When to call it quits

300winguy · August 11, 2002, 07:21 PM

At the gun range I lost some reloading confidence. Plain old green box remington ammo out shot every handload I took along to try out. The factory ammow shot .25 inch groups. My best handloads shot a little over an inch. Should I now just give up loading for my .223 and stick with remington factory ammo? At what point do you decide that you just can't better it?

sricciardelli · August 11, 2002, 07:42 PM

Basic rules of handloading:

#1 No matter what the factory makes, you can do better.

#2 You have to have the patience and perserverence to continue on your quest until you have the perfect combination.

It took me 6 years and thousands of combinations before I managed to get one of my .25-06's to shoot decently...

jjmorgan64 · August 11, 2002, 08:02 PM

Keep at it, you'll will eventually get it, and it will be well worth all of the work.

larryw · August 11, 2002, 11:48 PM

Never quit, never surrender!

You're eventually just one load from perfection. And if you're a true reloader, you'll tinker with that too.

Steve Smith · August 12, 2002, 12:08 AM

How many rounds went into that .25" group? Does it do it all the time, or was it a one time event? Understand that a rifle that consistently groups at 1" can have, statistically, a smaller group at any time.

300winguy · August 12, 2002, 08:34 AM

part of me says that I should keep tryiing to find a load that is really accurate but after seeing how the remington factory ammo shot part of me is thinking why. Before Sunday I had never shot a round of store bought ammo through the gun. I shot six groups of three rounds each of the store bought stuff and all were under the size of a dime. In fact one group only had two holes and when I checked closely I could see that one bullet went through the same hole as a previous. I was astounded! This rifle (CZ 527) has never done better than an inch with my own loads. It was an extreme shift to see it shoot like this. In fact I was on the verge of getting rid of the rifle for a more familiar Remington or Winchester.

Steve Smith · August 12, 2002, 09:06 AM

Ok, so you have extablished that it wasn't a statistical fluke. Perhaps you should try to duplicate their load as much as you can. You should already know what bullet their using, and their cases are R-P I'm sure, and the primers are most likely Remington as well...try both regular and match.

What bullet weight powder are you using?

Johnny Guest · August 12, 2002, 12:53 PM

- - - but one thing I'd do, is get the lot number from that box of Remington factory ammo. Then I'd hie meself back to that store and try to find several boxes--all I could easily afford - - - of the same ammo just to have on hand. Properly stored ammo doesn't get stale. And you'd have it to use for hunting until you locate the ultimate pet handload.

No kidding.

Best,
Johnny Guest

Poodleshooter · August 12, 2002, 02:48 PM

Yeah, but how much did the ammo cost?
Besides, that lot of ammo will eventually vanish, and you may find that your handloads are superior once more!
Just go shoot some .22 for awhile, and don't let it bother you.

PJR · August 12, 2002, 03:44 PM

I've had the same thing happen. My thin barrel Sako .223 shoots the Winchester 50 grain Ballistic Silvertip into 3 shot .5" groups regularly. I set out to duplicate the round as much as possible.

I chronyed the round, measured it, took it apart, measured the case and worked up equally good loads using the same components except for powder. Companies switch powder frequently and what they use isn't always available so I loaded to equal the velocity of the factory ammo.

With a couple of added tricks, like neck sizing, I've developed ammo even better.

Paul

300winguy · August 12, 2002, 04:46 PM

The bullets are 55 gr power-lokt hollow points. Problem is a bought the lone box about three hours away from were I live when I happened to be passing by Gander Mountain. So this box could be a fluke? I have given some thought to ordering the same bullets from Midway and getting some Remington primers. I haven't shot much Remington ammunition in the past. Now out of curiosity I am going to have to go buy another box and give it a try, this coming weekend. One other interesting note, not sure if I mentioned earlier but it seemed like the hotter the barrel got the smaller the groups got. Really odd! I think I am going to have to look into this a little more. Oh, if I try to mimic the ammo, should I stick with the OAL length of the factory ammo? It was way under the max OAL length.
Another thing, I have been necksizing my reloads, should I try full-length resizing?

saands · August 12, 2002, 06:19 PM

Quote:

One other interesting note, not sure if I mentioned earlier but it seemed like the hotter the barrel got the smaller the groups got. Really odd!

