Unarmed v. Knife

CReynolds · July 27, 2001, 10:17 AM

No time to be a hero, right? Isn't it best just to get out of there and tell yourself you're never going out without your sidearm again?

Coley

Spectre · July 27, 2001, 10:39 AM

Well, if you can evade, you should- unless, perhaps, there are others (family?) you feel obligated to protect.

The Observer · July 27, 2001, 11:32 AM

There were times we need to face the reality that there are particular situation that we cannot evade anymore a confrontation to a person wielding knife at us.

In one occasion that I am cornered by a person with a balisong (fan knife), I had to be ready whatever it may take place. At that moment, I am still aware to look on the ground or my srounding if I could pick up a stick or anything as an extension of my hand. I am lucky I saw one and use that as a weapon. To make the story short, I defended myself and the guy withdraw after a few strikes he received. But this is a rare moment that a stick or elongated material is around when needed.

Spectre · July 27, 2001, 02:10 PM

There is almost always *something* that can be pressed into service as a defensive tool. If you CAN use a tool, you should.

July 27, 2001, 02:15 PM

In any situation, if you can remove yourself from the equation, do it! The only exception is where you may stick around to defend someone else.

CReynolds · July 27, 2001, 02:32 PM

I agree that if others are around who I must defend, such as, wife, children, other family (except maybe inlaws

) than you have to stand and fight if they are not able to retreat safely along with you. Otherwise, as long as retreating is possible, the wise move is to get out of there.

Coley

Spectre · July 27, 2001, 02:49 PM

Even if one has a firearm, one should choose carefully before using lethal force. OTOH, if one is menaced at close range with a knife, I'd probably go with shooting first, asking questions (if you're so inclined) later.

FPrice · July 27, 2001, 03:17 PM

is a weapon.

One of the drills I do to myself in various places is to imagine an opponent coming at me with a weapon. I look around and try to determine what I could use to defend myself. Stick, chair, vase, ANYTHING I can pick up and use to discourage him as I exercise escape options for myself and anyone who might be with me. This obviously assumes that I do not have a firearm...OR...for some unknown reason I do not wish to announce that I have a firearm.

It may not be very manly, but I will most certainly forgive myself the next morning as I greet another day above ground or out of the hospital.

Spectre · July 27, 2001, 05:42 PM

Manly? Hell, the reasons why you fight are what determines the rightness, not the means you use. Once the war's on, anything goes.

(I do something similar, but it's become subconscious.)

LASur5r · July 27, 2001, 07:17 PM

Remember, the other guy started the ball rolling. He pulled the knife.

This is not a fight by the Duke of Marquesberrie's rules (or whomever wrote them). It's a knife against you...anything that you can do to remove the threat counts...this means Run! FEET Run!...or it could mean using anything at hand for a weapon....

Belt, anyone? Jacket? Vase? Potted plant? Dirt? and the list goes on.

Coronach · July 27, 2001, 11:21 PM

If you can run, run.

If you can't run, try to minimize your exposure to the threat. Attack if you must, but look to get away at the first possible opportunity. RUN LIKE HELL when you get the chance.

If you truly must stand your ground, concentrate on the knife. GET THE KNIFE. Don't try to duke it out with him unless you can get an improvised weapon or are REALLY sure of your ability to take him out fast. GET THE KNIFE. Be prepared to get cut. You will bleed. Get the knife. Be advised that while knives are very good killers, they have a (relatively) lousy stopping potential. As in, you probably won't be incapacitated quickly, but you my bleed out en route to the hospital. So GET THE KNIFE. If you are sticking around at this point, you are protecting something worth dying for...so don't worry about whether you die later, you're alive now. GET THE KNIFE.

Oh, and, carry a gun.

Mike

ICBentley · July 28, 2001, 10:09 PM

A streetfighter I respect tells me to wrap my jacket around my weak-blocking arm if possible. Deflect the weapon, sure but WATCH and FIGHT THE ATTACKER not the weapon. Use any weapon or object available from a chair to a handful of dirt (thrown in the attacker's face).

