Shotguns Outdated?

Socrates3000 · April 9, 2006, 07:32 PM

How many of you out there believe that the shotgun is outdated for protection and that a carbine like a CAR-15, mini-14, Hk-93, etc., or a submachine gun like mp5 can do everything that a shotgun can do and better?

How many of you believe that there are some things a shotgun can do that other guns can't do for protection?

Not trying to start a flame war. I just want to hear the rational behind opposing views.

Captain Bligh · April 9, 2006, 07:39 PM

Different tools for different jobs. Used in the right application, one is neither better nor worse than the other.

Dave McC · April 9, 2006, 07:49 PM

The Search Feature is your friend....

johnbt · April 9, 2006, 08:02 PM

There's a 60+ post thread on GlockTalk on this very subject. Search terms "shotguns outdated" will get you there.

John

jhgreasemonkey · April 10, 2006, 01:46 PM

I'd rather use a good 12 guage pump loaded with buckshot for close quarters. But its all about what kind of situation you might be facing. I dont think shotguns are outdated. I guess personal preference.

FirstFreedom · April 10, 2006, 03:39 PM

No way, Jose!

There most certainly IS something the shotgun can do that the others you mention cannot do - like throw twelve .30 caliber pellets at your attacker at the same time. Nothing, but nothing from a small arm equals the devastating stopping power against a human violent aggressor of a shotgun, on a per-shot basis. Sometimes, you only have 1 shot to achieve incapacitation before you're dead, so you'd better make that one shot count. Gimme a 12 ga anyday for producing 'rapid incapacitation'. In that example (00 buck), you multiply your chance of hitting CNS times 12, and multiply blood loss / wound channels times twelve. CNS hits and blood loss is what leads to incapacitation. Incapacitation is what stops an attack.

Not to mention make it 100 times easier to hit flying/moving game over said MP5 or AR15.

mathman · April 10, 2006, 03:46 PM

For inside the house, I'll take a shotgun...

For outside, I'll take a SOCOM 16...

In the vehicle...a 1911...

...different tools for different applications...my friend...

oletymer · April 10, 2006, 03:50 PM

Quit worrying and move out of the "Hood".

hippo · April 10, 2006, 05:44 PM

Well, I suppose that with the introduction of different firearms and capabilities over the years and then, like so many have replied here to your bacic question, it depends on the situation (job) at hand. I can think of a situation in which an old Derringer 2 x barrel would be better than a shotgun - but I try not to spend too much time on this type of thought. In home protection cases there are times when a bar of soap tucked neatley in a dirty sock and delivered to an intruders brian housing group with force and accuracy is not only quicker, and more readily availabe, but is safer to other occupants as well. Won't disturb the neighbors either. They like that.

Mannlicher · April 10, 2006, 06:51 PM

for defending the casa, I like a rifle. Either one of my .30 M1 Carbines or the Bushmaster shorty.
I don't think shotties are outdated at all, but I prefer a rifle.

Hotbarrel · April 11, 2006, 01:24 AM

Ask any cop or Moe on "The Simpsons." They'll tell you nothing is more persuasive than that "Ch-CHUK!" of a pump being racked.

You ever see that police video of the two cops pulling over two fugitive brothers? Everybody is less than 3 feet from each other. Everybody unholsters and empties their guns at each other. Everybody misses. Everybody jumps back into their vehicles and the chase resumes.

That would never happen with shotguns!

Death from Afar · April 11, 2006, 03:26 AM

And, also , shotguns are simple the most versitile gun there is . I love em. As the dude at gunsite said; " I like my pistol, but I love my shotgun".

OBIWAN · April 11, 2006, 11:35 AM

I am one that thinks a good carbine all but replaces the shotgun for defense

They are a niche weapon...not obsolete...but they have a much narrower engagement range.

At very close range (HD)there is little/no spread to the pellets

Yes...they are devestating at that range....but so is a carbine

At medium ranges, the patterning helps with hitting your target, but we are not shooting birds here....with a good carbine I can easily get head shots at 50 yds...I don't need a "pattern"

At longer ranges, the spread now becomes a hazard to those other than the target.

