Possible straw sale entrapment attempt? - Page 2

EODK9Trainer424 · January 29, 2013, 06:26 AM

I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting.

eastbank · January 29, 2013, 07:28 AM

i thought a strawman buy was when a person bought a firearm for a person who is disabled from buying it himself and knowing it. if both are legaly able to buy or sell a firearm,does it fall under the strawman law? eastbank.

Willie Sutton · January 29, 2013, 10:13 AM

I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting.

Nobody who is not wearing a tin foil hat would ever believe that this was a LE Sting. Even the most incompetent LEO in the USA would understand that this would be entrapment and that it would never stand in court. It would require the straw buyer to approach the "bystander" and freely ask for them to assist in a purchase, with that "bystander" being a LEO for it to be a good case. The chances of this occuring "freely" approaches zero.

Media sting... probably not.

Poorly socialized nutcase trying to be helpful? Most probably.

"When I hear hooves behind me in Arizona, I think horses, not zebras"

The simplest explainations are usually the right ones.

Willie

.

**Spats McGee** · January 29, 2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastbank

i thought a strawman buy was when a person bought a firearm for a person who is disabled from buying it himself and knowing it. if both are legaly able to buy or sell a firearm,does it fall under the strawman law? eastbank.

The 4473 has a specific question regarding "Are you the actual purchaser/transferee of the firearm?" The FFL may not transfer the firearm to one who is not the actual purchaser/transferee of the firearm. There are some examples on the back of the 4473: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

2ndsojourn · January 29, 2013, 10:32 AM

"I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting."

Like a previous poster said, maybe not a LEO sting for the buyer, but a set-up for the gun shop.

godot · January 29, 2013, 01:37 PM

While it could be a sting, it could also be an attempted theft.

"give me the money & I'll buy it & meet you over in the food court in 15 minutes".

Guy takes your money and leaves by another exit. Good luck calling the police and saying you were trying to make an illegal gun purchase and the person ran off with your money. The only thing that will net is a possible court date and an appearance on Americas Dumbest Criminals. Something like this was actually reported on News of The Weird. Someone bought some cocaine they found inferior and took it into a police station to complain they were ripped off and gave the LEO the sub par cocaine.

In short you were right not to take his offer.

DFrame · January 29, 2013, 02:58 PM

Entrapment is the LEAST understood concept in law enforcement. What most civilians believe to be entrapment is NOT.

horatioo · January 29, 2013, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Entrapment is the LEAST understood concept in law enforcement. What most civilians believe to be entrapment is NOT.
__________________

Only because courts quit defining things the same way the dictionary does. It's the same with the second amendment or the commerce clause or whatever, they don't mean what they say, but what some court says they say.

MLeake · January 29, 2013, 03:40 PM

I find it conceivable that the guy could have had a hidden cameraman, and may have wanted to be the next Geraldo.

Why worry about facts when you could get air time?

JoeDorn · January 29, 2013, 05:53 PM

I don't understand something...

If I fill out the paperwork in an acceptable manner, the store (in this case WalMart) calls in for the background check and then completes the sale, possibly with even an escort to the door before receiving the gun, and then once outside immediately I sell the gun or pass it to a ineligible person, How can the original vendor (WalMart) be held responsible?

Jayster · January 29, 2013, 08:27 PM

Let me assure anyone that doubts the story, the story IS true.

100% true.

Now what or who the guy was is another question.

The way he was hanging around the counter off to the side was weird.
The way he was dressed was weird.
The information he was freely sharing was weird, that had AR's for sale, that his brother was into them.
That he didn't know a thing about Feinstein's proposed bill was weird, at least to me considering his being so into guns and ARs. The bill info was out at that time even though it had not been officially introduced.
Offering to buy the gun for me and in the same sentence acknowledging it would be a straw buy was weird.

Now he may have been up to any number of things or none at all.
Regardless I know I made the right decision.

Willie Sutton · January 29, 2013, 11:19 PM

^^ Absolutely. You did the right thing. it woild have been illegal to have done otherwise.

It's very unlikely that he was a LEO of any sort.

Media sting.. nutcase... who knows. Who cares?

Willie

.

Ben Towe · January 30, 2013, 06:46 AM

Maybe he was undercover LE and maybe he was just some odd duckling who really had no clue; either way you did the right thing. We've had a few undercovers snoop around the gun shops around here before, and they're generally much as you described the gentleman in your account. Dresses the part, tries hard to fit in and join in conversation, but it's always a little off. Generally, they're easy to spot if you are a local. Never seen one attempt to initiate a straw sale around here (far less likely to fly in a small LGS than in a Walmart), they usually stay around until a transaction takes place and then they're in the wind and you never see them again. Of course, I can't prove they were LE, but you sometimes just know.

shafter · February 1, 2013, 06:55 PM

I believe the story but I doubt it was a sting. In any case the OP did the right thing by walking away. There are plenty of simple minded people in the gun culture who just want to help out. Coulda been one of those, or a scam of some sort. We'll never know.

