Need advice on a SA Revolver for CAS.

BoneDigger · March 3, 2006, 05:04 PM

I am thinking of getting into Cowboy Action Shooting. However, I do not presently own a SA revolver. I have the funds to purchase a revolver, but I have read so many good vs bad threads that I'm now dizzy. So, please answer the following questions so I can go buy a gun. I have an option toi buy a Vaquero (not new model) in SS, with holster for $400, if he still has it when I get back from this trip out of town. I also can buy a new gun. I could get an Uberti, Beretta, Taurus, Ruger, or Cimarron. So...

1) Which SA clone is the best for CAS? I cannot afford a Freedom Arms or Colt, so maybe one of the ones I mentioned?

2) I like authenticity, so I am shying away from the Ruger Vaquero, but I have also heard good things about these.

3) What length of barrel is best for CAS and is it useable as a "woods" weapon as well?

4) What caliber is best? I like authenticity, but I also need to be able to afford bullets. I like .45, but am open to suggestions.

I have money in hand and just waiting to get replies before heading to the gun shop. Yes, I have done searches on both the web and this site, and that's why I am so confused. Can anybody spend my money for me...

Todd in TX

Jim Watson · March 3, 2006, 05:48 PM

Colt is not worth the extra money strictly as a shooter. I have one real Colt because it was available in trade for a gun I was not using, and one Cimarron clone.

Rugers are big, strong, and well supported by the company and gunsmiths. They don't FEEL like a Colt, though.

All the others are mass produced Colt clones and mutants. USFA has a good reputation and is intermediate in price between Colt and copies. You will find somebody happy with any, unhappy with any given brand. Go to some shoots, folks will let you try stuff out.

A "woods weapon"? Against what threat? If for varmints, two and four legged, about any of the usual calibres and models will do. If for serious hunting of deer or larger, or for bear protection, it should be a .44 Magnum or overloaded .45, which means Ruger Old Vaquero or Blackhawk (to be shot in Modern Category with adjustable sights.)

Any standard barrel length will do. The speed merchants use the shorter guns, the traditionalists use the long ones. Even a 4 3/4" SA is longer than most current service and defense revolvers, if you use if for a carry weapon.

Bear in mind that unless your club offers the Working Cowboy division (not common) you will eventually need TWO sixguns to compete. You can borrow for a while but sooner or later... Also a pistol caliber lever or pump action rifle and a shotgun, double or Win 97 pump. And clothes. It is not a cheap sport.

Go to www.sassnet.com and read the rules and visit the forum for lots of information.

Father Knows Best · March 3, 2006, 06:40 PM

The Ruger "New Vaquero" models look and feel a lot more "authentic" than the standard "Vaqueros." They are smaller and lighter, with Colt-size grip frames. Rugers in general are the almost universal choice of real "competitors" in the cowboy action game, as the Ruger design is very robust and reliable. There are also lots of aftermarket parts available.

The best competition gun is probably the Ruger New Vaquero in .357 magnum with a 4-3/4" barrel. You shoot light "cowboy" .38 special loads out of it. It would make a decent woods gun, as it can handle hot .357 magnum loads.

The New Vaquero is also available in .45 Colt, but ammo will be more expensive and the heavier bullets will recoil more, making you a little bit slower in all likelihood. Also, the "New Vaquero" in .45 Colt will not handle hot "Ruger only" loads. If you want to shoot the 300 grain hunting type .45 Colt loads, you need to stick with a Blackhawk or old model Vaquero, which has a larger and beefier frame and cylinder.

If you insist on something more "authentic", you probably have to rule out the Taurus Gaucho and Beretta Stampede along with the Rugers, because like the Rugers, they use transfer bar safety systems. That leaves some Italian replicas, Colts and USFA. Colts are very expensive, and USFA isn't far behind. The USFA products are top quality, however. I highly recommend them if you can afford to drop $750+ per gun. The Italians will cost half that (figure $400-500 new) but will probably need a little work to smooth them out and make them reliable.

In terms of barrel length, 4-3/4" and 5-1/2" are the most common in cowboy action shooting. Some pards such as myself prefer the longer 7-1/2" barrels. I just like the look and feel of the long tubes, and the longer sight radius probably helps with accuracy at the (very rare) "challenging" pistol target. They definitely slow down your draw and reholstering, however, so real competitors stick with the shorter barrels. Heck, some guys go with "Sheriff's" models sporting little 3-1/2" barrels. Personally, I doubt there is much of a difference in speed between the 3-1/2", 4-3/4" and 5-1/2" barrels. Buy what you like and can find.

