Want to see what emergency self-defense situations are REALLY like? - Page 2

David Armstrong · November 3, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

A biased sample:

And your better sample is.....????? You make do with the best information available, and virtually all sources (even LE) do not support the "sudden unexpected attack" hypothesis.

Quote:

How many attacks were not reported in the "Armed Citizen" because the citizen lacked time to respond?

Probably less than were not reported where the citizen did have time to respond, as that is the normal distribution.

Glockamolie · November 3, 2006, 08:48 PM

I guess cops are in the white, and attacked out of nowhere, but the rest of us have time to stop what we're doing, go to the safe, get our gun, load it, and THEN take care of the problem.

Ummm, if the chit goes down in the street, it's pretty much going to be the same.

warwagon · November 4, 2006, 04:02 AM

Please do not confuse the roles of law enforcement, with that of civilian defense.

The fact is, they are completely different, and as so, should be looked at differently.

The flight/or flight reaction is not an option for those who took an oath to protect, anymore than it was on that dreadful day 9-11 01, when everyone else besides the cops, and fire fighters were trying to escape the madness, they were running TOWARDS IT!

Sory for the yelling, but this hits close for me,and you are under no obligation to protect anything as a civilian, unlike those who took the oath, and did their jobs.

CCW for civilians is important to me, and the fewer the folks that confuse the two, is an important function of boards such as this.

Sory for the rant.

Blair
(soapbox surrendered now, next?)

clt46910 · November 4, 2006, 09:54 AM

Ok, I got to step in here. Violence encounters can and do, very often, happen extremely fast without any kind of warning.

In my younger days, I was very adventurous and not very careful about my own personal safety. So just from a few of my personal experiences.

Hearing about half dozen running footsteps behind me and then being bashed in the side of the head as I turned around. This while I was walking in early evening in a good neighborhood outside a Air Force Base. An attempted mugging.

Knocking on the door of a new girl I met to pick her up for a date. Door is thrown opened and a large fist smashed me in the face. Then as I was going down, the beating continued with Knees, feet and hands. Very jealous ex-boyfriend

Walking out of a club. Two men suddenly beside me, one holding each arm. Informed me they had a knife against my *******. Comfirmed it with a little pressure. Another attempted mugging.

Man walked up to me and informed me he did not like a friend of mine. I told him I agreed my friend could be a jerk at times, thinking the conversation was over I turned away only to be blind sided in the side of the head. Drunk with a bad temper.

In none of these cases would I have been able to retrieve a weapon and in every case it happened very sudden. Yes, there was a few times when I knew something was going down and had time to react or remove myself from the situation.

But NEVER think it will not be sudden or very violence.

WSM MAGNUM · November 4, 2006, 10:42 AM

Armour piercing ammo is a hyped up term used for bullets that are said to go through vests. This is hype that the anti-gun crowd uses. Almost any type of bullet that is used in rifles will pierce the vests if the bullet has enough velocity and is close enough to the person. The bullets that are dubbed as armour piercing probably have steel cores or something that does`nt mushroom or deflect as easily as copper core bullets. I remember reading an article about this, but I don`t remember the source of it. There really is no such thing as armour piercing ammo. As I said, most hunting bullets on the market now can pierce armour. Some arrogant politician had to give it a bad name to start a fire on banning ammo.

David Armstrong · November 6, 2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

I guess cops are in the white, and attacked out of nowhere, but the rest of us have time to stop what we're doing, go to the safe, get our gun, load it, and THEN take care of the problem.

Don't think anyone has said anything even close to that.

Quote:

Ummm, if the chit goes down in the street, it's pretty much going to be the same.

Ummm, no, it isn't. The dynamics of the encounters tend to be quite different, as the underlying situations are very different.

Quote:

Violence encounters can and do, very often, happen extremely fast without any kind of warning.

They can, and sometimes do. But most do not. Those that do rarely occur in a format where a firearm would make any difference.

Glockamolie · November 6, 2006, 08:43 PM

Can you clarify what you're saying, or show me the difference between the two types of encounters? Maybe I'm missing what you're saying.

I say this with no "attitude" or ill-will. I'm just not seeing the difference between the two, generally speaking.