Maybe odd ... maybe not. IMHO, There are a lot of things that will take a rifle from 2 moa groups to sub-moa groups, but I think that once it gets THERE, barrel harmonics have a LOT to do with the improvements to get to .5 moa ... I don't yet have any rifles that shoot better than .5 moa so I am unwilling to say that you don't need to get exotic to get that kind of performance.
Back on topic ... When your barrel changes temperature, its resonant frequency will change and there's probably a 50-50 chance that it will change in your favor ... see Browning's explanation of their BOSS system (you might have to actually look up their patent ... # RE35,381 which is a reissue of #05279200 ... for the really good explanation, I forget where I read it) ... even if you don't want to use a barrel tuner, the info is quite enlightening ... and it explains why most rifles shoot best at a particular velocity ... and it is not necessarily the MAX velocity for a given cartridge

Best,
Saands

PJR · August 12, 2002, 10:53 PM

300winguy

Reduce the variables as much as possible. I'd duplicate the OAL because it could be with that bullet shorter is better. I've found neck sizing works for me but full sizing might be the secret to this load. Only you can find out.

The 527 I owned was accurate with ammo it liked but was a bit finnicky. The factory ammo seems to be the right combination for yours and gives you a good starting point to make it even better.

moredes · August 14, 2002, 09:22 PM

At some point you may reach a point of diminishing returns. How expensive is the ammo, and can you afford OEM all the time for that gun? Will other lots shoot as well consistently? One thing you don't want to do is shoot out the barrel looking for a good reload.

I'm crying when I say this, it took me almost 1000 rounds to find an accurate round for one of my rifles; unfortunately, the OEM accurate stuff was $1 per shot.

tex_n_cal · August 15, 2002, 12:12 AM

Check out that factory ammo, and you may find it's not going as fast as you think.

I once had some WW 120 gr .25-06 that shot great. When I got around to clocking them, they were running about 2750 fps !

A good 250-300 fps below the cartridge's potential.

One advantage of handloading is the ability to ensure that you are getting the full performance due, within rational safety limits, of course.

Chronographing is just plain fun, anyway

Nuts and Bolts · August 15, 2002, 11:48 AM

Might be a concentricity problem with the reloads as well. If you have a way to check the run out of the factory ammo, and that of your reloads, it might reveal the problem. Just an idea. Another thing I have heard is that some rifles don't like to have the bullets seated too close to the lands. Hope this might be of help.

caz223 · August 16, 2002, 11:00 AM

The first load I tried for .223 was waaaaay better than factory loads.
The problem with the 55 grain factory loads was they were too heavy for a 14:1 twist.
I decided to try 45 grain hornet bullets, and 4198 powder (Seems to like light bullets.) and boom......
One hole groups at 75 yards. (That was the longest range I could shoot at a target back than.)
Better trajectory too...
Try changing bullet weights to match the twist in your rifle, if you haven't tried that already.
Remingtons in .223 seem to like light bullets (Which is ok, mine is a crow gun anyway...) savages .223 seem to like heavy bullets. (Might have something to do with 9:1 twist.)
Man, that hornet bullet at 223 velocities just explodes when it hits something.

300winguy · August 20, 2002, 06:53 PM

Nuts and Bolts, your advice may very well be true. I tried seating the bullets as far out as possible and groups became very large in a hurry. I than seated the bullets way under max (like the factory stuff) and I shot .38 inch 3 shot group.

dsteinman · August 23, 2002, 11:45 PM

Keep at it... You will find a load for your gun that will surpass anything you can buy. Think what you are saying is "time to head back to the drawing board" and work on your loads some more. Try a different powder ? bullet ? And remember, plus or minus a grain or two can make a big difference (within safety limits of course)..

