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January 31, 2016, 07:11 PM | #1 |
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Saw an interesting CETME malfunction at the range today
Went to the public range for some stress relief today. Everybody on the line was shooting an AR-15 when I pulled up (myself included) but when I looked to my right, a gentleman next to me was uncasing a Century CETME. Since I'm currently building one (it's at least a couple of months away from completion) and had never fired one, I asked him if he might let me put a couple rounds through it in exchange for shooting my VZ-58.
He was shooting Perfecta .308 soft point ammo. Every 3rd shot or so, he would have a malfunction. The round would fail to eject completely and would try to load another, resulting in something like a double feed. The ejected cases from these jams looked horrendous. Not just typical flutes and dents from CETME ejection, but completely smashed and torn case mouths. He ejected one loaded cartridge that tried to feed, and found it had smashed the case mouth so badly that the bullet wiggled in the case and probably could have been pulled out completely by light hand pressure. Per the owner, it was normally fed white box 7.62 NATO (presumably XM80C) which had no issues. Anybody seen something like this with these rifles? On another note, I did get to shoot it a couple of times before it malfunctioned on me. Talk about a rifle to get your heart pumping. I thought my VZ 58 with a muzzle brake was pretty adrenalizing. Can't wait until mine is completed.
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January 31, 2016, 07:24 PM | #2 |
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HK/CETME rifles with their fluted chambers, like NATO spec loads with thicker brass.
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January 31, 2016, 07:35 PM | #3 |
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The Century builds are known to kind of suck.
My PTR-91 is an AWESOME beast, and runs like a tops. They are FUN FUN FUN to run at the range, and would make excellent short stops for home defense or LE use when you need to put down the threat RIGHT NOW and also need something to "reach out and touch someone" at ranges of 900 meters and beyond. |
January 31, 2016, 07:38 PM | #4 |
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Sounds like your fellow rangegoer found the achillies heel of the Hk/CETME design. The extractor spring is the weakest link on the design and when damaged or weakened will cause malfunctions like you describe, sometimes it only takes one or two failures to feed to ruin the spring if it hits the extractor just right.
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January 31, 2016, 07:49 PM | #5 |
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I was aware of their proclivity for NATO brass or steel cased ammunition, but always though that was for stuck chambers so they didn't rip. These cases weren't being beat up so bad on extraction, it was the sheer energy of the bolt carrier slamming home into a round that didn't feed that destroyed it. Wish I had taken some pictures.
When I get mine, I plan to feed it Silver Bear zinc plated steel (I've had the best luck out of Barnaul ammo) and 7.62 NATO only.
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January 31, 2016, 08:43 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Despite the dimensions being the same and SOME loads being the same not all .308 Win ammo is suitable for rifles made to shoot the 7.62mm NATO (7.62x51mm). Sporting ammo, hunting ammo in .308 WIN is generally hotter than GI ammo, and often with a much different pressure curve. Great in bolt guns, pumps, lever, and civilian .308 semis. Maybe ok in some military semis, maybe not. Commercial .308 can be a couple hundred fps faster than GI ball. I had an HK 91, which was flawless with European milsurp ammo. IT had issues with USGI ball ammo. And I was never foolish enough to try commercial .308 hunting ammo in it.
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January 31, 2016, 08:55 PM | #7 |
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Perfecta is carried by Walmart and is imported by somebody else - ZQI if I remember correctly. It is standard commercial .308 Win, and for some reason I'm thinking that it was 150 grain. It's hard to find information on it or how hot it's loaded.
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January 31, 2016, 09:01 PM | #8 |
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After reading your post again and paying a little more attention, your right, probably not much to do with the extractor. Its hard to imagine simply the ammo would cause such issues though.
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January 31, 2016, 09:17 PM | #9 |
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I had two HK91's back in the late 90's, early 2000's. They ate everything I ever fed them, with the bulk being Euro surplus, USGI, and my reloads loaded to basically USGI specs. I never had any feeding issues with any of them. The only real issues with them ammo wise, was they were harder on the brass than most, especially if you didnt have a port buffer on the gun. Even with it, 6-8 loads was about all you would get out of the brass.
