because of the larger than necessary diameter of the shoulder/neck juncture will not allow the case to chamber.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old November 5, 2012, 05:37 PM   #43
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
The seating die does not offer case body support, expensive but, Gold Medal and Competition seating dies do do not crimp, for me the advantage of the sliding guide for the bullet is alignment, as we all (should) know, the sliding guide is not new, I have a few that are 45+ years old, one is universal, it seats anything 7mm.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old November 5, 2012, 06:12 PM   #44
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,350
For what it is worth, I had the same thing happen with my .270 win some time ago (prior to my becoming a member of TFL). I discovered that I had my seating die adjusted wrong. I was puting a slight "bulge" in the case, just below the shoulder (die set too low in the press) that was causing the cases to become stuck in the chamber.

I would bet the OP is having the same issue. Screw the seating die out a few turns and reset the seating plug to the correct depth.

Look at some of your finished rounds and compare them to a factory round. I bet you will see a slight bulge below the shoulder.

P.S. These "bulged" rounds would stick in my chamber even without firing. They would chamber O.K., but they would stick enough that the extractor would slip off and not extract them. (old rifle)
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!

Last edited by Wyoredman; November 5, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
Wyoredman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.19431 seconds with 8 queries