I am also told that unless you are much more athletic than the attacker that turning to run is most likely to get you cut/stabbed in the back.

I hope neither of us is forced to learn from experience.

Bentley

"The things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." --Aristotle

eyeball · July 29, 2001, 01:18 AM

*in that one girl's voice* "Run Forrest run!"

CReynolds · July 30, 2001, 12:08 PM

If I had to fight unarmed against a knife, I would be most concerned with attacks to my heart, neck and face. Slicing cuts to my arms would eventually disable me due to loss of blood, and perhaps even severing an artery or ligament. For the most part, though, I am protecting the centerline of my body from the waste up.

What do you think?

Coley

Spectre · July 30, 2001, 04:30 PM

There are large arteries high up on the leg that should also be protected. Slash one, and you'll bleed out posthaste.

Concentrate on the attacker. If that knife was lying there by itself, you wouldn't be afraid, would you? Overconcentrate on the tool, and you WILL die. I am not saying not be be AWARE of where the tool is, but remember the attacker is the threat.

MP Freeman · July 30, 2001, 05:06 PM

Of coarse evade the area. But in this scenerio, I'm unarmed? And assuming I can't escape safely, then my wife should use her firearm in a defensive manner. As in shoot to stop.

Regards,
MP

DFBonnett · July 30, 2001, 06:24 PM

Regrettably, some years ago I found myself in a confrontation with a knife-wielding mugger. Due to the location, there was no place to run. I used my briefcase as a shield and attacked into the threat. Just a minor cut and the confrontation ended in my favor. I live in Nazi Jersey where CCW is just for the politically connected but I carried anyway after that as long as I was in that line of work.

Rebeldon · July 30, 2001, 07:26 PM

If you are wearing a coat or a jacket, and you have time, remove it and use it as a shield, and then yell as loud and as fiercely as you can. You might get your hands and arms cut, but hopefully your torso and neck will be shielded. If you are successful, your attacker should bolt for fear of bringing too much attention to himself. If he is determined to harm you despite your valiant fight and all your yelling, try to get him to chase you. But keep yelling! It is much harder, but not impossible, for him to plunge a knife into you if he is running after you. You might even try yelling, "Police, police!" They really hate that.

If you really have balls, act like you are going for a gun. If you are familiar with the motion, you might be able to fake it pretty good. Move in the direction which is the best place to run at same time. If you do this, you are controlling him. He will have to do one of three things: (1) run away, (2) lunge at you , (3) or freeze him. If he runs--great! You run the other way, while yelling that your are going to blow his head off. If he lunges at you, it was probably in haste, and he is scared, and at least he is lunging at you when you called for it, making it easier for you to anticipate his movement. If he freezes, run! This is why you are already moving toward the direction you want to run. Now, your attacker must decide whether or not to chase you. He still may not realize you were just bluffing, and his decision will be difficult. If he realizes you were bluffing, you have a head start. Warning: You attacker will be angry

once he realizes he has been fooled, which might make him more determined to harm you.

If all else fails, tell your attacker, with the best effeminate voice you can, that you have AIDS and that you will bleed all over him if he cuts you.

Mort · July 31, 2001, 02:05 AM

A gun may not be of immediate use if you are surprised at close range. Inside of a few yards, most people are functionally unarmed if they don't have a weapon already in their hand. There just isn't enough time.

If you are at a range where one of your options is "defend now", I'm not sure how one might effect an escape, as knife range is a place of milliseconds.

Finally, when you're unarmed, it's very difficult (and that's the understatement of the day) to stay alive against a determined knife-wielder. You may already be boned. Therefore, situational awareness is paramount.

Rainbow Six · July 31, 2001, 02:57 AM

Here's a tip...

It has been proven (can't quote the study sources from memory) that distraction/attention division is a great defensive (and offensive!) tactic. It throughs the attacker's brain into neutral, so to speak. Yelling *anything* off the wall will give you some time and even the odds somewhat.

I know Cops who have screamed "Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells...!!!" at top voulme when trying to cuff a less than cooperative suspect. While they are thinking, "Jingle Bells? This [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] is crazy!" their minds can't think with any clarity of focus, "He's trying to cuff me!", at the same time. It works...