David Armstrong · November 8, 2006, 01:16 PM

Are you asking the difference between LE and non-LE encounters? If so, the most basic difference is that LE is required to go into encounters that non-LE are not, and the goal is very different (apprehension versus dis-engagement/avoidance). If thta is nto the issue, can you rephrase the question as I'm not following it.

BillCA · November 8, 2006, 03:16 PM

I'm not trying to take sides on the LEO vs. CCW issue here, however I have a few observations and comments to make.

In LEO engagements, the officer is and should be on high alert when dealing with officer-initiated contacts. In some cases he does not have the option to avoid the situation and must press forth with contact.

In CCW life, the citizen (not "civilian") can attempt to avoid the contact completely. This requires, of course, some degree of general awareness of what's going on around you. The gunfight you avoid is the one you win silently.

Some criminals are brazen in their attacks. There is one video of a strong arm robbery at a Macdonalds wherein the assailant looks like another customer then blind-sides the older customer in front of the cashier. He takes the victim's wallet and leaves quickly. Total time is about 8 seconds.

Not long ago a similar incident occurred locally, where a customer placed his order and when stepping away from the cashier said "Excuse me, please" to three young men who were behind & to his side. All three beat him down, took his wallet and keys, stealing his car as they left. This has become common now in some areas -- swift, brief attacks in well lit public areas with other people and even survelliance video present.

As a CCW-toting citizen, you should be aware of your surroundings and of the people nearby. You should be able to size up the situation and let your first instincts tell you if anyone nearby is a likely threat. Because you are in a public area and others are nearby does not mean you can't be blindsided and rapidly overwhelmed.

James K · November 8, 2006, 03:51 PM

Hi, David Armstrong,

Nice ideas from someone who, I suspect, has never even been in a street fight, let alone a gun fight. I suggest you talk to someone who really has been attacked. It is not like the movies where the bad guys and the victim dance around for a half hour while swapping bad jokes and discussing Shakespeare or the meaning of life. It is not often that the victim has a chance even to cry out, let alone bring a gun into action. And what kind of fast draw does anyone recommend when the muzzle of a 9mm is against the side of your head, or you are knocked down and knifed in the kidneys?

If you are going to carry a gun, understand that you need to know how to use it and be ready to use it. Too many folks carry guns because they think it is "cool", not because they really have a need. I often use the term "serious puposes" when discussing gun carry. Someone asked me once what situations I thought would be "serious." My response was that a person whose testimony had just sent a mob boss away for life, or who had beaten up a member of MS-13 just might have a "serious" reason to carry a gun.

Jim

David Armstrong · November 8, 2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Nice ideas from someone who, I suspect, has never even been in a street fight, let alone a gun fight.

LOL!!! I love it when folks make these crazy statements. FWIW, I rarely find that I have to take a back seat to anyone when it comes to either real-world experience or training. I've been in as many fights (and yes, even a few genuine real-life gunfights) as most have and more than many have even thought about.

Quote:

I suggest you talk to someone who really has been attacked.

Strangely enough, I have done just that. I've talked to several hundred. Sort of gives me a perspective on what happens that is a bit more accurate than lots of folks.

Quote:

It is not often that the victim has a chance even to cry out, let alone bring a gun into action.

Nonsense. It's nice to claim something like that, but it just isn't true. The literature is full of examples where the victim cries out, and where victims get their gun into action. In fact, if you trust Kleck, it happens over a million trimes a year.

Quote:

And what kind of fast draw does anyone recommend when the muzzle of a 9mm is against the side of your head, or you are knocked down and knifed in the kidneys?

I would recommend the same kind of fast draw you would use any other time. The question is not what type of draw to use, it is whether a fast draw plays a significant role in many incidents, or is even the appropriate response to an incident.

Quote:

My response was that a person whose testimony had just sent a mob boss away for life, or who had beaten up a member of MS-13 just might have a "serious" reason to carry a gun.