One last point -- if you ever want to compete in the "Classic Cowboy" category, you need a .40 caliber or larger (.38-40, .44 special/mag, .44-40, .45 Colt, etc.). No .38's or .32's are allowed. With that one exception, the .357/.38 is usually the best choice for beginners, as they are fairly light recoiling and ammo is cheap and plentiful.

Hafoc · March 3, 2006, 08:55 PM

I would have to agree with Father that the Ruger is a good beginner's choice. Mainly because they usually work just fine right out of the box, and they are very, very tough.

Rugers- New Vaquero if you're only using it for CAS, perhaps one of the adjustable-sight Blackhawks or Bisleys if you are going to use it as a woods or hunting gun too- will still serve you as spares for when your "main" gun breaks down, if you should want to go to something more historically correct later. Of course I had bad luck with my historically correct Colt reproductions-- got two bad ones in a row. So perhaps I expect more trouble with them than one should.

Hafoc · March 3, 2006, 09:09 PM

Sorry, missed the rest of your questions...

The classic gunfighter's gun was the short barreled 4.75 incher. However, those became popular later on; earlier, the 5.5 and 7.5 inchers were standard.

They're informally known as Cavalry length, for the original 7.5s; Artillery length for the 5.5s, because the Army cut down original-length revolvers to issue to artillerists and other foot-soldier types; and the 4.75 as "Civillian length" because the military never issued it.

Personally, I think they would any of them work for you. If you go New Vaquero, you can get the .45 Colt in all three barrel lengths; the .357 in the two shorter ones only.

As for calibers, that's all that's available in the New Vaquero. Other revolvers are available in all sorts of calibers, too many to list, really. But if you want to shoot ammo that you can get at any sporting goods store, .357 Mag/.38 Special is easiest and cheapest; .45 Colt reasonably easy to find; and .44/40 a distant third.

In CAS you're going to want to shoot the same cartridge in your rifle as your revolvers if you can. You can get rifles and revolvers in all three of the cartridges I've mentioned, but the only one that's authentic for both would be the .44/40. .45 Colt was never offered in lever guns until fairly recently, and .38 Special/.357 Magnum didn't even exist in the Old West.

Of course, nothing in the rules says you need the same cartridge in your rifle as your handgun; you don't even need the same cartridge in both revolvers. However, I would advise that if you're going to go different, go VERY different. .45 Colt and .44/40 are pretty close in size, therefore easy to mistake one for the other when you're in a hurry-- and if you did, it would be Bad. If you DO have to go different cartridges in various of your weapons, it would probably be a BIT harder to mix up .357s and .44/40s than .44s and .45s, for example.

If you want to get into the historically accurate weapons, by all means do so. They're fascinating, and there's a selection out there that would make the old west gunfighters green with envy. However, aside from being generally considered less durable than the Rugers, many of your historical reproductions cost more. Another reason to consider the Rugers for your first try.

Personally, I think I'm gonna have to invest in a set of Schofields or Russians sooner or later; reproductions of the break-top Smith and Wesson revolvers of the Old West. It may well be you'd have to be crazy to mess with those, but.. I'm crazy.

BoneDigger · March 3, 2006, 09:25 PM

I appreciate all of the great advice. So, in ordewr to get into this CAS thing, I will actually need TWO pistols? Is that an absolute necessity? Also, is it a necessity to have a rifle and/or shotgun to do this?

As far as clothing is concerned, I like dressing up and I thought I could have some fun with this. But, I do have a question. I was thinking that since many of the "bad" guys in the old west were actually deserters from the "War of Northern Agression" and also some post war veterans (aka Quantrill's Raiders, etc.), would it be out of "character" to go with a mixture of old west and Confederate themes? For instance, I noticed that out of Cabelas you can order a holster belt with the CSA logo on the buckle. I already have a Confederate Infantry cap to go with it. Would wearing this along with typical "western" shirt and pants be considered OK, or does it have to be a Western type cowboy hat, etc.?

Lastly, anyone have any experience with the Cabelas brand of SA revolver? I could actually afford two of these, but don't want to buy them if they are junk. Who makes them for Cabelas? It looks like Ruger is the way to go, but if these are OK, well, maybe they are worth trying?

Todd

Old Dragoon · March 3, 2006, 11:37 PM

Which SA revolvers from Cabela's are you looking at. there are several.
I can speak for the '58 Remingtons from Cabela's I have at least one from Cabela's and they are made by Pietta.If what you are looking at is madeb ,by Pietta or Uberti then these are good MFG. Buying at cabela's is a good thing. if there are problems with the gun they will replace it.

Jim Watson · March 4, 2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

... in ordewr to get into this CAS thing, I will actually need TWO pistols? Is that an absolute necessity? Also, is it a necessity to have a rifle and/or shotgun to do this?