Edward429451 · February 1, 2013, 11:56 PM

It doesn't have to be LE or even legit set up to make waves with it ala 20/20 or Geraldo type of crap. They could air it and legit or not it would make waves and cast a poor light on gunowners. You were right to listen to your spidey sense tingling and leave.

9mm · February 2, 2013, 02:36 AM

I carry a voice recorder must of the time, so if I heard him say that, + it was recorded voically to back me up, couldn't you arrest him/citizen arrest/dial 911?

9mm · February 2, 2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

i thought a strawman buy was when a person bought a firearm for a person who is disabled from buying it himself and knowing it. if both are legaly able to buy or sell a firearm,does it fall under the strawman law? eastbank.

If person A and person B were law abidding citizens no criminal history, both CCW permits/etc.. So if A bought for B or B bought for A, its a felon beause you lie on 4473(federal document) and thats a lie = you now criminal.

jimbob86 · February 2, 2013, 02:47 AM

Quote:

"selling illegal guns", or "selling guns illegally"? There is a distinction

A distinction without difference, to the Low Information Voters out there in the TV viewing audience!

therealdeal · February 2, 2013, 06:12 AM

It does not make sense in my opinion that this guy(no matter how gun literate or illiterate) would be willing to buy you a gun under his name, social security number, etc.

That being said I can't speculate as to what happened andor why he was making this conversation. Maybe he was touting you: sizing you up for a ripoff. Some people are always on the look out for money as everyone knows if they are willing to commit robberies for drugs and so-on.

Again pure speculation but if it was a LEO but not a sting(I am not convinced either), maybe you were off in some way? I don't mean you were off but maybe he was bitin that bait to see or confirm if you were. I don't know if you dress like a thug? I don't know if you are the opposite but look a little gruff? I don't know your age. I can say this would be profiling and not fair/legaL. You said your license wouldn't allow a sale...maybe he was gonna get you talking and then you know how that can go when a LEO lets a perp start talking and digging himself or herself in a hole which eventually leads him to being able to officially check you out, search you, etc. That isn't entrapment if he ends up talking to you and then gets you for something else, right....a warrant, something illegal in your pockets, etc.

All I know is I can only think of a couple reasons why this man would be willing to offer to buy you a gun under his name/social security number. I mean is he looking for a lifelong "friend", someone he can befriend to later exploit, is he an LEO, is he a secret shooper, is he a reporter/journalist/anti gun activist? Either way you made the right decision(in my opinion) to immediately distance yourself from the situation. I do not believe it would have been a good idea to 'play' with this clown, and I donot think trying to "get the goods on this guy" would've been smart either.

January 29, 2013, 06:26 AM	#26
EODK9Trainer424 Member Join Date: January 22, 2013 Location: Northern VA Posts: 19	I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting. __________________ "The More People I meet the More I Like My Dog"

January 29, 2013, 02:58 PM	#32
DFrame Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2008 Location: central Illinois Posts: 451	Entrapment is the LEAST understood concept in law enforcement. What most civilians believe to be entrapment is NOT. __________________ Mark Lane to William Buckley: "Have you ever referred to Jessee Jackson as an ignoramus?" Buckley: "If I didn't, I should have"

January 29, 2013, 05:53 PM	#35
JoeDorn Member Join Date: May 24, 2010 Location: Belton, Texas Posts: 26	I don't understand something... If I fill out the paperwork in an acceptable manner, the store (in this case WalMart) calls in for the background check and then completes the sale, possibly with even an escort to the door before receiving the gun, and then once outside immediately I sell the gun or pass it to a ineligible person, How can the original vendor (WalMart) be held responsible? __________________ Joe Dorn, W5VEX Belton, Texas NRA Benefactor, GOA, SAF & TSRA Lifer

January 29, 2013, 08:27 PM	#36
Jayster Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 74	OP here. Let me assure anyone that doubts the story, the story IS true. 100% true. Now what or who the guy was is another question. The way he was hanging around the counter off to the side was weird. The way he was dressed was weird. The information he was freely sharing was weird, that had AR's for sale, that his brother was into them. That he didn't know a thing about Feinstein's proposed bill was weird, at least to me considering his being so into guns and ARs. The bill info was out at that time even though it had not been officially introduced. Offering to buy the gun for me and in the same sentence acknowledging it would be a straw buy was weird. Now he may have been up to any number of things or none at all. Regardless I know I made the right decision.