ATW525 · April 11, 2006, 03:30 PM

I reckon the typical smoothbore shotgun has an effective range of 25 yards with shot, and about double that with a slug.
I can't come up with many realistic scenarios where I'd be legally justified in shooting another human being beyond that range.
Within that range, if I only had a chance to get one shot off, I would prefer to send a load of shot or a good heavy slug in the bad guys direction, rather a single bullet from a carbine.
Should I miss, the round from the carbine is going to potentially travel alot further than even a slug from the shotgun, increasing the chance of unfortunate consequences.

So, in my opinion the shotgun is the superior weapon for defensive purposes. War fighting is a different story, of course.

johnbt · April 11, 2006, 04:14 PM

"At longer ranges, the spread now becomes a hazard to those other than the target."

Hitting a pie plate at 100 or 125 yards or so shouldn't be a problem using slugs. Forgot about the slugs, didn't you?

John

Death from Afar · April 11, 2006, 06:07 PM

And of course pellets run out of steam far sooner than bullets so in an urban situation are a much wiser choice.

OneInTheChamber · April 11, 2006, 08:15 PM

HD: Shotgun territory. The shotgun owns it. Nothing else within 30 feet will deliver as much punch. So what it only spreads 2''. 9/12/30 (whatever your loaded with) is better than a single .223.

SHTF: Firmly belongs to the carbines. Carbines can be excellent room clearing tools; but for CIVILIAN use, the shotgun still owns this. Carbines are excellent for all reasonable ranges; have the capacity most shotguns do not, and can be easily outfitted with all the rage of gadgits.

The shotgun is a speciality tool in my opinion. But man, it is good at what it does.

I understand slugs can hit pie plates at 100's of yards too; but if your loading a shotgun with slugs; just use a carbine instead. The shotguns advantage lies in mulitple projectiles causing multiple wounds.

DWARREN123 · April 11, 2006, 08:29 PM

Never, all firearms have a place.

OBIWAN · April 11, 2006, 10:16 PM

I most certainly did not forget about slugs

I didn't say what a shotgun couldn't do(try to remember that).....merely that there was not much it did better than a carbine

You keep pointing out things you can with it do to be as good as a carbine

So ....I can either practice with my carbine

Or practice with both weapons in case some day....some how...I am in a situation within those narrow boundaries where a shotgun functions adequately

Rules HD???

30 ft is a big room in any home....and most shotguns will deliver all the shot and the wad through one ragged hole

Devastating...yes...better than a single round from a carbine...not so much

There was a test tdone and 55gr 5.56x45 rounds were less likely to go through sheetrock/lumber walls than most handgun rounds and all shotgun rounds

The shotgun is not "done"....but it's major claim to fame is that people still cling to the notion that it is some kind of magical weapon that destroys everything in front of it.

I know I used to ...and now everytime someone says how awesome a shottie is for defense I just smile and ask them the same question......

Why......and they trot out the same tired platitudes that we see every time this comes up. None of them are exactly false...but they aren't true just because we have always said them either

I eventually realized that a carbine is VERY effective from contact distance to 300 yds.

And despite being real good with my shotgun....I am much better with my carbine

I can chew the head off the target at 50 -100yds..if I want to...or I can make a ragged hole in the middle of it

I can get consistent hits on an ipsc target at 300 yds

I can carry 28 rounds of carbine ammo in my back pocket

(please don't start doing the math with pellet counts or I will ask you to shoot 28 bad guys spaced at 10 ft intervals

)

I am not trying to convince everyone to pitch their scatterguns......

Just asking people to think

It would probably be easier to get them to ditch the scatterguns

Simply ask yourself this....

If you had to hit a 3 inch circle at 50 yds.....life depended on it....which would you choose????

Ok...so exactly why would you choose the less precise weapon

loosecannon · April 11, 2006, 10:50 PM

Are you going to shoot dove with your Uzi?

ATW525 · April 11, 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

If you had to hit a 3 inch circle at 50 yds.....life depended on it....which would you choose????