Yup. I figure more 'n half, probly three quarters of SASS match stages you will shoot all four guns. Three of them in the rest. You'd go through at least a box each of rifle and pistol ammo, half to a full box of scattergun shells in a normal club shoot.

Foks are pretty good about helping a tenderfoot get started, you can borry much of what you need, for a while, but sooner or later you got to pony up for an outfit.

The Cabelas sixguns ain't bad, they are just the usual Eyetalian SAA clones in plain finish, no case hardening or polished blue, and with brass straps; but they work well enough. If there is a Big 5 store around, they sell Marlin lever actions cheaper than about anybody. A Stoegers or Rooshin shotgun is plenty, most cowboys do themselves proud on their rifles and sixguns and cheap out on the less glamorous scattergun.

A forage cap and castoff uniform and work clothes and leather would be right authentic. Real frontiersmen didn't all dress like Wyatt.

Father Knows Best · March 4, 2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I figure more 'n half, probly three quarters of SASS match stages you will shoot all four guns. Three of them in the rest.

Where do you shoot, Jim? I've been shooting CAS for three years and I've shot a half dozen clubs in four states. In all that time I can remember exactly one stage, in one local match, that didn't use all four guns.

Quote:

Foks are pretty good about helping a tenderfoot get started, you can borry much of what you need, for a while, but sooner or later you got to pony up for an outfit.

Ditto. I tell people who are interested in CAS to just show up at a match with eye and ear protection and a positive attitude. Cowboys are almost universally friendly and evangelistic about their game. Someone will strap a gunbelt on you, stick some revolvers in it, and lead you to the line. I borrowed/shared guns for a half dozen matches before I finally had my own complete outfit. Like a lot of pards, I now intentionally bring extra guns and leather to every match so I can loan them to newbies who show up.

Quote:

A forage cap and castoff uniform and work clothes and leather would be right authentic. Real frontiersmen didn't all dress like Wyatt.

Ditto again. I know quite a few pards who dress at Indian Wars cavalry (in bright uniforms), or Indian Wars scouts in a ragtag mix of military and civilian clothing, or as Civil War vets complete with beat up and cast-off confederate and Union Army gear.

Father Knows Best · March 4, 2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hafoc

Rugers- New Vaquero if you're only using it for CAS, perhaps one of the adjustable-sight Blackhawks or Bisleys if you are going to use it as a woods or hunting gun too

The Blackhawks are fine guns, and the sights are certainly far superior to those on a Vaquero or New Vaquero. Keep in mind that if you have adjustable sights, however, the only category you are permitted to shoot in is "Modern." Adjustable sighted guns are not permitted in Traditional, Duelist, Gunfighter, Classic, etc. That's why I don't typically recommend them. If you have one, already, then by all means use it while you're deciding whether CAS is really for you. If you decide to stick with CAS, however, you will almost certainly want a fixed sight gun.

Also, every Bisley I've ever seen has fixed sights. Do they make adjustable sighted Bisleys? In any case, some people really like the Bisleys -- especially those that shoot duelist (one handed) style. Personally, I don't care for them. They just don't look right to my eye or feel right in my hand.

Jim Watson · March 4, 2006, 11:11 AM

Pops,

I am not a well traveled CASer and pretty occasional these days what with other stuff going on; but at the North Alabama Regulators, in a four or five stage day, there will be one stage that only calls for three guns.

Hafoc · March 4, 2006, 11:44 AM

Father,

I've had two Bisleys, both of which had adjustable sights. But good as they were, as engineering exercises, I sold them. They were just too big to suit me, I guess. The standard Blackhawk is hefty enough, in its usual frame size (which was designed for .44 Magnum, I believe) and the deeper Bisley grip makes them massive!

My first Bisley was a 7.5 inch .45 Colt, blued. Ruger still has those on their website, along with .44 and .357 magnums, and a 6.5 inch .22.

I traded it in on a stainless 5.5-inch, which is not in the catalog; it was a limited production thing.

They made a Bisley Vaquero in the old Vaquero line. That must be the fixed-sight model you remember seeing. They've discontinued the old Vaquero but still have it available until they sell them out. I don't know whether the Bisley Vaquero is also discontinued; I would presume so. In any case they haven't come out with a New Vaquero Bisley yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did-- assuming they ever get caught up with the demand for the standard New Vaqueros.

Father Knows Best · March 4, 2006, 03:56 PM

Jim, that's a great club you have there. I shot the Ambush at Cavern Cove back in '04, and it was great. I don't think I've ever been to a better match. I missed this last one, but hope to shoot it again this year.

"Nearly Nine Foot Ned", or whatever you call him, is my all time favorite CAS target....

