Help! Colt SAA: Odd serial and inventory #s

96wa6 · October 17, 2012, 09:27 AM

This is my first post here; I hope I did it right.

I also hope an expert on this board can help me. My expertise is making 1911s shoot into little groups, not SAAs.

One of my customers is clearing out his safe, and this is the one that intrigues me most.

It is a Colt SAA, first gen., has LOTS of holster wear, and has been reblued some time in its life.

I have a Colt Archives letter on the gun, and it is still in its original form: 4-3/4", .32-20, shipped in 1905 to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Company (a hardware store in Chicago that was the forerunner of Ace/True Value), grips not noted.

What confuses me most is the serial number and added markings.

Butt.jpg

The first digit in the serial number is a "2" but has been obviously stamped over a "1". The “2” looks identical to the other “2” in the serial number, even under high magnification, although struck harder. A fellow from The Colt Archives called me when I asked for info on the both numbers. We both agreed that there is little reason for a manufacturer to re-stamp a gun with a new serial number other than at birth. I have a S&W target revolver that was sent back to the factory and rebuilt into a different model (from stock model 10 to a model 14 single-action-only match gun with target hammer and trigger) and in that case, the model number under the crane was overstamped to the proper model designation. But even in that case, the serial number wasn’t touched.

So the fellow at The Colt Archives said he believed that the “1” was a mistake at the factory that the factory corrected by overstamping with a “2” before shipping it, because The Colt Archives has it listed in their records as “2______” in the configuration I have it in.

Any of you seen a real SAA with overstamped serial numbers? If it can be confirmed that it is stamped with the factory dies, does that hurt the value at all? Add to it?

What markings would be on the cylinder to indicate original or otherwise?

I’ve been told the VP stamp on the trigger guard indicates smokeless proof (is that correct?), but what does the “5” at the back of the TG mean?

TGs.jpg

Second, and separate from the serial number, are the markings on it after it was purchased: “1G1”

Side.jpg

Anyone have any references or knowledge of what that marking came from or was for? I’m guessing it would be an armory or other inventory number, but not a police number because there’s no “_PD” anywhere on the gun.

It spent a LOT of time in a holster (the ejector rod housing is virtually rounded on the outside front edge, the barrel end is worn and there’s a tiny bit of pitting under some of the blue) and it’s been handled a LOT (the grips are almost completely smooth on both sides), but if the cylinder and barrel are original, it was almost never shot – the bore and chambers are gorgeous.

Bank guard? Shipping guard? Warehouse or stock-yard guards? Prison?

Lastly, can anyone recommend sources for info on inventory stampings like these?

PS: If you look at the serial # photo you’ll notice three nicely worn notches in the grip!

Best,

96wa6

Slamfire · October 17, 2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

The first digit in the serial number is a "2" but has been obviously stamped over a "1". The “2” looks identical to the other “2” in the serial number, even under high magnification, although struck harder.

I don't know how the serial numbers were punched. Based on the spacing I think numbers were loading into a fixture, I cannot imagine someone getting the numbers so even holding punches by hand.

If the numbers were loaded by hand into a fixture, and #1 is next to #2, it seems reasonable to me that maybe the wrong digit was grabbed and the employee then had to overstamp with the correct number.

Quote:

Second, and separate from the serial number, are the markings on it after it was purchased: “1G1”

Probably a rack number. A local gunstore surplused a lot of Police turn in revolvers and these guns had all sorts of crudely stamped rack numbers. Typically these are on the flat part of the receiver. Seldom does the rack number provide useful ownership information.

Could be law enforcement or any company that provided armed security.

Colt is clueless about the Rack Numbers they stamped. I bought two Police trade in Detective Specials and wanted to find out what P I P P meant. These were Colt factory stamped letters, and they are on the butt, not the sideplate. I got Colt factory letters but Colt did not know what PIPP meant.

Took some sleuthing, but I figured out that PIPP stood for Palisades Interstate Parkway Police.

The great guys at PIPP told me the chromed DS was carried by Chief Phieffer.

96wa6 · October 17, 2012, 09:55 AM

Very cool info. Thanks.

The rack numbers on this SAA are stamped in the frame and under the barrel next to the receiver.

96wa6 · October 17, 2012, 09:57 AM

Can anyone tell me why my photos don't show up in the post like Slamfire's?

Slamfire · October 17, 2012, 02:49 PM

As for photos, I established a free account at Photobucket and posted pictures there.

Then I went to my account and copied and pasted the IMG link, into the message.

rclark · October 17, 2012, 05:13 PM

Edit your post and put your image location url (http://imageloc/kj.jpg) into a {IMG} <url> {/IMG} (replace {} with []) tags. Photobucket has an easy drop down list off that you copy to clipboard and then paste (<cntl><v>) into your post.