Not many folks like that out there, Jim. Interesting how so many resort to a situation that is so far out of the norm to try to support their arguments.

gvf · November 13, 2006, 01:11 AM

I'm the original poster of the thread. Nice discussion! I tend to think of these encounters being fast and out of nowhere, partly due to my experiences in the "bad old days" in New York City in the '70s. I was lucky and never the victim of street crime, but many others I knew were. Often they were victims of professional muggers, and could not avoid many situations in bad neighborhoods because most neighborhoods were bad. I remember one "technique" I heard of several times, a running attack from the rear with a metal pipe, smashing it across the shoulder or arm of the victim, usually instantly breaking bones, immediate heist of the wallet and disappear in an instant during the victim's initial writhing in pain. The other were cooler: wait for someone to open the outer door of an apt., and immediately run in to the vestibule, knife or gun in the back, and cool, calm instructions about not turning around with a promise to not hurt them if they obeyed. They usually kept their word, took the valuables very quickly, gave a last admonition to not turn around or get shot while BG was leaving - and he was off. These guys knew how to make it instantaneous. But there are probably many situations, and this type only one, (and frankly having a CC wouldn't seem to make much difference in either of the above, except that it would likely be stolen).

CyberSEAL · November 14, 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

...and don't get your training off a TV show. It's a TV SHOW!!! You want training, go to a TRAINING. Don't turn on the idiot box.

While I agree watching tv can't be a substitute for real training, the show in question isn't exactly a cartoon...it does contain footage that's used in real police training.

Deaf Smith · November 16, 2006, 09:57 PM

gvf,

Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go". So, dummy me, threw off my hat and glasses and ran after him. In front of him a guy grabed him in a hug. I got up there and put on a wrist lock on his free hand. Between both of us he went down, tried to get up, and then stayed down. A rather large Virgin Island cop came by and cuffed him. My wife, who saw the snatcher throw the purse down, retrieved it and give it back to the woman.

Yes it happed fast. So fast I didn't even think of things like, what if he has a knife? And yes, he could have had a knife and stabbed the other guy, and as he fell I'd have been alone with a rather tall pissed off crook with a knife and me having him in a wrist lock (but NOT head lock or any serious way to keep him from using that knife.) People here would have read about a newly wed who was stabbed to death on his honnymoon has he confronted a purse snatcher....

Anyway, unless you have some real definate tip offs, I'd say most SD situations are fast, supprising, and never go to any pre-set plan.

njtrigger · November 19, 2006, 05:42 PM

If your a civilian and intent on owning/carrying a weapon, then its your duty to seek as much training as you can get preferably from an NRA program.

If you do ever shoot someone, there is a chance that you will be taken to court in a criminal or civil manner. The attorneys will question you as to your experience and training with firearms. If you state that you have no training or dont practice too much with the weapon, then you will appear irresponsible and wreckless. This will aggravate the situation in court.

The NRA does have the following courses that might apply here:

Basic Pistol
Personal Protection in the Home
Home Firearm Safety

Whenever you either fire or display a weapon in public, then there is a chance you will get arrested. If you dont get arrested, the situation will be reviewed thoroughly by the local prosecutor and then you still might get arrested. If the prosecutor doesnt want to pursue it, the people you fired on will probably pursue civil charges. Ultimately, it might end up in court in front of a whole bunch of non-involved people intent on looking at the facts. You might end up in jail and/or paying hefty penalties handed down by the courts.

At the minimum, you should complete the NRA courses and practice at the range at least once every month or two. You should keep a log of the times you went to the range along with the receipts.

November 3, 2006, 08:48 PM	#27
Glockamolie Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 359	I guess cops are in the white, and attacked out of nowhere, but the rest of us have time to stop what we're doing, go to the safe, get our gun, load it, and THEN take care of the problem. Ummm, if the chit goes down in the street, it's pretty much going to be the same. __________________ Brandon

November 4, 2006, 04:02 AM	#28
warwagon Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2005 Location: Dayton Oh Posts: 341	Gentelmen, Please do not confuse the roles of law enforcement, with that of civilian defense. The fact is, they are completely different, and as so, should be looked at differently. The flight/or flight reaction is not an option for those who took an oath to protect, anymore than it was on that dreadful day 9-11 01, when everyone else besides the cops, and fire fighters were trying to escape the madness, they were running TOWARDS IT! Sory for the yelling, but this hits close for me,and you are under no obligation to protect anything as a civilian, unlike those who took the oath, and did their jobs. CCW for civilians is important to me, and the fewer the folks that confuse the two, is an important function of boards such as this. Sory for the rant. Blair (soapbox surrendered now, next?)