BoneDigger · March 4, 2006, 03:58 PM

Again, thanks for the heads up on all of this. So, tell me what you think of the Beretta Stampede. Are they any good? Also, what about the Cimarron? Or, being that they are all made by Uberti/Beretta, are they all about the same? There are a lot of Old Vaqueros around for a good price, but I heart they have issues with size and with the loading port. Is this true?

Also, would the Marlin cowboy rifle in .44 be a good choice at around $350-$400?

The way I see it, I could have the following:

Stampede or Cimarron, .357 (or .45) x 2: $900
Marlin rifle, .44: $400
Holsters and belt: $100
Shotgun: $300
Clothing: $100

That's a total of around $1800. Does that sound about right?

Todd

Father Knows Best · March 4, 2006, 04:10 PM

That's a great starting rig. I've seen a few Stampedes, and they seem nice, but I haven't shot them. They do use a transfer bar safety, which allows you to carry them with all six chambers loaded (like a Ruger), but that's not an advantage that matters for CAS as SASS rules only permit five rounds, anyway. Some pards dislike the transfer bar systems because they add complexity (one more thing that can break on you and ruin a match).

I am not aware of any "size" or "loading gate" issues with Vaqueros. The original Vaqueros are indeed large guns -- larger than Colts. They may fit you just fine, though. You will only know by handling one. If you have big hands, you may prefer them. I know lots of ladies who use them just fine despite having small hands.

The only issues I know of involving Vaqueros are a tendency for undersize throats on the .45's. That issue was solved a few years ago, but there are some out there with tight throats. They are all .45's -- the .44's and .357's are fine. If you buy some used ones in .45 and they seem to have accuracy problems, check the throats. If they are undersized, a 'smith can ream them to proper specs for about $20. I wouldn't avoid Rugers on that account.

The Cimarrons are made by Uberti. Cimarron seems to do a pretty good job of weeding out the bad, so your odds of getting good ones are high. Better yet, Cimarron has excellent customer service. If anything is wrong with them, they'll fix it pronto.

The Marlin 94 cowboy in .44 is a great rifle, and that's a good price.

BoneDigger · March 4, 2006, 04:31 PM

One more question...

How hard is it getting into the cap and ball, BP type of shooting? Is it difficult to learn and is it recommended for CAS? I like the looks of the Cabelas guns, especially the 1858 New Army for $199, but I have never used a BP firearm. I could have two of these for about the price of one regular cartridge pistol. Suggested? Or should I stay with what I know, which is cartridge guns.

Todd

Old Dragoon · March 4, 2006, 05:07 PM

If you start with the BP you can buy cartridge conversions for the '58's and shoot both ways. At my club I shoot C & B and a conversion in Frontier Cartridge class cause both are allowed. Don't matter to me cause I just shoot for myself and do not compete.
It is a hoot to shoot C & B in these matches...and listen to all the SMOKE jokes and such.
One word of warning. Blackpowder is addictive.

Father Knows Best · March 4, 2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dragoon

One word of warning. Blackpowder is addictive.

Amen to that, brother! There's a reason that my SASS alias is "Mo' Smoke!" I shoot nothing but black powder in CAS. I shoot frontier cartridge, generally, but I also enjoy cap and ball.

There's not much to learn, really. If I can do it, anybody can.

eagle24 · March 4, 2006, 05:36 PM

Bonedigger, I just purchased a BP 1858 New Army from Cabelas. UPS shows it scheduled for delivery Tuesday. If you look at my posts here and on the other forum THR I think I asked nearly all the questions. My next purchase will be a cowboy cartridge gun. I've been looking at the Taurus Gaucho, Barretta Stampede, and the New Vaquero. I would recommend that you get your hands on them before purchasing one. They really have different feels and barrel length as well as caliber makes a big difference in how they balance. I'm leaning towards a 5-1/2" .45 colt model. They really feel good in my hand. I don't have any intention of getting into CAS right now or I would definitely consider a .357 for the light .38 sp recoil even though I like the balance of the .45's better. I also looked at a Uberti and was'nt all that crazy about it compared to the others. Of course it was much cheaper and may be functionally a very good gun. I also did'nt like the old vaquero because I really want the Colt style frame. The gun I'm really drooling over is the Color Case Stampede Deluxe with the walnut grips. But unless I want a divorce I'm gonna have to let the smoke clear from my last purchase before I do anything.

Jim Watson · March 4, 2006, 05:45 PM

BoneDigger, contrary to the other guys, I recommend a cart'ge gun for beginners. Managing a cap & ball takes some extra knowhow and it takes time the tenderfoot is better off spending getting acquainted and helping out on the range. I have seen some very discouraged shooters who thought a cheap C&B was the way to save money on startup.