Ive had a number of different "kit" guns over the years, and for the most part, all were problematical. FAL's, AK's, AR's, I never had very good luck with them, and they pretty much turned me off of things not put together by the people who make them for the militaries that use them, especially when it comes to the foreign guns. I was never real impressed with any of the CETME's I saw. Some looked better than others, some worked better than others. They certainly werent HK's. |
February 1, 2016, 12:03 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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February 1, 2016, 12:48 AM | #11 |
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I bought an M1A last summer, I know, it`s not the same as a CETME, but the slamfire literature included with the rifle said not to use lead soft point ammo...as it causes the bolt to slow down on chambering...The soft point is actually dragging or rubbing the top of the receiver/chamber...
When I went back to GI FMJ, I had no more chambering problems...Not saying that`s whats causing the problems, but It may be something to look at. Plastic tip ammo was problem free in my rifle. |
February 1, 2016, 08:02 AM | #12 |
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Century rifles can have problems with not enough bolt gap and ground bolt heads. That couples with shooting factory .308 there could be more than one issue going on. I had a Century CETME and it is the only fire arm I have sold. I fed it about 300 rounds of Radway green and South African 7.62× 51. The rifle had a bolt gap of .08 which is on the low side. The last time I fired it the projectiles exited the barrel but the mag blew up like a balloon. All the rounds stayed in the mag but all jumbled around. These rifles have to be tuned/built right. If not they are dangerous IMHO
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February 1, 2016, 08:21 AM | #13 |
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Sounds like a combination of soft brass and over driving the rifle's operating system.
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February 1, 2016, 10:04 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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February 1, 2016, 12:50 PM | #15 | |
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In some cases, certainly. But "surplus" ammo also includes perfectly good ammo that is surplused simply because it is past a "use by" date, without actual testing, and surplus also includes contract overruns, and ammo that is still "issuable" but surplus to needs. Surplus ammo MAY be crap, even some lots of stuff only 30 years old have gone bad (usually due to poor storage,) but its not all bad ammo, automatically.
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February 1, 2016, 01:19 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
Since the ejector pivots in triggerbox, which, in turn, is housed in the gripframe, any excess vertical play can be problematic. If the gripframe has been converted to a clip-on style poorly it could allow the front of the gripframe to move up/down excessively, which can cause the ejector to miss the spent brass. This can be an intermittent problem, because if the gripframe is pushed forward/up on firing, no problem, but if it's pulled down, that little movement can pull the ejector down and away from the bottom of the bolt This is something to look for when you "clip and pin" your CETME lower.
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February 1, 2016, 02:07 PM | #17 | ||
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A bud of mine worked on gaging at GOCO US Army ammunition plants. If the contractor has completed the military requirements they can use the factory to produce new ammunition and sell it on the commercial market. This is why people see new "surplus" ammunition. This is factory new and not out on the market because it was evaluated to be too old to safely issue or too old to store. When shooters buy military surplus ammunition, ammunition that was in military inventory, till it was inspected and rejected, shooters should understand the process and the implications. Militaries have budgets, just like all of us. While there is massive incompetence in Ordnance Departments, particularly the US Army Ordnance Department, at the lower level, there are good guys trying to do the right thing and remove old ammunition before it hurts one of their troopers. They also know about the issues of gunpowder auto ignition, and even though Depots still go Kaboom, nobody wants that to happen. These guys are pretty good at getting old and dangerous ammunition out of the system just when it becomes old and dangerous. This is not something the shooting community wants to hear. Instead, shooters are want to believe that they got new magic beans, that they got their new magic beans at a great price, and that their new, cheap magic beans are gonna last forever. If wishes were fishes we'd all be throwing nets. If wishes were horses we'd all be riding. There are risks to old ammunition, some of the stuff has, and will, blow up guns. I have written extensively on this subject, because the denial is massive, and because confirmation bias is so high on this subject. For all of those who claim that their old ammunition is as good as new, well, what tests did you conduct? Go look up Mil Std 286 and tell me which of the propellant tests you used in your evaluation. Or, tell me what tests the ammunition inspector used on your particular lot and why it failed those tests. And what was the previous life history of your old surplus ammunition? I'll bet you think it was stored in a nice climatically controlled environment, like your house. Complete with heating and air conditioning. Well, it probably was not.