Also, in combat, both participants "expect" certain things from their opponent. An attacker generally expects one of four things.

1- A retreat by the defender away from the attack, or "Run!".

2- A lateral move to sidestep the attack, or run for escape/cover, or "Oh [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], it's on!!".

3- A frontal assault toward the atacker, or "Rush that bastage!!".

4- Nothing, or

Do something, ANYTHING they are NOT expecting! One option (maybe not the best by any means) is to go to the ground and defend with your feet. This let's you use the strongest muscles in your body, the legs, against the attacker. Your legs/feet will most likely be cut but you will most likely have a bigger impact on the attacker with each blow. The length advantage (of most people

)afforded by the legs as opposed to the arms might also help keep the knife away from vital areas

Of course, screamin' Jingle Bells at high volume while you take your course of action will add to the surprise/distraction of the movement, making it even more effective in giving you mental advantage. When I have drilled on these tactics, these actions were preliminary to drawing my pistol. The "Go to ground" tactic could be quite effective when faced with a close quarters knife threat if you are armed with a handgun. I'd suggest practicing going to the ground quickly and then drawing.

Just some survival tips I've picked up over the years in LE.

R6

madgrad · July 31, 2001, 02:59 AM

Knives are a close quarters weapon. Unarmed against a knife is suicide. Your first defense against a knife should be to run away as fast as possible in the opposite direction. If you can't do that Look for a Rock or stick, or anything you can use as a weapon against the attacker. Just remember as general rule people who wield knives always have more than one blade on them at any time. If the guy is a professional knife fighter, you won't see the blade until it's into you. Also all knife defenses are generally based on the oh **** principal. Keep that in mind before you even think about putting yourself in a situation were knives are involved.

July 27, 2001, 10:17 AM	#1
CReynolds Member Join Date: March 16, 2001 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 49	Unarmed v. Knife No time to be a hero, right? Isn't it best just to get out of there and tell yourself you're never going out without your sidearm again? Coley __________________ Cead Mile Failte

July 27, 2001, 02:32 PM	#6
CReynolds Member Join Date: March 16, 2001 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 49	I agree that if others are around who I must defend, such as, wife, children, other family (except maybe inlaws ) than you have to stand and fight if they are not able to retreat safely along with you. Otherwise, as long as retreating is possible, the wise move is to get out of there. Coley __________________ Cead Mile Failte

July 27, 2001, 03:17 PM	#8
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	Anything you can pick and throw..... is a weapon. One of the drills I do to myself in various places is to imagine an opponent coming at me with a weapon. I look around and try to determine what I could use to defend myself. Stick, chair, vase, ANYTHING I can pick up and use to discourage him as I exercise escape options for myself and anyone who might be with me. This obviously assumes that I do not have a firearm...OR...for some unknown reason I do not wish to announce that I have a firearm. It may not be very manly, but I will most certainly forgive myself the next morning as I greet another day above ground or out of the hospital. __________________ Frosty Price "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

July 27, 2001, 07:17 PM	#10
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Manly? Remember, the other guy started the ball rolling. He pulled the knife. This is not a fight by the Duke of Marquesberrie's rules (or whomever wrote them). It's a knife against you...anything that you can do to remove the threat counts...this means Run! FEET Run!...or it could mean using anything at hand for a weapon.... Belt, anyone? Jacket? Vase? Potted plant? Dirt? and the list goes on.

July 27, 2001, 11:21 PM	#11
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Ok... If you can run, run. If you can't run, try to minimize your exposure to the threat. Attack if you must, but look to get away at the first possible opportunity. RUN LIKE HELL when you get the chance. If you truly must stand your ground, concentrate on the knife. GET THE KNIFE. Don't try to duke it out with him unless you can get an improvised weapon or are REALLY sure of your ability to take him out fast. GET THE KNIFE. Be prepared to get cut. You will bleed. Get the knife. Be advised that while knives are very good killers, they have a (relatively) lousy stopping potential. As in, you probably won't be incapacitated quickly, but you my bleed out en route to the hospital. So GET THE KNIFE. If you are sticking around at this point, you are protecting something worth dying for...so don't worry about whether you die later, you're alive now. GET THE KNIFE. Oh, and, carry a gun. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

July 27, 2001, 10:39 AM	#2
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Well, if you can evade, you should- unless, perhaps, there are others (family?) you feel obligated to protect.