The "issue" (hate that nancy word) with Old Vaquero (and other Ruger) loading gates is that the cylinder doesn't "Click" into alignment like a Colt or copy. If you turn the cylinder far enough to hear the hand click, you have gone too far to unload or reload. You have to watch what you are doing. The New Vaquero has a detent that lets you line 'er up by feel.

Uncle Jim
SASS #3879
N. Ala. Reg. #5

RoyP · March 4, 2006, 06:40 PM

I don't shoot cas,just like single action revolvers.Seeing how you are torn between the two(bp and cartridge)If given the chance to shoot one of the three which one would you go for?That should answer your question.Top navy 44cal BP.middle emf hartford model,45lc and bottom Uberti thunderer 375mag.I personally haven't only shot the navy once,just takes too much time to load.

BoneDigger · March 4, 2006, 08:38 PM

OK, I think the big draw for the Cap and Ball for me was the entry level price. I could buy two of those for the cost of one Ruger! But, I have to think that I would have a lot more fun at this point in my life, just buying a cartridge gun and practicing.

I have narrowed it down to either the Berreta Stampede, the Cimarron, or the Vaquero. I guess it's time to just go try them out and make a decision! I'll keep you guys posted...

Todd

James K · March 4, 2006, 09:50 PM

I don't do much CAS, but if you want a modern gun, go with Ruger. The only Colt clone (IMHO) that FEELS like an old Colt is the USFA. I can't tell you what it is, but I have probably handled and/or fired several hundred old Colt SA's at various times, and none of the other copies (including the 2-3 generation Colts) ever felt quite right until the USFA came along.

Jim

Hafoc · March 4, 2006, 09:52 PM

I doubt you'd go too far wrong with any of those. I do like my New Vaquero. The old ones are even tougher, as well as less costly at the moment. I've handled the Stampede, and it was just flat out the lovliest-finished revolver I'd ever handled. It had a very smooth action too. And I've always heard Cimmaron provides excellent products.

March 3, 2006, 05:04 PM	#1
BoneDigger Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 660	Need advice on a SA Revolver for CAS. I am thinking of getting into Cowboy Action Shooting. However, I do not presently own a SA revolver. I have the funds to purchase a revolver, but I have read so many good vs bad threads that I'm now dizzy. So, please answer the following questions so I can go buy a gun. I have an option toi buy a Vaquero (not new model) in SS, with holster for $400, if he still has it when I get back from this trip out of town. I also can buy a new gun. I could get an Uberti, Beretta, Taurus, Ruger, or Cimarron. So... 1) Which SA clone is the best for CAS? I cannot afford a Freedom Arms or Colt, so maybe one of the ones I mentioned? 2) I like authenticity, so I am shying away from the Ruger Vaquero, but I have also heard good things about these. 3) What length of barrel is best for CAS and is it useable as a "woods" weapon as well? 4) What caliber is best? I like authenticity, but I also need to be able to afford bullets. I like .45, but am open to suggestions. I have money in hand and just waiting to get replies before heading to the gun shop. Yes, I have done searches on both the web and this site, and that's why I am so confused. Can anybody spend my money for me... Todd in TX

March 3, 2006, 09:25 PM	#6
BoneDigger Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 660	Thanks guys!!! I appreciate all of the great advice. So, in ordewr to get into this CAS thing, I will actually need TWO pistols? Is that an absolute necessity? Also, is it a necessity to have a rifle and/or shotgun to do this? As far as clothing is concerned, I like dressing up and I thought I could have some fun with this. But, I do have a question. I was thinking that since many of the "bad" guys in the old west were actually deserters from the "War of Northern Agression" and also some post war veterans (aka Quantrill's Raiders, etc.), would it be out of "character" to go with a mixture of old west and Confederate themes? For instance, I noticed that out of Cabelas you can order a holster belt with the CSA logo on the buckle. I already have a Confederate Infantry cap to go with it. Would wearing this along with typical "western" shirt and pants be considered OK, or does it have to be a Western type cowboy hat, etc.? Lastly, anyone have any experience with the Cabelas brand of SA revolver? I could actually afford two of these, but don't want to buy them if they are junk. Who makes them for Cabelas? It looks like Ruger is the way to go, but if these are OK, well, maybe they are worth trying? Todd

March 4, 2006, 03:58 PM	#14
BoneDigger Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 660	Thanks again guys!!! Again, thanks for the heads up on all of this. So, tell me what you think of the Beretta Stampede. Are they any good? Also, what about the Cimarron? Or, being that they are all made by Uberti/Beretta, are they all about the same? There are a lot of Old Vaqueros around for a good price, but I heart they have issues with size and with the loading port. Is this true? Also, would the Marlin cowboy rifle in .44 be a good choice at around $350-$400? The way I see it, I could have the following: Stampede or Cimarron, .357 (or .45) x 2: $900 Marlin rifle, .44: $400 Holsters and belt: $100 Shotgun: $300 Clothing: $100 That's a total of around $1800. Does that sound about right? Todd