August 11, 2002, 08:02 PM	#3
jjmorgan64 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Posts: 519	Keep at it, you'll will eventually get it, and it will be well worth all of the work. __________________ The Forty-Four spoke and it sent lead and smoke And seventeen inches of flame. -Marty Robbins JM

August 11, 2002, 11:48 PM	#4
larryw Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Posts: 336	Never quit, never surrender! You're eventually just one load from perfection. And if you're a true reloader, you'll tinker with that too. __________________ Learn about TR-069 remote management.

August 12, 2002, 12:08 AM	#5
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	How many rounds went into that .25" group? Does it do it all the time, or was it a one time event? Understand that a rifle that consistently groups at 1" can have, statistically, a smaller group at any time. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

August 12, 2002, 08:34 AM	#6
300winguy Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 70	dime size part of me says that I should keep tryiing to find a load that is really accurate but after seeing how the remington factory ammo shot part of me is thinking why. Before Sunday I had never shot a round of store bought ammo through the gun. I shot six groups of three rounds each of the store bought stuff and all were under the size of a dime. In fact one group only had two holes and when I checked closely I could see that one bullet went through the same hole as a previous. I was astounded! This rifle (CZ 527) has never done better than an inch with my own loads. It was an extreme shift to see it shoot like this. In fact I was on the verge of getting rid of the rifle for a more familiar Remington or Winchester.

August 12, 2002, 09:06 AM	#7
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	wow. Ok, so you have extablished that it wasn't a statistical fluke. Perhaps you should try to duplicate their load as much as you can. You should already know what bullet their using, and their cases are R-P I'm sure, and the primers are most likely Remington as well...try both regular and match. What bullet weight powder are you using? __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

August 11, 2002, 07:21 PM	#1
300winguy Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 70	When to call it quits At the gun range I lost some reloading confidence. Plain old green box remington ammo out shot every handload I took along to try out. The factory ammow shot .25 inch groups. My best handloads shot a little over an inch. Should I now just give up loading for my .223 and stick with remington factory ammo? At what point do you decide that you just can't better it?

August 11, 2002, 07:42 PM	#2
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Basic rules of handloading: #1 No matter what the factory makes, you can do better. #2 You have to have the patience and perserverence to continue on your quest until you have the perfect combination. It took me 6 years and thousands of combinations before I managed to get one of my .25-06's to shoot decently... __________________ http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

August 12, 2002, 12:53 PM	#8
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	I am(duh!) a big believer in handloading - - - - - - but one thing I'd do, is get the lot number from that box of Remington factory ammo. Then I'd hie meself back to that store and try to find several boxes--all I could easily afford - - - of the same ammo just to have on hand. Properly stored ammo doesn't get stale. And you'd have it to use for hunting until you locate the ultimate pet handload. No kidding. Best, Johnny Guest

August 12, 2002, 02:48 PM	#9
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Yeah, but how much did the ammo cost? Besides, that lot of ammo will eventually vanish, and you may find that your handloads are superior once more! Just go shoot some .22 for awhile, and don't let it bother you.

August 12, 2002, 03:44 PM	#10
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	I've had the same thing happen. My thin barrel Sako .223 shoots the Winchester 50 grain Ballistic Silvertip into 3 shot .5" groups regularly. I set out to duplicate the round as much as possible. I chronyed the round, measured it, took it apart, measured the case and worked up equally good loads using the same components except for powder. Companies switch powder frequently and what they use isn't always available so I loaded to equal the velocity of the factory ammo. With a couple of added tricks, like neck sizing, I've developed ammo even better. Paul Last edited by PJR; August 12, 2002 at 04:07 PM.