I would choose a carbine of course. After all, they both have thier place.

Shotgun=Home defense
Carbine=Shooting little circles half a football field or more away because my life somehow depends on it

mjolnir · April 11, 2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Are you going to shoot dove with your Uzi?

Probably hit more that way.

johnbt · April 12, 2006, 08:02 AM

"Just asking people to think"

A lot of us have, and come to different conclusions than yours.

Using a slug to punch through a wall or car door is an additional advantage to the multiple-pellet-theory stuff.

John

BIGRED · April 12, 2006, 10:39 AM

Some of u guys are getting of topic. The topic is "PROTECTION". this is in reference to you or loved ones, not IRAQ insurgants. to Protect yourself you would either need to be in a building, car, or outside (CCW) and the distance for a target to threaten you would be within 50 feet at most. which = 16.6 yards. It is a no brainer that for home protection a shotgun with Buckshot is the optimum load. now if you at the city park or in your vehicle and someone threatens you they will be within 10-20 feet. you will use your HANDGUN. if you are in IRAQ and someone has a rifle pointed at u from the next building over, yes the rifle is a better choice.

sounds like some of you realllllly love your carbines too much to understand their purpose.

prater · April 12, 2006, 11:13 AM

I personally would only use one of my rifles inside my home as a last resort. Rifle ammo will travel much farther than shotgun ammo at extremely close range such as in a room of a house, and there is always a possibility the roudn will go through the BG and through a few walls and be a danger to an innocent bystander in the surrounding area. I just don't want to take the chance. If my 00 Buck or my 40. Hollow points won't stop em or aren't in easy access then yes I would consider grabbing my Mini 14 or my SKS (god forbid it ever comes to that) but for close quarters I really think shotguns are an extremely effective weapon. They are versatile enough that they can fire the equal to 15 rounds of 30 cal, or a slug with devestating capabilities or in certain situations less than lethal rounds such as bean bags and rubber slugs. And if all else fails the stock makes a pretty good club. So no IMO the shotgun is not outdated.

April 9, 2006, 07:32 PM	#1
Socrates3000 Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 25	Shotguns Outdated? How many of you out there believe that the shotgun is outdated for protection and that a carbine like a CAR-15, mini-14, Hk-93, etc., or a submachine gun like mp5 can do everything that a shotgun can do and better? How many of you believe that there are some things a shotgun can do that other guns can't do for protection? Not trying to start a flame war. I just want to hear the rational behind opposing views.

April 10, 2006, 03:39 PM	#6
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	shotgun outdated? No way, Jose! There most certainly IS something the shotgun can do that the others you mention cannot do - like throw twelve .30 caliber pellets at your attacker at the same time. Nothing, but nothing from a small arm equals the devastating stopping power against a human violent aggressor of a shotgun, on a per-shot basis. Sometimes, you only have 1 shot to achieve incapacitation before you're dead, so you'd better make that one shot count. Gimme a 12 ga anyday for producing 'rapid incapacitation'. In that example (00 buck), you multiply your chance of hitting CNS times 12, and multiply blood loss / wound channels times twelve. CNS hits and blood loss is what leads to incapacitation. Incapacitation is what stops an attack. Not to mention make it 100 times easier to hit flying/moving game over said MP5 or AR15.

April 10, 2006, 03:46 PM	#7
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	For inside the house, I'll take a shotgun... For outside, I'll take a SOCOM 16... In the vehicle...a 1911... ...different tools for different applications...my friend... __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

April 10, 2006, 06:51 PM	#10
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	for defending the casa, I like a rifle. Either one of my .30 M1 Carbines or the Bushmaster shorty. I don't think shotties are outdated at all, but I prefer a rifle. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

April 11, 2006, 01:24 AM	#11
Hotbarrel Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2004 Location: Sacracalifas Posts: 122	Ask any cop or Moe on "The Simpsons." They'll tell you nothing is more persuasive than that "Ch-CHUK!" of a pump being racked. You ever see that police video of the two cops pulling over two fugitive brothers? Everybody is less than 3 feet from each other. Everybody unholsters and empties their guns at each other. Everybody misses. Everybody jumps back into their vehicles and the chase resumes. That would never happen with shotguns! __________________ VT VENIANT OMNES -"Let them all come!"