March 4, 2006, 04:31 PM	#16
BoneDigger Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 660	One more question... One more question... How hard is it getting into the cap and ball, BP type of shooting? Is it difficult to learn and is it recommended for CAS? I like the looks of the Cabelas guns, especially the 1858 New Army for $199, but I have never used a BP firearm. I could have two of these for about the price of one regular cartridge pistol. Suggested? Or should I stay with what I know, which is cartridge guns. Todd

March 4, 2006, 08:38 PM	#22
BoneDigger Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 660	Thanks... OK, I think the big draw for the Cap and Ball for me was the entry level price. I could buy two of those for the cost of one Ruger! But, I have to think that I would have a lot more fun at this point in my life, just buying a cartridge gun and practicing. I have narrowed it down to either the Berreta Stampede, the Cimarron, or the Vaquero. I guess it's time to just go try them out and make a decision! I'll keep you guys posted... Todd

March 3, 2006, 05:48 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Colt is not worth the extra money strictly as a shooter. I have one real Colt because it was available in trade for a gun I was not using, and one Cimarron clone. Rugers are big, strong, and well supported by the company and gunsmiths. They don't FEEL like a Colt, though. All the others are mass produced Colt clones and mutants. USFA has a good reputation and is intermediate in price between Colt and copies. You will find somebody happy with any, unhappy with any given brand. Go to some shoots, folks will let you try stuff out. A "woods weapon"? Against what threat? If for varmints, two and four legged, about any of the usual calibres and models will do. If for serious hunting of deer or larger, or for bear protection, it should be a .44 Magnum or overloaded .45, which means Ruger Old Vaquero or Blackhawk (to be shot in Modern Category with adjustable sights.) Any standard barrel length will do. The speed merchants use the shorter guns, the traditionalists use the long ones. Even a 4 3/4" SA is longer than most current service and defense revolvers, if you use if for a carry weapon. Bear in mind that unless your club offers the Working Cowboy division (not common) you will eventually need TWO sixguns to compete. You can borrow for a while but sooner or later... Also a pistol caliber lever or pump action rifle and a shotgun, double or Win 97 pump. And clothes. It is not a cheap sport. Go to www.sassnet.com and read the rules and visit the forum for lots of information.

March 3, 2006, 06:40 PM	#3
Father Knows Best Member Join Date: March 3, 2006 Posts: 22	The Ruger "New Vaquero" models look and feel a lot more "authentic" than the standard "Vaqueros." They are smaller and lighter, with Colt-size grip frames. Rugers in general are the almost universal choice of real "competitors" in the cowboy action game, as the Ruger design is very robust and reliable. There are also lots of aftermarket parts available. The best competition gun is probably the Ruger New Vaquero in .357 magnum with a 4-3/4" barrel. You shoot light "cowboy" .38 special loads out of it. It would make a decent woods gun, as it can handle hot .357 magnum loads. The New Vaquero is also available in .45 Colt, but ammo will be more expensive and the heavier bullets will recoil more, making you a little bit slower in all likelihood. Also, the "New Vaquero" in .45 Colt will not handle hot "Ruger only" loads. If you want to shoot the 300 grain hunting type .45 Colt loads, you need to stick with a Blackhawk or old model Vaquero, which has a larger and beefier frame and cylinder. If you insist on something more "authentic", you probably have to rule out the Taurus Gaucho and Beretta Stampede along with the Rugers, because like the Rugers, they use transfer bar safety systems. That leaves some Italian replicas, Colts and USFA. Colts are very expensive, and USFA isn't far behind. The USFA products are top quality, however. I highly recommend them if you can afford to drop $750+ per gun. The Italians will cost half that (figure $400-500 new) but will probably need a little work to smooth them out and make them reliable. In terms of barrel length, 4-3/4" and 5-1/2" are the most common in cowboy action shooting. Some pards such as myself prefer the longer 7-1/2" barrels. I just like the look and feel of the long tubes, and the longer sight radius probably helps with accuracy at the (very rare) "challenging" pistol target. They definitely slow down your draw and reholstering, however, so real competitors stick with the shorter barrels. Heck, some guys go with "Sheriff's" models sporting little 3-1/2" barrels. Personally, I doubt there is much of a difference in speed between the 3-1/2", 4-3/4" and 5-1/2" barrels. Buy what you like and can find. One last point -- if you ever want to compete in the "Classic Cowboy" category, you need a .40 caliber or larger (.38-40, .44 special/mag, .44-40, .45 Colt, etc.). No .38's or .32's are allowed. With that one exception, the .357/.38 is usually the best choice for beginners, as they are fairly light recoiling and ammo is cheap and plentiful.