November 4, 2006, 09:54 AM	#29
clt46910 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 149	Ok, I got to step in here. Violence encounters can and do, very often, happen extremely fast without any kind of warning. In my younger days, I was very adventurous and not very careful about my own personal safety. So just from a few of my personal experiences. Hearing about half dozen running footsteps behind me and then being bashed in the side of the head as I turned around. This while I was walking in early evening in a good neighborhood outside a Air Force Base. An attempted mugging. Knocking on the door of a new girl I met to pick her up for a date. Door is thrown opened and a large fist smashed me in the face. Then as I was going down, the beating continued with Knees, feet and hands. Very jealous ex-boyfriend Walking out of a club. Two men suddenly beside me, one holding each arm. Informed me they had a knife against my *******. Comfirmed it with a little pressure. Another attempted mugging. Man walked up to me and informed me he did not like a friend of mine. I told him I agreed my friend could be a jerk at times, thinking the conversation was over I turned away only to be blind sided in the side of the head. Drunk with a bad temper. In none of these cases would I have been able to retrieve a weapon and in every case it happened very sudden. Yes, there was a few times when I knew something was going down and had time to react or remove myself from the situation. But NEVER think it will not be sudden or very violence. __________________ Chuck in Indiana

November 4, 2006, 10:42 AM	#30
WSM MAGNUM Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 750	Armour piercing ammo is a hyped up term used for bullets that are said to go through vests. This is hype that the anti-gun crowd uses. Almost any type of bullet that is used in rifles will pierce the vests if the bullet has enough velocity and is close enough to the person. The bullets that are dubbed as armour piercing probably have steel cores or something that does`nt mushroom or deflect as easily as copper core bullets. I remember reading an article about this, but I don`t remember the source of it. There really is no such thing as armour piercing ammo. As I said, most hunting bullets on the market now can pierce armour. Some arrogant politician had to give it a bad name to start a fire on banning ammo. __________________ Henry - Life NRA Member, USCCA Shield Member If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?

November 6, 2006, 08:43 PM	#32
Glockamolie Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 359	Can you clarify what you're saying, or show me the difference between the two types of encounters? Maybe I'm missing what you're saying. I say this with no "attitude" or ill-will. I'm just not seeing the difference between the two, generally speaking. __________________ Brandon

November 8, 2006, 01:16 PM	#33
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	Are you asking the difference between LE and non-LE encounters? If so, the most basic difference is that LE is required to go into encounters that non-LE are not, and the goal is very different (apprehension versus dis-engagement/avoidance). If thta is nto the issue, can you rephrase the question as I'm not following it.

November 8, 2006, 03:16 PM	#34
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	I'm not trying to take sides on the LEO vs. CCW issue here, however I have a few observations and comments to make. In LEO engagements, the officer is and should be on high alert when dealing with officer-initiated contacts. In some cases he does not have the option to avoid the situation and must press forth with contact. In CCW life, the citizen (not "civilian") can attempt to avoid the contact completely. This requires, of course, some degree of general awareness of what's going on around you. The gunfight you avoid is the one you win silently. Some criminals are brazen in their attacks. There is one video of a strong arm robbery at a Macdonalds wherein the assailant looks like another customer then blind-sides the older customer in front of the cashier. He takes the victim's wallet and leaves quickly. Total time is about 8 seconds. Not long ago a similar incident occurred locally, where a customer placed his order and when stepping away from the cashier said "Excuse me, please" to three young men who were behind & to his side. All three beat him down, took his wallet and keys, stealing his car as they left. This has become common now in some areas -- swift, brief attacks in well lit public areas with other people and even survelliance video present. As a CCW-toting citizen, you should be aware of your surroundings and of the people nearby. You should be able to size up the situation and let your first instincts tell you if anyone nearby is a likely threat. Because you are in a public area and others are nearby does not mean you can't be blindsided and rapidly overwhelmed. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