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If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. Last edited by Slamfire; February 1, 2016 at 07:11 PM. |
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February 1, 2016, 08:31 PM | #18 |
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Perfecta Ammo
" It's hard to find information on it or how hot it's loaded."
Have you ever heard of "Google" or doing a "Search"? Found the below info. on the first line of a "Google Search"... "Perfecta Line Ammo - Fiocchi United Kingdom Inc. http://www.fiocchiuk.com/site/index....erfecta%20Line Check out the Fiocchi line of Perfecta Line ammo Sport ammunition. Fiocchi ammunition, high quality Made in Italy." Come on, NOT HARD at all! T. |
February 1, 2016, 09:17 PM | #19 |
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I've shot surplus ammo for about 40yrs, in many different common and uncommon calibers. In some cases, surplus ammo was all that was available.
Never a problem, and some of that ammo, I sure wish I could find again. Plenty of Century CETMEs had problems...I read all about them on the old cetmerifles site. But the one I bought worked great, and was pretty accurate. All I shot in it was South African surplus NATO ammo, and it was great stuff. Back then, I think it was $35/200, in a battle pack. So, you just go ahead and stay away from milsurp ammo. I'll buy all I can afford.
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February 1, 2016, 10:49 PM | #20 |
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Ive had pretty good luck with surplus over the years, but there were a few times we had issues. Some lots were recalled due to guns coming apart, some were very corrosive, some had powder degradation issues.
If youre sitting on older surplus that you bought back years ago, you had best be checking on it. Same goes for reloads. In the past couple of years, Ive had issues with both, and it was powder degradation that was the problem. |
February 2, 2016, 10:04 AM | #21 | ||||||||||
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Surplus ammunition is cheap for a reason. I would recommend to anyone who owns a machine gun not to risk the catastrophic destruction that would follow if an overpressure round of surplus ammunition blew up in the chamber.
The US Government decided to limit the number of machine guns in civilian hands, the population will not increase, and if you blow up your $20,000 to $100,000 dollar machine gun shooting crappy surplus ammunition, you won't get it back. If a machine gunner loses the registered part in a blow up, the BATF is not going to give him another back. The gun is lost forever, as intended. Now shooters with $800 firearms, if the thing blows up in their face due to cheap ammunition, the loss of the firearm is not too great of a financial burden. Though if the shooter loses a hand or eye, the future will not be so great. Surplus ammunition was evaluated by the owning military and removed from service because it was too unsafe to issue and too unsafe to store. If after this warning your firearm blows all to heck with an overpressure surplus cartridge, please be man enough to post your experience so we can all learn from it. It may not be the first round, but fire enough, and there will be a last round. HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/sh...5-Gun-Blown-up Quote:
Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM 'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said: Quote:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....80&postcount=6 Quote:
Garand Blowup with WWII ball http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....3&postcount=13 Quote:
Garand Blowup with old US ammunition. http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088 Quote:
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/M1%20Blowup%20WWII%20Am Catastrophic Failure http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...rophic-Failure Quote:
HXP at Perry . . . http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=115939 Quote:
Stiff Bolt Handle on SC 03a3 http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread....pressure+greek Quote:
Chilean 75 kaboom on IMBEL http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=142685 Quote:
Bad Bad 7.62x25 Ammo http://www.ramanon.com/forum/showthr...d-7-62x25-Ammo Quote:
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