July 27, 2001, 11:32 AM	#3
The Observer Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Location: Pacific Rim Posts: 87	There were times we need to face the reality that there are particular situation that we cannot evade anymore a confrontation to a person wielding knife at us. In one occasion that I am cornered by a person with a balisong (fan knife), I had to be ready whatever it may take place. At that moment, I am still aware to look on the ground or my srounding if I could pick up a stick or anything as an extension of my hand. I am lucky I saw one and use that as a weapon. To make the story short, I defended myself and the guy withdraw after a few strikes he received. But this is a rare moment that a stick or elongated material is around when needed.

July 27, 2001, 02:10 PM	#4
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	There is almost always something that can be pressed into service as a defensive tool. If you CAN use a tool, you should.

July 27, 2001, 02:15 PM	#5
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	In any situation, if you can remove yourself from the equation, do it! The only exception is where you may stick around to defend someone else.

July 27, 2001, 02:49 PM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Even if one has a firearm, one should choose carefully before using lethal force. OTOH, if one is menaced at close range with a knife, I'd probably go with shooting first, asking questions (if you're so inclined) later.

July 27, 2001, 05:42 PM	#9
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Manly? Hell, the reasons why you fight are what determines the rightness, not the means you use. Once the war's on, anything goes. (I do something similar, but it's become subconscious.)

July 28, 2001, 10:09 PM	#12
ICBentley Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 169	A streetfighter I respect tells me to wrap my jacket around my weak-blocking arm if possible. Deflect the weapon, sure but WATCH and FIGHT THE ATTACKER not the weapon. Use any weapon or object available from a chair to a handful of dirt (thrown in the attacker's face). I am also told that unless you are much more athletic than the attacker that turning to run is most likely to get you cut/stabbed in the back. I hope neither of us is forced to learn from experience. Bentley "The things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." --Aristotle

July 29, 2001, 01:18 AM	#13
eyeball Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2001 Posts: 84	in that one girl's voice "Run Forrest run!"

July 30, 2001, 12:08 PM	#14
CReynolds Member Join Date: March 16, 2001 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 49	Protect vital organs If I had to fight unarmed against a knife, I would be most concerned with attacks to my heart, neck and face. Slicing cuts to my arms would eventually disable me due to loss of blood, and perhaps even severing an artery or ligament. For the most part, though, I am protecting the centerline of my body from the waste up. What do you think? Coley __________________ Cead Mile Failte

July 30, 2001, 04:30 PM	#15
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	There are large arteries high up on the leg that should also be protected. Slash one, and you'll bleed out posthaste. Concentrate on the attacker. If that knife was lying there by itself, you wouldn't be afraid, would you? Overconcentrate on the tool, and you WILL die. I am not saying not be be AWARE of where the tool is, but remember the attacker is the threat.

July 30, 2001, 05:06 PM	#16
MP Freeman Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Secret volcano lair Posts: 489	Of coarse evade the area. But in this scenerio, I'm unarmed? And assuming I can't escape safely, then my wife should use her firearm in a defensive manner. As in shoot to stop. Regards, MP

July 30, 2001, 06:24 PM	#17
DFBonnett Junior member Join Date: November 1, 1998 Posts: 109	Regrettably, some years ago I found myself in a confrontation with a knife-wielding mugger. Due to the location, there was no place to run. I used my briefcase as a shield and attacked into the threat. Just a minor cut and the confrontation ended in my favor. I live in Nazi Jersey where CCW is just for the politically connected but I carried anyway after that as long as I was in that line of work.