March 3, 2006, 08:55 PM	#4
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	I would have to agree with Father that the Ruger is a good beginner's choice. Mainly because they usually work just fine right out of the box, and they are very, very tough. Rugers- New Vaquero if you're only using it for CAS, perhaps one of the adjustable-sight Blackhawks or Bisleys if you are going to use it as a woods or hunting gun too- will still serve you as spares for when your "main" gun breaks down, if you should want to go to something more historically correct later. Of course I had bad luck with my historically correct Colt reproductions-- got two bad ones in a row. So perhaps I expect more trouble with them than one should.

March 3, 2006, 09:09 PM	#5
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	Sorry, missed the rest of your questions... The classic gunfighter's gun was the short barreled 4.75 incher. However, those became popular later on; earlier, the 5.5 and 7.5 inchers were standard. They're informally known as Cavalry length, for the original 7.5s; Artillery length for the 5.5s, because the Army cut down original-length revolvers to issue to artillerists and other foot-soldier types; and the 4.75 as "Civillian length" because the military never issued it. Personally, I think they would any of them work for you. If you go New Vaquero, you can get the .45 Colt in all three barrel lengths; the .357 in the two shorter ones only. As for calibers, that's all that's available in the New Vaquero. Other revolvers are available in all sorts of calibers, too many to list, really. But if you want to shoot ammo that you can get at any sporting goods store, .357 Mag/.38 Special is easiest and cheapest; .45 Colt reasonably easy to find; and .44/40 a distant third. In CAS you're going to want to shoot the same cartridge in your rifle as your revolvers if you can. You can get rifles and revolvers in all three of the cartridges I've mentioned, but the only one that's authentic for both would be the .44/40. .45 Colt was never offered in lever guns until fairly recently, and .38 Special/.357 Magnum didn't even exist in the Old West. Of course, nothing in the rules says you need the same cartridge in your rifle as your handgun; you don't even need the same cartridge in both revolvers. However, I would advise that if you're going to go different, go VERY different. .45 Colt and .44/40 are pretty close in size, therefore easy to mistake one for the other when you're in a hurry-- and if you did, it would be Bad. If you DO have to go different cartridges in various of your weapons, it would probably be a BIT harder to mix up .357s and .44/40s than .44s and .45s, for example. If you want to get into the historically accurate weapons, by all means do so. They're fascinating, and there's a selection out there that would make the old west gunfighters green with envy. However, aside from being generally considered less durable than the Rugers, many of your historical reproductions cost more. Another reason to consider the Rugers for your first try. Personally, I think I'm gonna have to invest in a set of Schofields or Russians sooner or later; reproductions of the break-top Smith and Wesson revolvers of the Old West. It may well be you'd have to be crazy to mess with those, but.. I'm crazy.

March 3, 2006, 11:37 PM	#7
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Which SA revolvers from Cabela's are you looking at. there are several. I can speak for the '58 Remingtons from Cabela's I have at least one from Cabela's and they are made by Pietta.If what you are looking at is madeb ,by Pietta or Uberti then these are good MFG. Buying at cabela's is a good thing. if there are problems with the gun they will replace it.

March 4, 2006, 11:11 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Pops, I am not a well traveled CASer and pretty occasional these days what with other stuff going on; but at the North Alabama Regulators, in a four or five stage day, there will be one stage that only calls for three guns.

March 4, 2006, 11:44 AM	#12
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	Father, I've had two Bisleys, both of which had adjustable sights. But good as they were, as engineering exercises, I sold them. They were just too big to suit me, I guess. The standard Blackhawk is hefty enough, in its usual frame size (which was designed for .44 Magnum, I believe) and the deeper Bisley grip makes them massive! My first Bisley was a 7.5 inch .45 Colt, blued. Ruger still has those on their website, along with .44 and .357 magnums, and a 6.5 inch .22. I traded it in on a stainless 5.5-inch, which is not in the catalog; it was a limited production thing. They made a Bisley Vaquero in the old Vaquero line. That must be the fixed-sight model you remember seeing. They've discontinued the old Vaquero but still have it available until they sell them out. I don't know whether the Bisley Vaquero is also discontinued; I would presume so. In any case they haven't come out with a New Vaquero Bisley yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did-- assuming they ever get caught up with the demand for the standard New Vaqueros.