April 9, 2006, 07:39 PM	#2
Captain Bligh Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2000 Posts: 453	Different tools for different jobs. Used in the right application, one is neither better nor worse than the other.

April 9, 2006, 07:49 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	The Search Feature is your friend....

April 9, 2006, 08:02 PM	#4
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	There's a 60+ post thread on GlockTalk on this very subject. Search terms "shotguns outdated" will get you there. John

April 10, 2006, 01:46 PM	#5
jhgreasemonkey Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 2,238	I'd rather use a good 12 guage pump loaded with buckshot for close quarters. But its all about what kind of situation you might be facing. I dont think shotguns are outdated. I guess personal preference.

April 10, 2006, 03:50 PM	#8
oletymer Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 338	Quit worrying and move out of the "Hood".

April 10, 2006, 05:44 PM	#9
hippo Member Join Date: February 18, 2006 Location: PA Posts: 29	Well, I suppose that with the introduction of different firearms and capabilities over the years and then, like so many have replied here to your bacic question, it depends on the situation (job) at hand. I can think of a situation in which an old Derringer 2 x barrel would be better than a shotgun - but I try not to spend too much time on this type of thought. In home protection cases there are times when a bar of soap tucked neatley in a dirty sock and delivered to an intruders brian housing group with force and accuracy is not only quicker, and more readily availabe, but is safer to other occupants as well. Won't disturb the neighbors either. They like that.

April 11, 2006, 03:26 AM	#12
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	And, also , shotguns are simple the most versitile gun there is . I love em. As the dude at gunsite said; " I like my pistol, but I love my shotgun". __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

April 11, 2006, 11:35 AM	#13
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I am one that thinks a good carbine all but replaces the shotgun for defense They are a niche weapon...not obsolete...but they have a much narrower engagement range. At very close range (HD)there is little/no spread to the pellets Yes...they are devestating at that range....but so is a carbine At medium ranges, the patterning helps with hitting your target, but we are not shooting birds here....with a good carbine I can easily get head shots at 50 yds...I don't need a "pattern" At longer ranges, the spread now becomes a hazard to those other than the target.

April 11, 2006, 03:30 PM	#14
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	I reckon the typical smoothbore shotgun has an effective range of 25 yards with shot, and about double that with a slug. I can't come up with many realistic scenarios where I'd be legally justified in shooting another human being beyond that range. Within that range, if I only had a chance to get one shot off, I would prefer to send a load of shot or a good heavy slug in the bad guys direction, rather a single bullet from a carbine. Should I miss, the round from the carbine is going to potentially travel alot further than even a slug from the shotgun, increasing the chance of unfortunate consequences. So, in my opinion the shotgun is the superior weapon for defensive purposes. War fighting is a different story, of course.

April 11, 2006, 04:14 PM	#15
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"At longer ranges, the spread now becomes a hazard to those other than the target." Hitting a pie plate at 100 or 125 yards or so shouldn't be a problem using slugs. Forgot about the slugs, didn't you? John

April 11, 2006, 06:07 PM	#16
Death from Afar Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Living the dream in Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND Posts: 1,635	And of course pellets run out of steam far sooner than bullets so in an urban situation are a much wiser choice. __________________ "Beware of the Man with one gun...he probably isnt into guns enough to be safe with it".

April 11, 2006, 08:15 PM	#17
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	HD: Shotgun territory. The shotgun owns it. Nothing else within 30 feet will deliver as much punch. So what it only spreads 2''. 9/12/30 (whatever your loaded with) is better than a single .223. SHTF: Firmly belongs to the carbines. Carbines can be excellent room clearing tools; but for CIVILIAN use, the shotgun still owns this. Carbines are excellent for all reasonable ranges; have the capacity most shotguns do not, and can be easily outfitted with all the rage of gadgits. The shotgun is a speciality tool in my opinion. But man, it is good at what it does. I understand slugs can hit pie plates at 100's of yards too; but if your loading a shotgun with slugs; just use a carbine instead. The shotguns advantage lies in mulitple projectiles causing multiple wounds. __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

April 11, 2006, 08:29 PM	#18
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Never, all firearms have a place.