July 30, 2001, 07:26 PM	#18
Rebeldon Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2001 Location: Cowford Posts: 361	If you are wearing a coat or a jacket, and you have time, remove it and use it as a shield, and then yell as loud and as fiercely as you can. You might get your hands and arms cut, but hopefully your torso and neck will be shielded. If you are successful, your attacker should bolt for fear of bringing too much attention to himself. If he is determined to harm you despite your valiant fight and all your yelling, try to get him to chase you. But keep yelling! It is much harder, but not impossible, for him to plunge a knife into you if he is running after you. You might even try yelling, "Police, police!" They really hate that. If you really have balls, act like you are going for a gun. If you are familiar with the motion, you might be able to fake it pretty good. Move in the direction which is the best place to run at same time. If you do this, you are controlling him. He will have to do one of three things: (1) run away, (2) lunge at you , (3) or freeze him. If he runs--great! You run the other way, while yelling that your are going to blow his head off. If he lunges at you, it was probably in haste, and he is scared, and at least he is lunging at you when you called for it, making it easier for you to anticipate his movement. If he freezes, run! This is why you are already moving toward the direction you want to run. Now, your attacker must decide whether or not to chase you. He still may not realize you were just bluffing, and his decision will be difficult. If he realizes you were bluffing, you have a head start. Warning: You attacker will be angry once he realizes he has been fooled, which might make him more determined to harm you. If all else fails, tell your attacker, with the best effeminate voice you can, that you have AIDS and that you will bleed all over him if he cuts you. __________________ Deo Vindice

July 31, 2001, 02:05 AM	#19
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	A gun may not be of immediate use if you are surprised at close range. Inside of a few yards, most people are functionally unarmed if they don't have a weapon already in their hand. There just isn't enough time. If you are at a range where one of your options is "defend now", I'm not sure how one might effect an escape, as knife range is a place of milliseconds. Finally, when you're unarmed, it's very difficult (and that's the understatement of the day) to stay alive against a determined knife-wielder. You may already be boned. Therefore, situational awareness is paramount.

July 31, 2001, 02:57 AM	#20
Rainbow Six Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 1,314	Here's a tip... It has been proven (can't quote the study sources from memory) that distraction/attention division is a great defensive (and offensive!) tactic. It throughs the attacker's brain into neutral, so to speak. Yelling anything off the wall will give you some time and even the odds somewhat. I know Cops who have screamed "Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells...!!!" at top voulme when trying to cuff a less than cooperative suspect. While they are thinking, "Jingle Bells? This [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] is crazy!" their minds can't think with any clarity of focus, "He's trying to cuff me!", at the same time. It works... Also, in combat, both participants "expect" certain things from their opponent. An attacker generally expects one of four things. 1- A retreat by the defender away from the attack, or "Run!". 2- A lateral move to sidestep the attack, or run for escape/cover, or "Oh [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], it's on!!". 3- A frontal assault toward the atacker, or "Rush that bastage!!". 4- Nothing, or Do something, ANYTHING they are NOT expecting! One option (maybe not the best by any means) is to go to the ground and defend with your feet. This let's you use the strongest muscles in your body, the legs, against the attacker. Your legs/feet will most likely be cut but you will most likely have a bigger impact on the attacker with each blow. The length advantage (of most people)afforded by the legs as opposed to the arms might also help keep the knife away from vital areas Of course, screamin' Jingle Bells at high volume while you take your course of action will add to the surprise/distraction of the movement, making it even more effective in giving you mental advantage. When I have drilled on these tactics, these actions were preliminary to drawing my pistol. The "Go to ground" tactic could be quite effective when faced with a close quarters knife threat if you are armed with a handgun. I'd suggest practicing going to the ground quickly and then drawing. Just some survival tips I've picked up over the years in LE. R6 __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum... "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

July 31, 2001, 02:59 AM	#21
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Knives are a close quarters weapon. Unarmed against a knife is suicide. Your first defense against a knife should be to run away as fast as possible in the opposite direction. If you can't do that Look for a Rock or stick, or anything you can use as a weapon against the attacker. Just remember as general rule people who wield knives always have more than one blade on them at any time. If the guy is a professional knife fighter, you won't see the blade until it's into you. Also all knife defenses are generally based on the oh **** principal. Keep that in mind before you even think about putting yourself in a situation were knives are involved.