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June 10, 2008, 12:17 PM | #1 | |
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Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?
The following incident took place here in Hillsborough County Saturday. A man named Jorge Bello went to the home of his estranged wife and shot her to death along with her new boyfriend and a female friend. He then fled in his truck before being stopped by three HCSO deputies. The following describes the shootout.
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June 10, 2008, 12:33 PM | #2 |
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Eight rounds of 22lr are better than a sharp stick, but not as good as 9 16" rounds from an Iowa class battleship.
Your point? |
June 10, 2008, 12:52 PM | #3 | |
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Yeah, a .22 in hand beats a .45 at home in the safe. You can't always conceal/open carry the firepower you'd like to have with you.
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June 10, 2008, 01:01 PM | #4 |
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TV versus Reality
Not sure what the 'debate' really is here....
But after going through some training with the ATF & FBI recently I was even shocked as to how much someone can do after being 'hit'. Even with big calibers, full of adrenaline and any other 'artificial adrenaline', it's not like TV. They don't drop all the time after two to the chest or elsewhere. With that being said.... a .22 in that special 2" zone around the head will drop them every time. Would I carry one? Nah... not unless it was all I had at the time or I HAD to have something that small. Side note: Placement Placement Placement. One round accurately fired a second or two slower is MUCH more effective than 10 fired at MachII speed. You are responsible for every shot. If you don't know where they are going, who is to say civilians/innocents aren't in danger from your fire. <stepping off soap box>
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June 10, 2008, 01:21 PM | #5 |
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I would be willing to carry a .22lr (and have) but not a .25ACP.
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June 10, 2008, 01:28 PM | #6 | |
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Hit Multiple Time, But Where???
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I have seen multiple posts on this forum that most law enforcement officers are not gun people and most are not good shots. I can say from my experience that this is true. When I was a correctional officer, most of those that I went to the range with to qualify were not good shots. They shot well enough to qualify, but I would not want to see them in action. I assume that police shoot more often than COs, but I do not know.
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June 10, 2008, 02:23 PM | #7 |
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First rule of a gunfight - Bring A Gun!
A .22 in your pocket in the alley is better than that .44 mag. on the table at home. Given proper shot placement, a .22 or .25 can be as deadly as a .45. Practice! If all you can handle or conceal is a small gun of this type - go for it. If it's the size more than the recoil, look at the palm-size .32s and .380s on the market. I'd rather carry a .22 than the .25. I believe the ballistics are better. |
June 10, 2008, 02:45 PM | #8 | ||
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Of course any gun is better than no gun and hits with a 22lr are better than misses with a 50bmg. The problem is almost any larger caliber is better than the 22 and hits with bigger are usually better than hits with a 22.
Most folks are capable of concealing larger. Still many who feel a need to carry voluntarily carry the puniest. A cartridge that limps by vs one capable of stopping a serious attacker under the dynamics of a real life and death struggle. The example I posted was just to help expose the lack of stopping power with the bigger calibers in an effort to show how inadequate the micro calibers would be. Quote:
This is not a pure bigger is better thing because stats show that there is very little difference between the bigger handgun calibers. However all of the bigger calibers are capable of consistently penetrating a torso and smashing bones when encountered. Quote:
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June 10, 2008, 02:50 PM | #9 | |
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Is proper shot placement harder to get when being attacked? |
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June 10, 2008, 02:54 PM | #10 |
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The example I posted was just to help expose the lack of stopping
power with the bigger calibers in an effort to show how inadequate the micro calibers would be. And of course, there's the story of a wife who was killed by a bullet fired from her husband's .22 while he was using it to drill a hole (that's right!) for mounting a TV dish to the wall. Went through the inside wall and outside siding - killed her dead. One shot. And we've all heard the stories of a BG shot with a .40 or ,.45 and living to kill the cop who shot him. |
June 10, 2008, 02:58 PM | #11 |
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Is the .22 better than the 38 special in the alley?
Is proper shot placement harder to get when being attacked? What asinine questions. Let me clarify what I said: A .22 is better than nothing. Proper shot placement can be good or bad with ANY caliber, especially in a tactical situation. Practice, practice, practice! |
June 10, 2008, 03:34 PM | #12 |
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Keltyke, Those are extremes. We all have heard of these.
In the event of one of those extremes (getting a bad guy who refuses to stop) what is the tactic taught by the big schools for stopping someone? Are the 22's and 25's capable of significantly damaging the pelvic girdle? Would equal hits from bigger cause more damage? Everyone has the right to carry what they want. I'm just pointing our the negatives in carrying the smallest. |
June 10, 2008, 04:16 PM | #13 |
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Everyone has the right to carry what they want. I'm just pointing our the negatives in carrying the smallest.
GIVEN THE CHOICE: I'd rather not carry anything smaller than a 9mm. I'm just pointing out the negatives in carrying NOTHING vs carrying SOMETHING, even if it's a mouse gun. |
June 10, 2008, 04:21 PM | #14 |
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It is too bad that some people feel a need to lash out at others, when their life falls apart. This guy Jorge Orlando Bello Garcia was real sick from diabetes, and was no longer able to work at his job as a truck driver. His house then got foreclosed on. And then his wife decided to divorce him.