Dfariswheel · October 17, 2012, 06:07 PM

The "VP" in a triangle is the standard Colt "Verified Proof" mark for smokeless powder guns.
The "5" on the trigger guard web is a Colt factory inspectors stamp.
The "VP" and a number code for a Colt inspector has continued right up to today on all Colt pistols.

As above, the "1G1" could mean anything. It could be for a police department, company guard, mine guard, Hollywood prop stamp, or someone for some unknown reason just decided to add the stamp, etc.

I've never heard of any data base of private stampings, because so many old gun have stamps and most are unknown as to the meaning.
You can figure out some of them, but most of them could mean anything.
No one I've heard of has attempted to start a data base.

October 17, 2012, 02:49 PM	#5
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	As for photos, I established a free account at Photobucket and posted pictures there. Then I went to my account and copied and pasted the IMG link, into the message. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

October 17, 2012, 05:13 PM	#6
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,619	Edit your post and put your image location url (http://imageloc/kj.jpg) into a {IMG} <url> {/IMG} (replace {} with []) tags. Photobucket has an easy drop down list off that you copy to clipboard and then paste (<cntl><v>) into your post. __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king.

October 17, 2012, 09:27 AM	#1
96wa6 Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2012 Posts: 3	Help! Colt SAA: Odd serial and inventory #s This is my first post here; I hope I did it right. I also hope an expert on this board can help me. My expertise is making 1911s shoot into little groups, not SAAs. One of my customers is clearing out his safe, and this is the one that intrigues me most. It is a Colt SAA, first gen., has LOTS of holster wear, and has been reblued some time in its life. I have a Colt Archives letter on the gun, and it is still in its original form: 4-3/4", .32-20, shipped in 1905 to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Company (a hardware store in Chicago that was the forerunner of Ace/True Value), grips not noted. What confuses me most is the serial number and added markings. Butt.jpg The first digit in the serial number is a "2" but has been obviously stamped over a "1". The “2” looks identical to the other “2” in the serial number, even under high magnification, although struck harder. A fellow from The Colt Archives called me when I asked for info on the both numbers. We both agreed that there is little reason for a manufacturer to re-stamp a gun with a new serial number other than at birth. I have a S&W target revolver that was sent back to the factory and rebuilt into a different model (from stock model 10 to a model 14 single-action-only match gun with target hammer and trigger) and in that case, the model number under the crane was overstamped to the proper model designation. But even in that case, the serial number wasn’t touched. So the fellow at The Colt Archives said he believed that the “1” was a mistake at the factory that the factory corrected by overstamping with a “2” before shipping it, because The Colt Archives has it listed in their records as “2______” in the configuration I have it in. Any of you seen a real SAA with overstamped serial numbers? If it can be confirmed that it is stamped with the factory dies, does that hurt the value at all? Add to it? What markings would be on the cylinder to indicate original or otherwise? I’ve been told the VP stamp on the trigger guard indicates smokeless proof (is that correct?), but what does the “5” at the back of the TG mean? TGs.jpg Second, and separate from the serial number, are the markings on it after it was purchased: “1G1” Side.jpg Anyone have any references or knowledge of what that marking came from or was for? I’m guessing it would be an armory or other inventory number, but not a police number because there’s no “_PD” anywhere on the gun. It spent a LOT of time in a holster (the ejector rod housing is virtually rounded on the outside front edge, the barrel end is worn and there’s a tiny bit of pitting under some of the blue) and it’s been handled a LOT (the grips are almost completely smooth on both sides), but if the cylinder and barrel are original, it was almost never shot – the bore and chambers are gorgeous. Bank guard? Shipping guard? Warehouse or stock-yard guards? Prison? Lastly, can anyone recommend sources for info on inventory stampings like these? PS: If you look at the serial # photo you’ll notice three nicely worn notches in the grip! Best, 96wa6

October 17, 2012, 09:57 AM	#4
96wa6 Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2012 Posts: 3	Can anyone tell me why my photos don't show up in the post like Slamfire's?

October 17, 2012, 06:07 PM	#7
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The "VP" in a triangle is the standard Colt "Verified Proof" mark for smokeless powder guns. The "5" on the trigger guard web is a Colt factory inspectors stamp. The "VP" and a number code for a Colt inspector has continued right up to today on all Colt pistols. As above, the "1G1" could mean anything. It could be for a police department, company guard, mine guard, Hollywood prop stamp, or someone for some unknown reason just decided to add the stamp, etc. I've never heard of any data base of private stampings, because so many old gun have stamps and most are unknown as to the meaning. You can figure out some of them, but most of them could mean anything. No one I've heard of has attempted to start a data base.