June 21, 2012, 12:29 AM | #2301 | |
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Here is what he said in 2007 about executive privilege: VIDEO LINK
Quote:
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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June 21, 2012, 07:43 AM | #2302 |
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Apparently the big administration talking point for the media today is that Holder provided 7600 documents (out of 140,000 documents that DOJ claims to have reviewed) and has testified nine times.
Having listened to every one of those nine testimonies by AG Holder, it drives me crazy that a year later and after the ninth testimony, the Attorney General still cannot say who was responsible for the misleading letter to Congress and who in DOJ knew about Fast and Furious. It isn't like those are unfair questions; but I've yet to see anyone point out that the AG has testified 9 times without being able to answer basic questions about a massive scandal in his Department. |
June 21, 2012, 09:00 AM | #2303 |
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In 2009, President Obama and Attorney General Holder were apparently well aware of the various projects involving gun walking. Here is a link to a video showing DHS and DOJ officials indicating highest level involvement.
http://www.therightscoop.com/bombshe...lking-in-2009/ |
June 21, 2012, 10:44 AM | #2304 |
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^ That's a great video.
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June 21, 2012, 11:22 AM | #2305 |
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Surprisingly, while denouncing the GOP - the NY Times seems to think there is no reason not to release what is asked for - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/op...san-fight.html - with some face saving negotiations. Both sides playing politics - what else is new.
It's always the coverup.
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June 21, 2012, 11:26 AM | #2306 |
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One member of Issa's committee is willing to investigate Gunwalker and Wide Receiver as well as F&F. See Anderson Cooper interview with US Rep. Gowdy:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/2...vilege-absurd/ |
June 21, 2012, 03:36 PM | #2307 |
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Point of fact, GWB did not burn Valerie Plame. Colin Powell's exec, Richard Armitage did so, and told Colin. Colin later denied to Bush he knew anything about who "outed" Plame, covering for Armitage and aiding the hunt which could only score Scooter Libby on (very likely) a memory lapse.
Off point in this discussion, but facts are troublesome things... Thanks for the clarification, Aquila, sorry for my confusion.
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June 21, 2012, 05:52 PM | #2308 |
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See Anderson Cooper 360 interview with congressman Gowdy:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/2...rd/?hpt=ac_bn5 |
June 21, 2012, 06:26 PM | #2309 |
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Bartholomew Roberts closed with the following:
Having listened to every one of those nine testimonies by AG Holder, it drives me crazy that a year later and after the ninth testimony, the Attorney General still cannot say who was responsible for the misleading letter to Congress and who in DOJ knew about Fast and Furious. It isn't like those are unfair questions; but I've yet to see anyone point out that the AG has testified 9 times without being able to answer basic questions about a massive scandal in his Department. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Seems to me that there is a difference, a large difference between questions that Mr. Holder is able to answer, and questions that he is willing to answer. Of course, given that he likely expected the political cover he is getting from the president, who has invoked Executive Privilege goes a long way to explain his "reticence" |
June 21, 2012, 10:51 PM | #2310 | |
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June 22, 2012, 12:12 AM | #2311 |
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I'm still waiting for a congressperson -- ANY congressperson -- to tell Holder that he is the head of a department of the United States government which committed an act of war against a foreign sovereign state and ask him what he thinks of that and if he know the punishment for that crime.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
June 22, 2012, 04:44 AM | #2312 | |
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June 22, 2012, 06:47 PM | #2313 |
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If they were worried about documents which could affect any internal investigations being conducted by the Inspector General, I'm guessing there is some method in the government, congress, committee's etc, to allow the committee members to see the documents without releasing them to the public. Also, Carney is out there saying that ALL the documents RELATING to the operation itself are in the 7600 released to the congressional oversight committee. But, BUT, the amount of redaction in some of those make them to be unreadable and of very little valuable information. Also, if those documents are all there is, why don't we know who came up with the program, who decided to go forward with the program, and who gave the orders to the BATFE agents to commence with the program? Those are the people who need to be held responsible. I think one of the key guys is over in Iraq until after the elections.
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June 22, 2012, 07:03 PM | #2314 |
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People are reading way to much into this. It was a bone headed operation by the ATF. It was started during 43s administration. Not the first time or the last time a federal le organization has done something bone headed. The current administration wants nothing to do with gun control they have much bigger fish to fry.