August 12, 2002, 04:46 PM	#11
300winguy Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 70	an odd box of ammo? The bullets are 55 gr power-lokt hollow points. Problem is a bought the lone box about three hours away from were I live when I happened to be passing by Gander Mountain. So this box could be a fluke? I have given some thought to ordering the same bullets from Midway and getting some Remington primers. I haven't shot much Remington ammunition in the past. Now out of curiosity I am going to have to go buy another box and give it a try, this coming weekend. One other interesting note, not sure if I mentioned earlier but it seemed like the hotter the barrel got the smaller the groups got. Really odd! I think I am going to have to look into this a little more. Oh, if I try to mimic the ammo, should I stick with the OAL length of the factory ammo? It was way under the max OAL length. Another thing, I have been necksizing my reloads, should I try full-length resizing?

August 12, 2002, 10:53 PM	#13
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	300winguy Reduce the variables as much as possible. I'd duplicate the OAL because it could be with that bullet shorter is better. I've found neck sizing works for me but full sizing might be the secret to this load. Only you can find out. The 527 I owned was accurate with ammo it liked but was a bit finnicky. The factory ammo seems to be the right combination for yours and gives you a good starting point to make it even better.

August 14, 2002, 09:22 PM	#14
moredes Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Posts: 325	At some point you may reach a point of diminishing returns. How expensive is the ammo, and can you afford OEM all the time for that gun? Will other lots shoot as well consistently? One thing you don't want to do is shoot out the barrel looking for a good reload. I'm crying when I say this, it took me almost 1000 rounds to find an accurate round for one of my rifles; unfortunately, the OEM accurate stuff was $1 per shot.

August 15, 2002, 12:12 AM	#15
tex_n_cal Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: North Carolina! Posts: 308	Got a chronograph? Check out that factory ammo, and you may find it's not going as fast as you think. I once had some WW 120 gr .25-06 that shot great. When I got around to clocking them, they were running about 2750 fps ! A good 250-300 fps below the cartridge's potential. One advantage of handloading is the ability to ensure that you are getting the full performance due, within rational safety limits, of course. Chronographing is just plain fun, anyway __________________ With top loads & hard cast bullets, a .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 special, .44 mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .500 Linebaugh Maximum, and .500 S&W will all shoot through Bison. To select the gun, determine how big a hole you want to put in the Bison, and how much recoil you can stand

August 15, 2002, 11:48 AM	#16
Nuts and Bolts Member Join Date: January 3, 2002 Location: Cold Lake, Alberta Posts: 19	Might be a concentricity problem with the reloads as well. If you have a way to check the run out of the factory ammo, and that of your reloads, it might reveal the problem. Just an idea. Another thing I have heard is that some rifles don't like to have the bullets seated too close to the lands. Hope this might be of help.

August 16, 2002, 11:00 AM	#17
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	The first load I tried for .223 was waaaaay better than factory loads. The problem with the 55 grain factory loads was they were too heavy for a 14:1 twist. I decided to try 45 grain hornet bullets, and 4198 powder (Seems to like light bullets.) and boom...... One hole groups at 75 yards. (That was the longest range I could shoot at a target back than.) Better trajectory too... Try changing bullet weights to match the twist in your rifle, if you haven't tried that already. Remingtons in .223 seem to like light bullets (Which is ok, mine is a crow gun anyway...) savages .223 seem to like heavy bullets. (Might have something to do with 9:1 twist.) Man, that hornet bullet at 223 velocities just explodes when it hits something.

August 20, 2002, 06:53 PM	#18
300winguy Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 70	Nuts and Bolts, your advice may very well be true. I tried seating the bullets as far out as possible and groups became very large in a hurry. I than seated the bullets way under max (like the factory stuff) and I shot .38 inch 3 shot group.

August 23, 2002, 11:45 PM	#19
dsteinman Member Join Date: August 12, 2002 Location: Sterling, Va. Posts: 36	Keep at it... You will find a load for your gun that will surpass anything you can buy. Think what you are saying is "time to head back to the drawing board" and work on your loads some more. Try a different powder ? bullet ? And remember, plus or minus a grain or two can make a big difference (within safety limits of course)..