March 4, 2006, 03:56 PM	#13
Father Knows Best Member Join Date: March 3, 2006 Posts: 22	Jim, that's a great club you have there. I shot the Ambush at Cavern Cove back in '04, and it was great. I don't think I've ever been to a better match. I missed this last one, but hope to shoot it again this year. "Nearly Nine Foot Ned", or whatever you call him, is my all time favorite CAS target....

March 4, 2006, 04:10 PM	#15
Father Knows Best Member Join Date: March 3, 2006 Posts: 22	That's a great starting rig. I've seen a few Stampedes, and they seem nice, but I haven't shot them. They do use a transfer bar safety, which allows you to carry them with all six chambers loaded (like a Ruger), but that's not an advantage that matters for CAS as SASS rules only permit five rounds, anyway. Some pards dislike the transfer bar systems because they add complexity (one more thing that can break on you and ruin a match). I am not aware of any "size" or "loading gate" issues with Vaqueros. The original Vaqueros are indeed large guns -- larger than Colts. They may fit you just fine, though. You will only know by handling one. If you have big hands, you may prefer them. I know lots of ladies who use them just fine despite having small hands. The only issues I know of involving Vaqueros are a tendency for undersize throats on the .45's. That issue was solved a few years ago, but there are some out there with tight throats. They are all .45's -- the .44's and .357's are fine. If you buy some used ones in .45 and they seem to have accuracy problems, check the throats. If they are undersized, a 'smith can ream them to proper specs for about $20. I wouldn't avoid Rugers on that account. The Cimarrons are made by Uberti. Cimarron seems to do a pretty good job of weeding out the bad, so your odds of getting good ones are high. Better yet, Cimarron has excellent customer service. If anything is wrong with them, they'll fix it pronto. The Marlin 94 cowboy in .44 is a great rifle, and that's a good price.

March 4, 2006, 05:07 PM	#17
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	If you start with the BP you can buy cartridge conversions for the '58's and shoot both ways. At my club I shoot C & B and a conversion in Frontier Cartridge class cause both are allowed. Don't matter to me cause I just shoot for myself and do not compete. It is a hoot to shoot C & B in these matches...and listen to all the SMOKE jokes and such. One word of warning. Blackpowder is addictive.

March 4, 2006, 05:36 PM	#19
eagle24 Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 36	Bonedigger, I just purchased a BP 1858 New Army from Cabelas. UPS shows it scheduled for delivery Tuesday. If you look at my posts here and on the other forum THR I think I asked nearly all the questions. My next purchase will be a cowboy cartridge gun. I've been looking at the Taurus Gaucho, Barretta Stampede, and the New Vaquero. I would recommend that you get your hands on them before purchasing one. They really have different feels and barrel length as well as caliber makes a big difference in how they balance. I'm leaning towards a 5-1/2" .45 colt model. They really feel good in my hand. I don't have any intention of getting into CAS right now or I would definitely consider a .357 for the light .38 sp recoil even though I like the balance of the .45's better. I also looked at a Uberti and was'nt all that crazy about it compared to the others. Of course it was much cheaper and may be functionally a very good gun. I also did'nt like the old vaquero because I really want the Colt style frame. The gun I'm really drooling over is the Color Case Stampede Deluxe with the walnut grips. But unless I want a divorce I'm gonna have to let the smoke clear from my last purchase before I do anything.

March 4, 2006, 05:45 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	BoneDigger, contrary to the other guys, I recommend a cart'ge gun for beginners. Managing a cap & ball takes some extra knowhow and it takes time the tenderfoot is better off spending getting acquainted and helping out on the range. I have seen some very discouraged shooters who thought a cheap C&B was the way to save money on startup. The "issue" (hate that nancy word) with Old Vaquero (and other Ruger) loading gates is that the cylinder doesn't "Click" into alignment like a Colt or copy. If you turn the cylinder far enough to hear the hand click, you have gone too far to unload or reload. You have to watch what you are doing. The New Vaquero has a detent that lets you line 'er up by feel. Uncle Jim SASS #3879 N. Ala. Reg. #5

March 4, 2006, 09:50 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't do much CAS, but if you want a modern gun, go with Ruger. The only Colt clone (IMHO) that FEELS like an old Colt is the USFA. I can't tell you what it is, but I have probably handled and/or fired several hundred old Colt SA's at various times, and none of the other copies (including the 2-3 generation Colts) ever felt quite right until the USFA came along. Jim

March 4, 2006, 09:52 PM	#24
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	I doubt you'd go too far wrong with any of those. I do like my New Vaquero. The old ones are even tougher, as well as less costly at the moment. I've handled the Stampede, and it was just flat out the lovliest-finished revolver I'd ever handled. It had a very smooth action too. And I've always heard Cimmaron provides excellent products.