So he lashed out at the only thing that was easy to attack, his estranged wife. I think that these sort of scenarios must be among the most dangerous that police face. It took a bullet to the brain to finally stop Bello Garcia. He did not care about living, he just wanted to lash out at others. It is too bad officers were not able to deploy shotguns or M4 carbines in this shootout. Bello Garcia's pickup was described as being peppered with bullet holes. More accurate gunfire would have been much easier to obtain with a long gun. . |
June 10, 2008, 04:46 PM | #15 | |
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"Better than nothing" is just not acceptable when my life is on the line. It is used to justify inadequacies of all sorts. IMO the only use a 22 or 25 has is as a backup or when nothing bigger is possible. |
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June 10, 2008, 05:24 PM | #16 |
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Lance, I saw the truckhttp://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun...ampa-shooting/ it was riddled pretty good. The officers especially wilson, who lost a good chunk of his forearm, kept it together enough to survive. Mccoy was able to get a head shot under this stress which is commendable.
Bello was able to get two hits on separate targets in 14 shots despite over 50 rounds being launched at him. This goes to show just how the pressure of life and death struggles change shooting ability. Bello seemed to be asking to die meaning no pressure. The officers wanted to live and accuracy suffered. |
June 10, 2008, 10:19 PM | #17 |
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Why is it better to get something other than a .22?
My wife used to work in the OR room at a major hospital that was in, uh, a crappy place. She as been in CVICU, CVOR, OR, Truma I, and even director of CV nursing. Well she told me long time ago that people shot with low powered rounds like .22, .25, .32 most of the time walked in talking! As the round's power increased, more were carried in (like 9mm, .38, .357, .45s) The ONLY ones that just about always were carried in were shotgun wounds. Unless you have a physical problem that makes the .22, or .25, the only real firearm choice, I'd get something bigger.
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June 10, 2008, 10:29 PM | #18 |
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It is a shame that this POS did not just eat his gun before engaging the deputies; like so many of these criminal losers do after they do crap like this. Rant over
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June 11, 2008, 03:10 AM | #19 | |
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I sure would hate to find myself up against someone with a .45, and then realize that I only had a .22 in my hand. I would feel pretty stupid at that point. . |
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June 11, 2008, 03:40 AM | #20 |
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You mean, the guy with the biggest gun wins?
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June 11, 2008, 06:21 AM | #21 |
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"IMO the only use a 22 or 25 has is as a backup or when nothing bigger is possible."
Now we're on the same page. I've already stated that, if possible, I personally don't carry anything smaller than a .38 spcl. or (preferably) a 9mm. I have a compact .40 on order. A lot of mouseguns are being made in .380 and 9mm, so there is less reason to carry anything smaller. My wife has trouble handling the recoil of a mousegun in .380 or 9mm, so she carries a .32 auto. She's good with it. Ya do that ya gotta do. |
June 11, 2008, 02:40 PM | #22 |
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"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?"
The standard answer is "because there are better options." The standard outlier arguments are brought up but this, but that... fine. If they represent a given person's situation that should be taken into account. But for most there are better options.
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June 11, 2008, 03:29 PM | #23 | |
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Just how big of an edge it would be, is debatable. But I think that most would agree that the person with the .22 would be disadvantaged by their gun selection. Of course, there are many, many factors that play into any confrontation. If the gun used was the sole factor in a gun battle, then the lady ( Jeanne Assam ) that stopped the shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado should have lost that fight. For that shooter had a Bushmaster AR-15, a .40 S&W Beretta 96, and a Springfield XD 9mm. He also had an AK-47, but he left that gun in his car, and did not take it into the church. But she was pretty well armed too, with a 9mm Beretta 92 FS. While she scored no truly fatal hits, she hit him twice in the same thigh, causing him to bleed severely. And then she shot him in the wrist, disabling one of his hands. At that point, he decided to end it all, and used his other hand to shoot himself in the head. One would normally have expected him to come out on top in the gunfight, as he had been using the Bushmaster. But he didn't. But what if Jeanne Assam had instead been carrying only a little pocket Beretta .25 Auto? Would the outcome have likely been the same?? . |
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June 11, 2008, 04:47 PM | #24 |
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There is some extensive actual test data.
During World War Two the British Special Operation Executive (the SOE) conducted an extensive series of tests of all currently (1942) available handguns to decide what they should arm their agents sent on missions to the occupied countries to kill key German officials and collaborators. The SOE concluded that a .22 Long Rifle automatic piatol was the best weapon. Their firing technique was to fire 10 rounds into the intended victims upper chest cavity. Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back. That translates into stopping power as well as lethality.ys died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back. Note that " Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back." That was stopping power as well as lethality.
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June 11, 2008, 06:18 PM | #25 | |
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Remember, the reason .25's and pocket .22's got popular in the first place (pre-1960's or so) is because the metallurgy was not advanced enough to handle high-pressure cartridges in small packages. Hence the rise of the .25, .32's and .380's. Now you can stuff more power into smaller packages, so why not take advantage of it. |
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