April 11, 2006, 10:16 PM	#19
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	I most certainly did not forget about slugs I didn't say what a shotgun couldn't do(try to remember that).....merely that there was not much it did better than a carbine You keep pointing out things you can with it do to be as good as a carbine So ....I can either practice with my carbine Or practice with both weapons in case some day....some how...I am in a situation within those narrow boundaries where a shotgun functions adequately Rules HD??? 30 ft is a big room in any home....and most shotguns will deliver all the shot and the wad through one ragged hole Devastating...yes...better than a single round from a carbine...not so much There was a test tdone and 55gr 5.56x45 rounds were less likely to go through sheetrock/lumber walls than most handgun rounds and all shotgun rounds The shotgun is not "done"....but it's major claim to fame is that people still cling to the notion that it is some kind of magical weapon that destroys everything in front of it. I know I used to ...and now everytime someone says how awesome a shottie is for defense I just smile and ask them the same question...... Why......and they trot out the same tired platitudes that we see every time this comes up. None of them are exactly false...but they aren't true just because we have always said them either I eventually realized that a carbine is VERY effective from contact distance to 300 yds. And despite being real good with my shotgun....I am much better with my carbine I can chew the head off the target at 50 -100yds..if I want to...or I can make a ragged hole in the middle of it I can get consistent hits on an ipsc target at 300 yds I can carry 28 rounds of carbine ammo in my back pocket (please don't start doing the math with pellet counts or I will ask you to shoot 28 bad guys spaced at 10 ft intervals ) I am not trying to convince everyone to pitch their scatterguns...... Just asking people to think It would probably be easier to get them to ditch the scatterguns Simply ask yourself this.... If you had to hit a 3 inch circle at 50 yds.....life depended on it....which would you choose???? Ok...so exactly why would you choose the less precise weapon

April 11, 2006, 10:50 PM	#20
loosecannon Junior member Join Date: January 6, 2006 Posts: 168	Are you going to shoot dove with your Uzi?

April 12, 2006, 08:02 AM	#23
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"Just asking people to think" A lot of us have, and come to different conclusions than yours. Using a slug to punch through a wall or car door is an additional advantage to the multiple-pellet-theory stuff. John

April 12, 2006, 10:39 AM	#24
BIGRED Member Join Date: March 23, 2006 Location: FLORIDA Posts: 42	Some of u guys are getting of topic. The topic is "PROTECTION". this is in reference to you or loved ones, not IRAQ insurgants. to Protect yourself you would either need to be in a building, car, or outside (CCW) and the distance for a target to threaten you would be within 50 feet at most. which = 16.6 yards. It is a no brainer that for home protection a shotgun with Buckshot is the optimum load. now if you at the city park or in your vehicle and someone threatens you they will be within 10-20 feet. you will use your HANDGUN. if you are in IRAQ and someone has a rifle pointed at u from the next building over, yes the rifle is a better choice. sounds like some of you realllllly love your carbines too much to understand their purpose.

April 12, 2006, 11:13 AM	#25
prater Member Join Date: March 28, 2006 Posts: 77	I personally would only use one of my rifles inside my home as a last resort. Rifle ammo will travel much farther than shotgun ammo at extremely close range such as in a room of a house, and there is always a possibility the roudn will go through the BG and through a few walls and be a danger to an innocent bystander in the surrounding area. I just don't want to take the chance. If my 00 Buck or my 40. Hollow points won't stop em or aren't in easy access then yes I would consider grabbing my Mini 14 or my SKS (god forbid it ever comes to that) but for close quarters I really think shotguns are an extremely effective weapon. They are versatile enough that they can fire the equal to 15 rounds of 30 cal, or a slug with devestating capabilities or in certain situations less than lethal rounds such as bean bags and rubber slugs. And if all else fails the stock makes a pretty good club. So no IMO the shotgun is not outdated.