January 30, 2013, 06:46 AM	#38
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	Maybe he was undercover LE and maybe he was just some odd duckling who really had no clue; either way you did the right thing. We've had a few undercovers snoop around the gun shops around here before, and they're generally much as you described the gentleman in your account. Dresses the part, tries hard to fit in and join in conversation, but it's always a little off. Generally, they're easy to spot if you are a local. Never seen one attempt to initiate a straw sale around here (far less likely to fly in a small LGS than in a Walmart), they usually stay around until a transaction takes place and then they're in the wind and you never see them again. Of course, I can't prove they were LE, but you sometimes just know. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

January 29, 2013, 07:28 AM	#27
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i thought a strawman buy was when a person bought a firearm for a person who is disabled from buying it himself and knowing it. if both are legaly able to buy or sell a firearm,does it fall under the strawman law? eastbank.

January 29, 2013, 10:13 AM	#28
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting. Nobody who is not wearing a tin foil hat would ever believe that this was a LE Sting. Even the most incompetent LEO in the USA would understand that this would be entrapment and that it would never stand in court. It would require the straw buyer to approach the "bystander" and freely ask for them to assist in a purchase, with that "bystander" being a LEO for it to be a good case. The chances of this occuring "freely" approaches zero. Media sting... probably not. Poorly socialized nutcase trying to be helpful? Most probably. "When I hear hooves behind me in Arizona, I think horses, not zebras" The simplest explainations are usually the right ones. Willie .

January 29, 2013, 10:32 AM	#30
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	"I have serious doubts on the validity of this story. I don't believe for a minute there was any LE sting." Like a previous poster said, maybe not a LEO sting for the buyer, but a set-up for the gun shop.

January 29, 2013, 01:37 PM	#31
godot Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2004 Posts: 105	While it could be a sting, it could also be an attempted theft. "give me the money & I'll buy it & meet you over in the food court in 15 minutes". Guy takes your money and leaves by another exit. Good luck calling the police and saying you were trying to make an illegal gun purchase and the person ran off with your money. The only thing that will net is a possible court date and an appearance on Americas Dumbest Criminals. Something like this was actually reported on News of The Weird. Someone bought some cocaine they found inferior and took it into a police station to complain they were ripped off and gave the LEO the sub par cocaine. In short you were right not to take his offer.

January 29, 2013, 03:40 PM	#34
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I find it conceivable that the guy could have had a hidden cameraman, and may have wanted to be the next Geraldo. Why worry about facts when you could get air time?

January 29, 2013, 11:19 PM	#37
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^ Absolutely. You did the right thing. it woild have been illegal to have done otherwise. It's very unlikely that he was a LEO of any sort. Media sting.. nutcase... who knows. Who cares? Willie .

February 1, 2013, 06:55 PM	#39
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	I believe the story but I doubt it was a sting. In any case the OP did the right thing by walking away. There are plenty of simple minded people in the gun culture who just want to help out. Coulda been one of those, or a scam of some sort. We'll never know.

February 1, 2013, 11:56 PM	#40
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	It doesn't have to be LE or even legit set up to make waves with it ala 20/20 or Geraldo type of crap. They could air it and legit or not it would make waves and cast a poor light on gunowners. You were right to listen to your spidey sense tingling and leave.

February 2, 2013, 02:36 AM	#41
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,834	I carry a voice recorder must of the time, so if I heard him say that, + it was recorded voically to back me up, couldn't you arrest him/citizen arrest/dial 911?

February 2, 2013, 06:12 AM	#44
therealdeal Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 627	not all gun enthusiasts know the laws/bills you mentioned It does not make sense in my opinion that this guy(no matter how gun literate or illiterate) would be willing to buy you a gun under his name, social security number, etc. That being said I can't speculate as to what happened andor why he was making this conversation. Maybe he was touting you: sizing you up for a ripoff. Some people are always on the look out for money as everyone knows if they are willing to commit robberies for drugs and so-on. Again pure speculation but if it was a LEO but not a sting(I am not convinced either), maybe you were off in some way? I don't mean you were off but maybe he was bitin that bait to see or confirm if you were. I don't know if you dress like a thug? I don't know if you are the opposite but look a little gruff? I don't know your age. I can say this would be profiling and not fair/legaL. You said your license wouldn't allow a sale...maybe he was gonna get you talking and then you know how that can go when a LEO lets a perp start talking and digging himself or herself in a hole which eventually leads him to being able to officially check you out, search you, etc. That isn't entrapment if he ends up talking to you and then gets you for something else, right....a warrant, something illegal in your pockets, etc. All I know is I can only think of a couple reasons why this man would be willing to offer to buy you a gun under his name/social security number. I mean is he looking for a lifelong "friend", someone he can befriend to later exploit, is he an LEO, is he a secret shooper, is he a reporter/journalist/anti gun activist? Either way you made the right decision(in my opinion) to immediately distance yourself from the situation. I do not believe it would have been a good idea to 'play' with this clown, and I donot think trying to "get the goods on this guy" would've been smart either. __________________ NRA Distinguished Life Member "Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)

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