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June 22, 2012, 07:21 PM | #2315 | ||
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June 22, 2012, 07:22 PM | #2316 | |
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The Phoenix field division of the BATFE devised operation Fast and Furious. See the 3 May, 2012 memorandum Issa sent to his committee. See page 4. Underlining mine.
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7...ment-FINAL.pdf Quote:
Last edited by thallub; June 22, 2012 at 07:35 PM. |
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June 22, 2012, 07:29 PM | #2317 |
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Jason_iowa, Fast and Furious was started in 2009, during this Administration. You appear to be confusing it with Wide Receiver, which took place under the Bush Administration. The differences are that Wide Receiver attempted to track and surveil the weapons, coordinated with Mexican law enforcement, and was shut down when it lost around 250 of some 400 rifles. It was apparently such a disaster that the U. S. Attorney at the time declined to prosecute.
If you believe the testimony of Lanny Breuer, he and Jacob Weinstein flew out to Phoenix to warn the ATF against engaging in such tactics - yet right after that meeting, Fast and Furious began - except without tracking or coordination with Mexico. And then a year later we have Weinstein's handwritten notes indicating an awareness of walked guns and with the words "Fast and Furious" written on them. Yet according to Breuer, he had no idea these tactics were still being used - in fact it never even occurred to him to think that, even after news reports began. Apparently, he didn't notice it on the seven wiretap applications he signed which indicated gunwalking was taking place. That tends to argue against just ATF boneheadedness - not to mention the sudden unavailability of Kevin O'Reilly, Patrick Cunningham taking the Fifth, Dennis Burke resigning, etc. I know this is a long thread; but there is plenty of evidence to challenge your assertion in it. |
June 22, 2012, 07:30 PM | #2318 |
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A couple of corrections in the above remarks by Jason.
Project Gunrunner was indeed started under the Bush administration. Operation Fast and Furious was started by the current administration. Operation Wide Receiver was a Bush admin program, but it was markedly different in several crucial ways. Wide Receiver failed and was killed as soon as the PTB were notified that some 200 guns had "walked." Fast & Furious was killed only after Agent Terry was murdered and the news became public. And that, after some 2000+ guns were deliberately "walked." Hardly the same. ETA: Make that; Aguila Blanca, thallub and Bart posted as I edited and posted while also having a conversation with Krucam at MDShooters! Gotta quit trying to multitask - I only have 1 processor!!! |
June 22, 2012, 07:45 PM | #2319 | ||
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I think Jason is quoting Wikipedia or some other such source. Really he should check these things better.
Quote:
Then they try to pin it all on Newell: Quote:
Wikipedia: misinforming the masses since 2001 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
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June 22, 2012, 07:50 PM | #2320 | |
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June 22, 2012, 08:00 PM | #2321 |
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^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia
Jacob Weinstein and Lanny Breuer knew that Operation Wide Receiver was a failure. So OK, lets say that the people who conceived Operation Wide Receiver were incompetent and stupid. What does it say about BATFE and DOJ under the Obama administration that they took a tactic that was a proven failure and repeated it? That's more than stupid, it inexplicable and reckless. They must have known that walking guns again wouldn't nab any cartel kingpins, their arms dealers or their mules. For building a case against the cartels - the operation was useless. But one thing a repeat of the operation could do is put a lot of guns into the hands of the cartels, guns that could be tracked back to U.S. gunshops. A repeat of Wide Receiver could be pivitol in swaying public opinion and be a lynchpin in the argument that America needed stricter gun laws. |
June 22, 2012, 08:29 PM | #2322 | |
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Quote:
http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...ment-FINAL.pdf Last edited by thallub; June 23, 2012 at 06:06 AM. |
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June 23, 2012, 04:42 PM | #2323 |
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jimpeel wrote in post 2311:
I'm still waiting for a congressperson -- ANY congressperson -- to tell Holder that he is the head of a department of the United States government which committed an act of war against a foreign sovereign state and ask him what he thinks of that and if he know the punishment for that crime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless you happen to look very good in blue, don't hold your breath waiting, and this observation, I submit, applies with equal force to congressmen/women from either side of the aisle. Executive Privilege likely applies to the answer. |
June 23, 2012, 07:12 PM | #2324 | |
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Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
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June 23, 2012, 07:15 PM | #2325 |
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When General Motors was in financial trouble, President Obama effectively FIRED the CEO, Rick Waggoner saying that the buck stops at the top. Since the DOJ has been a consummate failure in the operation known as Fast and Furious, shouldn't the buck stop at the top?
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atf , fast and furious |
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