November 8, 2006, 03:51 PM	#35
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, David Armstrong, Nice ideas from someone who, I suspect, has never even been in a street fight, let alone a gun fight. I suggest you talk to someone who really has been attacked. It is not like the movies where the bad guys and the victim dance around for a half hour while swapping bad jokes and discussing Shakespeare or the meaning of life. It is not often that the victim has a chance even to cry out, let alone bring a gun into action. And what kind of fast draw does anyone recommend when the muzzle of a 9mm is against the side of your head, or you are knocked down and knifed in the kidneys? If you are going to carry a gun, understand that you need to know how to use it and be ready to use it. Too many folks carry guns because they think it is "cool", not because they really have a need. I often use the term "serious puposes" when discussing gun carry. Someone asked me once what situations I thought would be "serious." My response was that a person whose testimony had just sent a mob boss away for life, or who had beaten up a member of MS-13 just might have a "serious" reason to carry a gun. Jim

November 13, 2006, 01:11 AM	#37
gvf Junior member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 1,226	Hello Again I'm the original poster of the thread. Nice discussion! I tend to think of these encounters being fast and out of nowhere, partly due to my experiences in the "bad old days" in New York City in the '70s. I was lucky and never the victim of street crime, but many others I knew were. Often they were victims of professional muggers, and could not avoid many situations in bad neighborhoods because most neighborhoods were bad. I remember one "technique" I heard of several times, a running attack from the rear with a metal pipe, smashing it across the shoulder or arm of the victim, usually instantly breaking bones, immediate heist of the wallet and disappear in an instant during the victim's initial writhing in pain. The other were cooler: wait for someone to open the outer door of an apt., and immediately run in to the vestibule, knife or gun in the back, and cool, calm instructions about not turning around with a promise to not hurt them if they obeyed. They usually kept their word, took the valuables very quickly, gave a last admonition to not turn around or get shot while BG was leaving - and he was off. These guys knew how to make it instantaneous. But there are probably many situations, and this type only one, (and frankly having a CC wouldn't seem to make much difference in either of the above, except that it would likely be stolen). Last edited by gvf; November 13, 2006 at 01:15 AM. Reason: grammar

November 16, 2006, 09:57 PM	#39
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	gvf, Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go". So, dummy me, threw off my hat and glasses and ran after him. In front of him a guy grabed him in a hug. I got up there and put on a wrist lock on his free hand. Between both of us he went down, tried to get up, and then stayed down. A rather large Virgin Island cop came by and cuffed him. My wife, who saw the snatcher throw the purse down, retrieved it and give it back to the woman. Yes it happed fast. So fast I didn't even think of things like, what if he has a knife? And yes, he could have had a knife and stabbed the other guy, and as he fell I'd have been alone with a rather tall pissed off crook with a knife and me having him in a wrist lock (but NOT head lock or any serious way to keep him from using that knife.) People here would have read about a newly wed who was stabbed to death on his honnymoon has he confronted a purse snatcher.... Anyway, unless you have some real definate tip offs, I'd say most SD situations are fast, supprising, and never go to any pre-set plan. __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

November 19, 2006, 05:42 PM	#40
njtrigger Junior member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Posts: 154	If your a civilian and intent on owning/carrying a weapon, then its your duty to seek as much training as you can get preferably from an NRA program. If you do ever shoot someone, there is a chance that you will be taken to court in a criminal or civil manner. The attorneys will question you as to your experience and training with firearms. If you state that you have no training or dont practice too much with the weapon, then you will appear irresponsible and wreckless. This will aggravate the situation in court. The NRA does have the following courses that might apply here: Basic Pistol Personal Protection in the Home Home Firearm Safety Whenever you either fire or display a weapon in public, then there is a chance you will get arrested. If you dont get arrested, the situation will be reviewed thoroughly by the local prosecutor and then you still might get arrested. If the prosecutor doesnt want to pursue it, the people you fired on will probably pursue civil charges. Ultimately, it might end up in court in front of a whole bunch of non-involved people intent on looking at the facts. You might end up in jail and/or paying hefty penalties handed down by the courts. At the minimum, you should complete the NRA courses and practice at the range at least once every month or two. You should keep a log of the times you went to the range along with the receipts.